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I forget who it was, perhaps Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, but at any rate this was a person who was high high society and known for etiquette, so it was probably one of the two. This is a story my mom impressed upon me: This individual was hosting a banquet and a famous person was the guest of honor, a person of humble origins who did not know the finer points of etiquette. At any rate, this guest, after the first course has been served, picked up his napkin and carefully tied it around his neck!!!!!! The hostess, without raising an eyebrow, did the exact same thing and so did the other guests. That's manners, folks. Oh, and class, too. wG

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

I've been thinking about my perception of TWI leadership and sadly some of my impressions from the early days were far more relevant than I knew at the time. Playing politics to be in control. Handling serious biblical issues with spin, not substance. Deliberately destroying folks' lives for petty and twisted reasons. Deliberately demoralizing people into NOT THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. Turning a group of wonderful vital people into a group with about as much life as an ancient Egyptian crypt. Encouraging and thriving on the unthinking adulation that even a false reputation can bring them. Billing themselves as "THE MAN." Yes, even Rosie. The thing is that sometimes I wonder if these very human problems are still with us. Learned habits and feelings can be a real b1tch to deal with. And people still have a tendency to play politics and build a rep, not just in TWI, but even here possibly. I'd like to throw in just for good measure, please don't let folks who may still have these TWI patterns come after you in a multi-website feud of some kind. They probably are capable of wearing you down, they have a lot of practice doing so.

and I will have 5 M post on this beloved GreaseSpot Cafe (about half of them WITH coffee)

Excellent - thanks for posting that.

Agreed.

O.K., How about your daughter as commander-in-chief and Ham as Generalisimo. I think the great squirrel in a Patton or MacArthur get up would make a great generalisimo.

Dear Darrell Bailey, I have no doubt as to your good intentions or the sincerity of your searching. But as it pertains to TWI doctrine many of your statements are too generalized for me to form any opinion other than I would tend to believe in your sincerity. And many, many specific doctrinal points have been bandied about for years here at GSC by folks who hold many, many different beliefs. A lot of that work and history has exposed what IMO is simple plagiarism, vainglory, and strife in Wierwille's actions even as he set up TWI. And I don't seem to have met many people who seem to be able to consider that point of view scripturally honestly. It seems to me that it was inevitable that due to Wierwille's intentions TWI was doomed to be rotten from the get-go. And as the Lord has promised to burn up lousy workmanship and take revenge on those who have despitefully used and ruined people financially and in any manner to sate their own piggish lusts that your dry and intellectual manner seems to me to fall a bit short of dealing with what really was going on among Wierwille's kids back in the day. Not to mention the inevitable leaven that has leavened the whole lump. BUT WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK IS "BABY" AND "BATHWATER" (added in editing) (I had to log-off for a bit)(Oh yeah...sigh...spelling too) It really seems to me that without complete honesty on the part of those who attempt to keep the Word alive TWI style that folks are pretty much being set up to fail in their endeavor. If someone is unwilling to take a real honest look at what the epistles say are the consequences of Wierwille's actions that they are unqualified to discern between "The baby and the bathwater." And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly repudiate all the hidden, yet cruel methods of leadership that they are almost certainly carrying on with all those manipulative and oppressive mannerisms. And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly handle each and every single legitimate complaint that many folks justly have that all their claims as to "great biblical truths" seem likely to be just more self-serving spin.

I could be wrong, but the website looks like the aftermath of some kind of civil war..

Same old story ---same old song and dance. I talk to just about everyone that I meet and I have NEVER met anyone, anywhere as fearful as wayfers or the offshoots when it comes to discussing their spiritual beliefs--- Heck I know crack addicts that deal more honestly. So far the representatives of SOWERS are proving by their absence what little mettle they have and how tiny their beliefs are.

I have a really, really bad feeling and suspicion.. I'll have to check on it..

Leadership has great manners. Elizabeth Post would be proud. Hannibal Lecter has good manners too.

I don't know if twi is worth talking about or not. Talking about them doesn't make them go away. Sometimes talking about it diffuses the pressure. Sometimes it doesn't.

"leadership" thought that saying some simple catch phrase would replace sound advice or wise counsel. It was easy for them to say "trust God" and walk away and say the person was not believing God if things did not work out. They were also stupid enough to think that way corp "training" had some value in the real world and made them qualified to give advise to anybody that may have a problem. twi had a variety of scams going such as; wow program, way corps, outreach athleats, way homes, various classes etc... I am embarrassed to admit that I fell for some of there scams. It is sometimes hard to admit that you were wrong. I thought more highly of "twi leadership" than I should have and alot more than they deserve.

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Thanks so much, all of you. :)

I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it. a lot of things are milling around in my head from what I've read so far, but the most significant is how easily and how deeply organizations like twi can pull in the walking wounded and condition them to be cannon fodder.

I went and read it just now... don't be sorry excie!

thank you sweet potato i just apologized to you on another thread i feel bad

ok ok, so we'll say it's a work of fiction based on a true story with all the "negative" parts left out, unlike Kristin's book seriously though, my point was they can't have it both ways.

Maybe "Rita" should click on this link.

It may not just be "Innies" posting such reviews. I have seen posts here that reflect such reasoning by people who have claimed not to have read the book. It could be people out of TWI but who are still into VP and TWI doctrine.

When I first read her book, I knew that if ever needed I could testify to some of the details she mentions from that 8th corps residence year at Emporia, even a couple of things she mentions about her apprentice year in Indiana (I was at Indy working on my work days off at limb HQ.) Perhaps that will never be needed. But more importantly, in my own mind some of these details helped immensely in making her experience, as she wrote about it, more real to me. Just as important was the tone in which she wrote; i.e. non-bitter because she wrote about it kind of as she were living it. Also, I would ask those who posted as such that, if they were horribly abused...let's even make it outside of TWI if they like...would they forget THAT? Glad to see you finally got the book. I know what happened to her may seem like nothing new to some people on GS who were abused or know someone who was abused. And I had not been denying that such abuse might have happened, but it can be a big step from might have to knowing it did happen. Winter solstice present, though??? <_<

"Submitting" such as Kristen had to do, to stay in "fellowhip"; to prove that she was still "spiritually mature", was apparently so established that she did not outwardly question what she was asked/told to do, and in turn submitted any doubts that arose in her mind to the doctrine that if the man of God says it's OK, then it's good. But I find it interesting, according to what she wrote, that a flag went up right away when she came across VPW's writings on Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that finding and reading those writings (I'd sure like to hear more from her on this) helped her realize that she was being abused. Anyway, I'm sure that starter of this thread could say a lot about those writings.

and some older ones too. Just kidding, Rascal, I don't really believe you are 900 years old. On the male side, that goes along with the term "loosening up".

Which was a form of flattery. Who in TWI would not wish to consider themselves spiritually mature? The first time I heard that load of crap, I pulled out the verse about all being given an equal measure of spirit. Then it became a "matter of faith." That load of crap was countered by my "belief" that if you had to flatter and offer fake relationships to get people to come on board and become spiritually mature, perhaps what TWI was offering wasn't all that desirable.

How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it? I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did. WG

Addressing why most folks didn`t hear about the teachings that allowed the treatment such as Kristin recieved. Of COURSE one wouldn`t have heard of any *official* teaching. That took careful chosing of whom they wished to victimize. It took careful grooming to prepare their intended target. They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ, all things being lawful to them which are in Christ, all parts of the body being equal, all the women in the kingdom belonging to the king and the mogs were our modern version of kings....eating meat or not was ok as long as you weren`t a stumbling block to your brother. There were deeper meanings that the general believers weren`t mature enough to handle, so ut was all kept lock box so that you didn`t cause your brother to stumble. It was planned, and it was sick, and it was all about using the scriptures and God`s name to facillitate the sating of their depraved lusts and filling their bellies. These guys were scum.

Since you have made it clear you are giving your account from your own point of view, I think you observation is reasonable and realistic. I was in the 8th corps, as Kristen was, and for most of my corps time I didn't see or hear of anythng about women having to "submit" to the man of God in the way that Kristen was made to, or of the idea that corps men were supposed to "loosen up" sexually, as VPW presumably told LCM. The lockbox was kept pretty tightly closed. I was on our corps camping trip (the one where we carried our live chicken dinners) in March 1978, where one night I was in a two person coed tent, and I know neither one of us had the slightest thought of anything sexual. On the other hand, Kristen's account in her book tells of the abuse that she suffered well before she went into the corps. As for me, the "loosening up" idea filtered down to me during the fall of 1979 in my final residence year at HQ in the form of a little incident. It was very minor and certainly not abuse, but as I wrote in Kristen's blog, it because one little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen accounts of COULD have happened. Speaking of those going WOW, at ROA 1978, those of us corps who were going WOW the coming year were called into the woods for a meeting and told to watch ourselves, because there had already been several abortions TWI had to pay for.

I'm not saying it didn't happen all over, I (personally) saw less of it once I got about an hour away. It seemed to be more rampant among those who had gone WOW and kept going back WOW and those who went into the corp. The rank and file of us who had kids and were just living weren't like that. I guess I got a reputation for not being approachable. I saw it happen with others. It simply didn't happen with me.

Keith, my husband was a college WOW in Bloomington in the mid 70s. Others: I haven't read the book and probably won't. It seems as if most of the major abuse took place in the upper ranks - not that the lower ranks didn't try. Although it seemed to me that the closer you were to a limb, the more structured things were. When we went from living down the street from limb headquarters to over an hour away, things lightened up considerably. I talked to our corp grad branch leaders about the sex thing and they said they were unaware of what was going on with leadership. As far as the teaching about sex in the corp was that penetration wasn't allowed, but other means of pleasuring one another were ok. I thought it was a pretty fine line, but since I wasn't so "spiritually developed", I just called it wrong.

I know it wasn't me. I left TWI then, but I didn't leave Bloomington. I was born here, and and except for college, and WOW, have been here since 1955 when I was born. I'm thankful that most people did thing I belittling Kristen. It was a good book and would be useful for anyone who has gone through any kind of religious abuse.

Groucho, I'm pretty sure he didn't sniff out the hidden reference I had to him on another thread in this forum..... In reference to a remark I made early in this thread about my only problem with the book, yes, it is getting worn, but still together. I have ben re reading it, trying to keep in mind that it is not just about Kristen.

I know someone who left Bloomington at that time, but you can't be him if you left then, because he came up to Indy where i saw a lot of him during my apprentice corps year. I don't think you are belittling Kristen at all. Whether it was God working in her heart, or her better judgement, it was eclipsed by having to do what God says, which in her case was what the man of God said. From her point of view, saying no to staying in, or specifically to what she was told to do, was walking away from God.

I haven’t read every post in this thread so forgive me if I repeat some things that have already been said. I just finished “Losing the Way” and found it well written and it definitely of interest. My biggest problem while reading it was trying to identify some of the people who she talked about. But I left early, she would have just come to Bloomington, IN as I was leaving the ministry and the fellowships there. So there were a lot of people I wouldn’t have known. So much for my discussion of the writing of the book. As to her experiences, I really do stand amazed at what was going on that I didn’t know about. I am really very sorry that she had to go through any of this. No one should be treated like a thing. I hope I don’t sound like I’m belittling her with this next statement, because I don’t mean to. I’ve learn a lot about hearing from God since I left TWI and find that He works much more in our hearts than anywhere else. As I read through her accounts I found a great many places that I believe God was working in her heart to get her out of there, but because of her teaching and our idolatry of VPW she was talked out of it and even told she was devil possessed. It is so sad to see someone taken advantage of in the name of Christianity. I am so glad she managed to get out. I have a feeling that if I hadn’t left in the mid-seventies, I would still be there.

I had a little more reflection on this point, which I just expressed on the 8th corps thread. If we think about how someone nearby was hurting while we were having fun, self restraint wont be needed, or at least not as much.

An overdue response here; I think Oldies has a valid point, and that is what I was thinking of when I talked about Kristen's book not being a lecture. I really can't fault her in the least for the comment Oldies quoted.

I just got this book for a birthday present from a dear friend who is also ex-twi. She said it is great and she could not put it down. She finished it at 2am Sunday. I will join the discussion after reading it.

Thanks, Kristen. And thanks, again, Pawtucket, for keeping this site open and making stuff like this known to us. "Losing the Way" is a kind kind of touch from the Lord showing His righteous judgment because it removes the veneer of "hearsay" that so many deceptions hide behind, at whatever depth of the soul they reside. "Losing the Way" helps peel away the onion layers of deception that cloud the kindness of the soul. I think it will take for me many readings to "finish" it (if I ever will). I heard someone once say how the Lord wanted him to help ex-twi people, but he didn't really want to do that. He wanted his "new" ministry. (ex-twi people are so messy because of the depth of hurt and dirt that needs to be cleaned out.) And so many people were harmed by twi -- our families too were harmed by twi -- For my family my twi involvement made Jesus Christ look like a dangerous bad bet given my example of wagering my life and losing so dearly. This book for me is a resource to get back to the life of my soul pre-twi - pre-destruction. Back to when smiles weren't only for "face value" but sprang from happiness of the soul, where delight with God is possible. Thanks, again, Kris.

You've got that right!!! Take the gender of the victims out of the picture - and what's left is the insidious way they raped our souls.

And thank you Waysider for that incredibly descriptive and disgusting insight. :blink: I find it strange that one can be addicted to a cult but then again a workaholic is addicted to work and I've seen some athletes addicted to a sport or aspect of it. I think perhaps we as humans need some sort of structure or groove that we can fit into and move in without having to apply a great deal of thought or what we perceive as extreneous effort. After a while whatever we were doing in twi became our little groove and it made us feel good to be in that groove. It gave us a sense of accomplishment...even if we were standing still.

well, That is what started changing My mindset......AA, NA.......It was a new way of thinking. I had a very difficult time thinking differently, but going to those meetings really helped me change that. It presented me with new ways of thinking about God to. But just the every day living......being kind, considering other people and not making everything all about me. When I was in TWI, I was obsessed with being "someone"........being a great leader and maybe even some day being ordained. Oh My gosh, I so changed. I am so not the person I was when I was in TWI. Only God bring restoration to our lives....and this recovering addict is very thankful and grateful for the miracle of what has happened in my life.

No, I don't think they planned it. It just oozed from their pores like sweat from a Sumo wrestler.

So, do you think that VP et al were all back at Hdqtrs saying "let's target all those hippies because they are out of bounds with sex and drugs" they will be easy to draw into the fold? Was it a conscious effort on their part? Or do you think it was us hippies who were seeing that we were out of bounds and needed the structure (as well as father figure in many cases). I suppose it was a combination of the two. We were all at the right(wrong) place a the right (wrong?) time!!

thanks sunesis, very well said

Well said, Lifted. And I will take it a step further. Shame, yes, is a big part of it. But for a little kid - especially a little kid who has been abused and neglected (and preditors are soooo very good at picking out the kids who have been abused and neglected) it is more than just shame. Mixed with that shame - causing that shame to be even greater, is the thrill that someone has finally noticed you exist. So yeah, there is a feeling that what is going on is wrong and that causes shame. There is also a feeling of being happy that someone knows you exist and on some level that happy feeling over something you know is wrong makes the shame oh so very much worse.

I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right. In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.

I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick). Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine. I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...