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I agree. Someone contacted me recently to "have dinner" who is head of a local spin-off. From what I've seen online, they are TWI-lite. NO WAY!!!1 They even meet at the same place we used to have branch meetings. Last thing I want is ACTIVITY.

I was told a number of times that my birth was miraculous. Thanks to The Law of Believing. However, through diligent research, careful, rational thought, quiet observation and a hard look at the facts, I've learned something that I hope is one day backed by peer-reviewed literature: Human Beings are born every f'ing day.

Testimonials: "Their class costs an arm and a leg but it's worth it!" John Jumpup (a 2 time amputee)

Since it's already been brought to your attention, MRAP, I'd like to point out that good manners are rarely a bad thing, especially when goodwill is both free and priceless. If you're just trying to pile on reasons to be disliked so you can turn around later and say "See, they all hated me because I'm a Christian" or "See, they all hated me because of my Christian organization", you will be called on it and caught. I was under the impression that the military encouraged courtesy with women so long as the soldiers are not actively in a combat situation at the time. Perhaps I have been misinformed. If not, then it's not a good reflection on the other military veterans we've had here for you to be the exception. krys had a perfectly legitimate point, and your manners could use some fine-tuning. You may not know your way around here, but mocking people is generally rude wherever you go and that can hardly be considered news nor unique to here. "I forgot his screen-name, and I was too lazy to scroll up the page and look it up, and too impolite to care" is neither an apology nor an admittance of any fault. And yet, she was right to correct you on it. The proper response might have included a "thank you, ma'am" to krys and an apology to Waysider. An IMproper response is to duck responsibility for shortcomings and refuse to offer an apology when an apology is called for. If you want to be treated like a gentleman, I'm sure most of us would be fine with that (there's always an exception.) However, that requires you to act like one so there's a reason to expect a response in kind. Ever consider that it's rude for others to just use acronyms you're unfamiliar with and just expect you to know them or find out what they mean? Ever consider that it's not nice for others to do that to you? Ever consider doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, or at least refrain from doing what you don't want others to do?

can't all you stiffies see it's all post-twi, wierwillite baloney?????......why persist in the insanity of proven dysfunction psychosocially, psychoemotional abuse, (momentus, personal prophecy, etc.), and interpersonal dishonesty????....i just don't get it!.......peace.

Ok, I found out what the deal is about the grandkids. I was pretty sure it wasn't JWS. I wasn't going to wade through a bunch of stuff that I don't have any desire to hear just because someone here decided to be passive-aggressive. And yes, that's exactly what it is. The whole problem with STF is that too much of TWI is at the core. There is a foundational class - not to get anyone saved, but to teach the "logic" behind the beliefs. There's all this talk about using logic and even a whole article (maybe even an area) devoted to logical fallacies, yet they invoke them all the time. Why? because you have to in order to be a bible literalist. JWS apparently can't make the whole thing fit his theology using any of the various versions out there, so he's done a rewrite. I can't decide if it's arrogance or stupidity that drove him to do that. Disagree with them? Well then you are either possessed, or someone has some sort of terrible prophetic words to say about you. Either way it is believed to be truth because they're insiders when it comes to the truth of God's word. I just found out that even their marriage course was something from the makers Momentus. I tried to get them to do something mainstream, but they could just never bring themselves to do it. Am I bitter? Not really. More along the lines of sad. They could have been something special. They all had it in them, but they got in their own way.

somehow I thought they were a church or some kind of public entity. *They* really can't have a personal life, now, can they? and all this nonsense, about how their "operation" of the "gifts of the spirit" can't be "corrupted" as they say with "character faults".. ? to which I would say.. "wanna bet sucker?" like some have said, one can't have your cake and eat it too.. so.. the way I read all of this.. *they* are a public entity, as long as the cash keeps rolling in.. but DARE touch their "private" lives, and lines are drawn.. friggin MORONS. They will never "get it"..

Bet you won't make that mistake again...

Really? TWI came into your life. . . . blessing? I would imagine Jesus expects you to think and consider who you LET into your life. . . . . just a stab in the dark.

Books - stuff that costs money to produce is one thing, but I told them ages ago that charging for stuff that is freely available elsewhere is a good reason to go elsewhere.

And that, my friends, is the entire crux of the problem of "Christian" organizations today.. Businesses.. That's all they are.. If they even hint at needing your money, run away, run away! The baby that cries the loudest get's the milk, but are they really the ones with the need? While real Christians are struggling with financial, marital, family, psychological problems.. Real problems! We instead support these business men. We need to learn to take care of those who have need around us first!!! I doubt you'll find a shortage if you just open your eyes! And if it isn't the Christians around you with need, is those that haven't found Him yet.. When all those avenues are depleted, maybe and that's a very small "maybe", there might be something to help these "business" men with a so called ministry.

I don't want to generate ill feelings. I want to expose things for what they are. The problem is that 99% of the partners and others who financially support these people have NO idea what actually goes on. You fire the guy who started the org and say nothing about it for months? Who does that kind of thing? Usually people who have something to hide.

thanks for bringing this up T-Bone I remember as a boy and teenager and not too long ago watching people get reemed. Why is was ever important that I was there I don't know. I was present for marriages to be ripped apart, hearts torn, and people just being reduced to nothing. These things always came up unexpectedly. But it was all done beause of "The Word" or something. I hadn't realized these events were wrong until recently. Every now and then I remember another incident and think "OMG". I'm thankful now that I recognize that those events were ungodly. What sickens me now though, is that I actually began to enjoy them. There was always a shock value to these events, and they were supposedly done to protect the Household and defeat the Devil. You leave these meetings thinking you've witnessed the adversary taking it in the teeth and God's will done. More yelling and reproof ment more of God's Word done. So I actually learned to enjoy them. (Just like a good teaching was simply based on how loud lcm yelled) My conscience was darkened. Thank God I see that now.

I agree, Bramble. I don't think that's what MacArthur was saying - but I'm not here to explain or defend something he said. I didn't take it that he was putting immorality in the same category as mental illness. My take on it - like I said in my post - is from my Christian perspective. Proverbs 3:7,8 "Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your body, and refreshment to your bones." I take those verses the same way. As a Christian, I believe my overall general health is somewhat linked to my moral health...I certainly don't lump moral depravity and mental illness together - that would absolve the wicked [the morally depraved] of any responsibility!... Thanks for replying, Bramble - it's good to know somebody is reading my long posts!

Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW. It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl." Or what other demented reasoning would you like to use for justifying this incident? "I'm showing you this doggie/women porn video because it may help you in counseling someday." Oh yeah – good point - I forgot about all the thousands of people in the pornography industry I could help if I knew all the sordid details of their typical workday. And I think it would be a great challenge counseling a former porn-star canine. From my Christian perspective, I like some of the points in The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur: Mental health is contingent, if not synonymous with, moral health. The conscience functions more like a skylight, not a light bulb. It lets light into the soul; it does not produce its own light. Its effectiveness is determined by the amount of light we expose to it, and how clean we keep it. Cover it or put it in darkness and it ceases to function. That is why the apostle Paul spoke of the importance of a clear conscience [I Timothy 3:9], and warned against anything that would defile or muddy the conscience [I Corinthians 8:12; Titus 1:15]. He warned of the dangers of a calloused conscience [I Corinthians 8:10], a wounded conscience [I Corinthians 8:12], and a seared conscience [I Timothy 4:2]. Some excerpts on "conscience" from The Tyndale Bible Dictionary by Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort: "Although one's conscience is an inner witness to spiritual and moral truth, it cannot be regarded as the voice of God…No one has such a grasp on moral truth that his or her sinful nature may not overwhelm the conscience and render it unreliable…Both the English word "conscience" and the Greek word translated as "conscience" in the New Testament mean "to be with knowledge." In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God in shame because their consciences passed moral judgment on their disobedience [Genesis 3:8-10]. All human beings normally have the power of moral judgment: "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts" [Proverbs 20:27]. Conscience, then is a gift of God to provide light in matters of good and evil." I went through the Way Corps program during the latter part of my TWI years. Yes, this sedative to the conscience was already coursing through my decision-making process but had not met any real catalyst of opportunity – for my wife and I left TWI during our practicum year – after Geer's power-play Patriarch fiasco. What if we had stayed in? Considering my upbringing – a good Roman Catholic boy that feels guilty about everything – I don't think I would have become a major womanizer, thinking I was god on a stick – but I could have walked right into a temptation to be unfaithful. Maybe one day I'm counseling a woman – she's telling me she wishes her husband would be sweet to her like the way she's seen me at twig with my wife. She says she hasn't been intimate with her husband in years. She says she just needs God's love, a healing touch, to be loved by a spiritual man. She says she needs a hug – just a hug….I can easily see myself – running all these things through my mind of what to do to help – wanting to help – and then the seductive subliminal VPW training would activate – thoughts like: "Anything done out of love is okay. I think I'm spiritual enough I can handle anything – no fear – and I care about this believer enough – to meet her needs – whatever it takes." This is an amazing thing to me. For something that can have such a powerful influence in dealing with memories, how we act at the moment or plan to act in the future – this inner voice can be "silenced" if we ignore it long enough. As I Timothy 4:2 points out – our conscience can become seared – cauterized – rendered insensitive by persisting in evil. This thread has been mostly a self-help therapy for me. As I continue in this Christian life I become more concerned about the moral status of my heart. Dealing with the mental baggage of my TWI years is like trying to re-calibrate my moral guidance system – or maybe installing an anti-virus program in my heart... Why did I start this thread? A few reasons…I don't have some secret sin to confess – but I have such a healthy respect for the devastating power of sin and think I may have dodged a deadly bullet by abandoning TWI's leadership training program. What kind of person would I have become continuing in that frame of mind? Another reason is there are some who have left TWI and maybe still are not aware of the dark side of VPW. Perhaps there are Corps – still in TWI – who have never thought seriously about the subtle influence of leadership modeling such a morally corrupt version of Christianity. Consider I Thessalonians 1: 6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord…" I think people have a natural tendency to imitate others. That's how we learn – until we make something our own. The Old Testament reference to the "heart" included the idea of our conscience. Proverbs 4:23 "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."

Bagpipes, I like your Righteous Anger thread! [Oh and I apologize to everyone – it feels like I'm commandeering my own thread – but everyone's posts have really got my old processor going! – now back to my preemptive rant… no wait …one more Station Identification…] I thought maybe I should post this on your Righteous Anger thread but I already posted something there – alright so I'm not good at staying on task – guess I'll have to pull out my "rambler's license" [got it myself at Bagpipes' Post-thru Service Desk - :) ] – and so throwing fear of derailment out the Windows XP I resume rambling about conscience and righteous anger. One of the threads that has gotten me fired-up angry [and I mean the gosh-awful-I-hope-yah-don't-mind-Lord-if-I-overturn-a-few-tables-in-yah-temple-righteous-angry] is the Foolhardy Behavior thread, especially when dialogue got into the L.E.A.D. program, specifically hitching, and TWI's cavalier attitude [no wait – that's too soft] – flagrant disregard for the safety and security of people – and not just any old group of people – their most dedicated followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've fantasized about time travel – or maybe it's more like a Quantum Leap episode – where I'm actually back in one of my TWI experiences – but I know then what I know now – and also have the nerve to stand up for my convictions – sort of a new and improved me displacing the wimpified spineless dullardesque core of my being…I can just imagine the re-make of the pajama party incident in my first post: We've just finished watching that sick doggie/women porn video, old Pervertwille is now showing that porn pen to the 16 year old girl. Suddenly I jump up while at the same time bellowing out some primordial roar that has amassed such force that I can no longer contain it. Of course all eyes are now upon me – but my eyes are locked in with his – I can hear Maverick's voice in my head "I've got tone, I've got tone!!!!!!!!!!" And then I slowly…deliberately…with all the emotion and drama of a thespian on steroids I say, "It is a disgrace for me to be here today. Why don't you just pack up all your perverted paraphernalia, Spanish Flies, Jedi mind-tricks – along with your lecherous weird-willie, get on your mobile-sacrificial-altar-for-sex-slaves [a.k.a. the Motor Coach] and get the heck out of Rome City." I know that's kind of weird and strange thinking – but I actually do that sometimes – not to re-write any personal history, or re-interpret an experience to absolve myself of shame or guilt – but use it more as a self-corrective tool. My mom used to say "two wrongs don't make a right", [praise to mothers for passing on such great proverbs]. It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass? Anyway – I'm not one to blame something like this on someone else. I turn that righteous anger on myself sometimes – as I realize how I was not vigilant in the care of my soul – and I let a thief inside…That anger hurts – yes a stinging motivation to change – but as you mentioned from that book on your Righteous Anger thread – in that righteous anger I also begin to see things from God's viewpoint – His creation at war with itself….I see it as a part of the healing process of my conscience.

Anyone know Sylvia King from the Glen Allen area. Heard her husband Bob fell asleep a few years ago? Used to fellowship with them in the 80's. They lived in Amirillo Tx for a while.