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What was the dogs and guns about?


fooledagainII
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Java Jive

...it was Geer that trained the German short-haired dogs and the dobermans to be attack dogs. In fact, one of them was so vicious and uncontrollable that as soon as VPW died, they packed that dog overseas to go be with his Frankenstein creator....not even Paula Butler could contain that dog...

I'm still amazed by this. Do anyone know why there was a need for attack dogs? What was they guarding? Did anyone have any close call with the dogs?

Also was it common knowledge about the dogs? Why were people carrying guns (I read this in another thread that someone keeping Don W. from entering with a gun)?

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Apparently, Mr. G**r thought someone might launch an assault on Intl HQ.

I remember seeing the dog that was shipped to him. It was penned up on the hog farm at RC when we visited there, awaiting reunion with its master. It was one of the German Shorthairs, normally a good breed of hunting dog, and had such a look in its eye, it gave me the shivers. Our guide told us nobody but CG could handle it. That dog did some serious snarling, making steady eye contact the whole time. There was no doubt in my mind it wanted to bite the azz off every one of us.

I thought it was strange. One usually sees dobies and German Shepherd dogs and Rotties trained as guard dogs. However, I think you can train a dog to be a guard dog without making them unremittingly vicious. I mean what good is it if it attacks everyone except the trainer? What if it gets loose and bites the mailman or a child or the trainer's wife?

This just smacked of weirdness to me.

At the time, I thought the dog might be possessed!

WG

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Was Chr*s G. the only one with a guard dog? How did they (TWI) explain that... And who was the "lucky" believer that got the job to feed and clean up after the attack dog(s).

So whatever the "need" was for attack dogs... did that "need" disappear once CG left?

The only thing I can think of way of an explanation is "...we have to guard the Word... or... we just got Arnold the pig and Babe to take the class and they're being guarded from devil spirits...". I mean, come on... guard dogs where people are learning to be Christian leaders. What on earth could be that valuable? What makes it really weird is that I bet nothing was ever said to him or anyone else that had guard dogs, that this action is way over the top, because of the mental games they played...

Not to mention if some of the top leaders were "packing" heat to boot. This was like bizzaro world or something. Where was this in the brochure/green card "...We're a research ministry with wonderful loving, kind people... but just in case, we've got guard dogs and we're packing heat!"

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Another vague, really vague memory....

I once had a friend in the 7th WC who told me something about them trying to breed Dobermans and that the first litter came along right before something like the ROA and the mother got so upset she ATE HER BABIES! I had heard of rabbits doing that but dogs????

Just too weird. I don't think he was using the best breeding stock.

No idea what happened to any of them other than Tick Jr, whom I mentioned before.

The same friend also told me of a very expensive German shorthair CG or somebody got VP. He took it to Rome City and it got into the hen house and killed a bunch of chickens. So he shot it.

Know how to cure a dog of chasing/killing chickens? Remember that chapter in Romans where it talks about being tied to a dead body? Tie a dead chicken around a dog's neck for a couple days, and it will won't want to go near them again.

Honest. I did not make that up.

WG

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I think the entire dog issue in TWI was messed up, and having a dangerous attack dog that was too insane for anyone but Chris Geer as it's been described somehow seems appropriate even though it was messed up.

This is my take on how the whole thing with the dogs was. Some of it based on what I've heard of VPW and his dogs and some based on my small splinter group that used border collies and sheep to simulate what Dr. did with the shorthairs.

The whole friggin point of the dogs before the attack dogs was that VPW trained people and that the template for his teaching ministry was how he trained the dogs. YUCH.

You see, in my splinter group it turned into a real heady mix of teachers and worthless dogs who existed to serve the master's desires. YUCH.

The whole thing was a real life analogy for how TWI leadership treated people, and they know it, it was never hidden, it was even rejoiced in. YUCH.

It appears to me that between the creeping paranoia of assassination, the corrupt consciences of Geer and Wierwille, and the breakup of the ministry, that dangerous attack dogs was a sadly inevitable result of the insanity.

(edited for clarity)

Edited by JeffSjo
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maybe the dogs were gaurding the millions in gold and silver in those underground vaults?

They were probably kept just in case the Pope showed up with his aircraft carrier.

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It's my opinion that they had the guns and dogs because they knew that what they were involved in was wrong and weren't taking any chances on having the deal go south. If a big drug dealer packs heat, no one is the least bit surprised. Same thing, really.

Lot's of big money at stake there.

A friend of mine was telling people in his area (quite vocally) about some inconsistencies he had seen at HQ that he found alarming. He quickly had armed thugs appear at his door(hundreds of miles from HQ) and tell him, in no uncertain terms, he had better keep his mouth shut if he knew what was good for him. This was in the late 1970's.

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Geer was/is a whack job...the idea that he would train killer dogs for bodyguards fits like a foot in a sock...he probably got the idea from studying the life of Adolph Hitler...

While I was in residence, My wife and I shared a bathroom with Geer and his wife (one bathroom placed between two rooms)...I had more than a few experiences with this guy...he always had a look in his eye like he was about to plunge a knife through your heart...I never saw him smile...

the guy would have been a great contribution to the third reich...a true nazi at heart.

Attack dogs?...Hell, Geer would kill you with his bare hands if you gave him half a reason...and he's get off on it.

Edited by GrouchoMarxJr
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Just one word - PATHOLOGY

These were rabid, untreated, uncontrolled, SICK muthaf#$%ers, WAAAAY sick.

No need to try to make sense of any of it. It doesn't make any. These guys should all have been locked in a rubber room somewhere instead of "leading" some "ministry".

Yes, sad to say, it WAS a waste. A complete, utter waste of our time, committing our very lives to textbook whackjobs...

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Just one word - PATHOLOGY

These were rabid, untreated, uncontrolled, SICK muthaf#$%ers, WAAAAY sick.

No need to try to make sense of any of it. It doesn't make any. These guys should all have been locked in a rubber room somewhere instead of "leading" some "ministry".

Yes, sad to say, it WAS a waste. A complete, utter waste of our time, committing our very lives to textbook whackjobs...

Yeah, but look at the bright side George...most of us got some pretty snazzy T-shirts out of the deal...

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...at 5am on a cool Kansas morning...with the smell of the meat packing plant in the air...

...and there was Geer, as I passed by his room...cleaning his gun with clenched teeth.

He just loved the smell of gunpowder in the morning...

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To see the words "attack dogs" distresses me somewhat. There was a dog by the name of "TJ" which stood for "Tomato Juice. He was named that, because he had gotten into a couple of skunks, and tomato juice is a "home remedy for getting rid of skunk stink. Apparently TJ had gotten into some skunks. I know, because for fourteen years, I owned the grand son of "TJ", and he was a wonderful and faithful dog. AND, he too got into three skunks during his lifetime.

TJ was in fact trained by a professional to do protective work, and after his training, Chris Geer, who had been educated by the trainers, became TJ's handler. I knew TJ personally, and got to see him demonstrate his abilities a few of times as Chris Geer, our Corps Coordinator at Gunnison showed us his skills. TJ was trained to protect and not to attack. During one demonstration, Chris had one of my Corps Brothers, Lee, pretend to sneak up on Chris in a "menacing way" while Chris casually explained to us what would happen while holding TJ on a leash. Even as Lee was still unseen but creeping down the steps from the upstairs area above where we were having dinner, TJ seemed to know that some menace was approaching from that area. As Lee entered the room where we were, TJ never took his eyes off of him. As Lee got closer, TJ began the low rumble of a growl. Chris said to TJ; "Watch him, watch him..."

Chris explained to us that TJ was trained to only "lunge" when the attacker was advancing in a aggressive manner, but would instantly back off when the attacker backed off. And so, as Lee was only about five feet away and Chris had the leash very well shortened up, Chris told Lee to lunge forward yet "not too close". We all laughed nervously, including Lee. Lee then lunged forward at Chris, and TJ then lunged at Lee while Chris held TJ from actually grabbing Lee. For about ten seconds TJ barked and endeavored to "eat Lee" while Lee continued to be aggressive towards Chris Geer, waving his hands and such. Then, Chris told Lee to back off and stop acting in a menacing manner, which Lee, most happily did. The moment Lee retreated, TJ backed off and sat down and nervously eyed Lee. Chris then used the command; "Out!" and TJ returned in "heel position" to Chris's side. THEN, Chris said to Lee; "Now Lee, if you are up for it, I want you to reach out and pet TJ". Of course we all who were watching (about 45 of us) all said at the same time; "Whoaaa!" And Lee, a fairly fearless sort of guy reached out tentatively and began to pet TJ. TJ in turned became all smiles, wagging his tail, and Lee and TJ became friends. Mind you, Chris had asked if anyone wanted to volunteer to do what Lee did. He was not made to do it. Chris told us that if no one wanted to do it, then the demonstration wouldn't proceed. For us in attendance, it was a cool learning experience concerning dog training, and highly entertaining! We were amazed at how well trained TJ was.

Yes, TJ was trained to be a protective dog, but not an "attack dog". Many times at Gunnison, TJ would be at large running the entire grounds (the breed needs to run like you and I need oxygen), and he never hurt a soul. One day, while I was fishing the Gunnison River behind Dr. Wierwille's cabin, I hooked a nice Brown Trout of about sixteen inches. While fighting this fish, a brown streak to my left flew through the air and landed in the water and went swimming toward my splashing trout at the end of my line. When TJ got there, he was trying to grab it with his mouth, and I was cussing up a storm telling TJ to "get the hell away from my fish you lousy piece of dang mongrel"! And then, TJ knocked the fish off my line, and TJ swam to shore. I continued cussing him until I heard a deep laugh coming from shore. It was Dr. Wierwille laughing and slapping his knee at the humor of it all. He said; "Piece of dang mongrel huh? Haha!" He seemed pretty tickled by it, and I too began to laugh...

Now why did VP need a protective dog? I don't know. Just "to be cool" maybe to boost his image of importance, or, he was afraid someone would kill him. There is some story about someone trying to shoot him once. But that aside, I knew TJ during his prime, and he only acted aggressive during that demonstration incident and two others just like it as far as I know. My dog "Mr. Starbuck Von Der Weg (Von Der Weg means "Of The Way" in German), grandson of TJ was wonderful. And, he protected my kids on a number of occasions from other dogs, as well as one time a scroungy dude approached our car and was trying to get my kids to unlock the car door so that he could "talk to them" while we were within eyesight inside a store. But what he did get when Starbuck figured out from the back of the station wagon what was going on was a face full of snarling dog inside the window! And that guy ran off as I ran out to the car because of what I had seen through the store window! Cool that was, and I was glad that TJ's blood flowed in my dog's veins...

Guns and a protective dog? I never could figure that out. I always figured like Romans says; "With God before you, who can be against you?" I always figured God's protection was good enough. But, maybe God wanted me to have Starbuck for just that one occasion when I hadn't paid good enough attention to my kids. Hey. No apologizing for CG and VP here, but it seems sometimes, at least in this case, that some of the negative things in The Way get blown out of proportion a bit, and in the case of the "attack dogs", I know the score on that one, and the dog thing wasn't all that evil. They were great bird dogs also...

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Welcome back Jonny!...haven't seen you for awhile... :evildenk:

Whatever got "blown out of proportion a bit"...it wasn't my evaluation of Chris Geer...this guy was a bonfide nazi whacko!

as sociopathic as Vic himself...as coldhearted as a ticket taker at an X rated theatre...this guy could slit your throat at 6am and by 6:15 be eating bacon and eggs...

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Thanx for the welcome back Groucho. I had been sentenced to the outer reaches of cyber purgatory for being a bad boy here. But, looks like my one month sentence is up. The other person with whom I squabbled should be showing up here sometime soon I guess...

Now, I wasn't commenting on CG or VP, I was just telling of my experiences with one of the dogs, TJ, the one who received training as a protective dog...

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TJ was indeed "Tick Junior".

I'm glad to hear he was such a wonderful, humorous fellow.

Hard to believe that if he was glaring at you out of a cage, growling that low deep growl some dogs learn to growl from their b*lls, telling you in no uncertain terms he knows where your carotids are located.

But he was undoubtedly trained to be that way. Scarey.

WG

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About the guns, there's a lot I'm not sure about.

What I DO know, is that vpw claimed (in TW:LiL) that some people tried to kill him in twi's early days,

but he never said more than that-who, when, why...

In the POP, cg said he told vpw that he'd been prepared to stop assassination attempts and act as a

human shield against bullets for vpw,

as if vpw was the US President and cg was the Secret Service.

I'd wonder about it, but I've heard vpw was fine with people playing "Hail to the Chief" when he

entered a room....

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Personally, I think Vic showing us how well trained his dogs were (and yes I saw a couple demonstrations) was a way to show how in charge of things he was as the MOG. It was just one more thing he was great at, you know?

It was also used as a mark of prestige. All royalty go around with their favorite hound at their side, even in normally inappropriate settings. So did Vic.

It certainly was also used as training tool in that he said people (especially children) were much like dogs in the way they responded. They need an alpha to obey, clear and consistent rules to follow, treats if they do, and punishment if they don't. While this may be true as a starting point, it mostly tells me how Vic viewed most other people around him... as something to be ordered about and controlled at his command.

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