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Dodge. Distract. Challenge right back. But never admit an error is an error. That is a fundamentally dishonest tactic unworthy of the label "Christian." Wierwille's books are god-breathed, except the ones written by committee, regardless of the fact that he himself took personal responsibility for the final product. We've reached the point, I think, where identifying you as "dishonest to the core" is not "namecalling" but a fair and objective description of your conduct on this board. You'e not an honest debater, and that makes discussion with you a profit to no one.

When I graduated from the corpse (4th), my assignment was VP of the Way of MI and State WOW Coordinator. I had 20 WOW families in 10 different cities, each pair coordinated by Interim 6th corpse. There were only 6 interim corpse college WOWS, who coordinated College WOW wayhomes at MSU, Uof MI, and Ferris State College, and University of Detroit. Of those 20 WOW families, 2 were in Detroit city, and there were 2 families in the Detroit suburbs of Livonia, Warren, Dearborn, and an interim family corpse couple with a group of 3 twigs in the City. I lived just north of the city in Berkeley, MI. I had an interim corpse WOW meeting for all the interim corpse WOWS once a month in my apt in Berkley. They were fabulous, and we all became very close friends. Word got out, and then all the rest of the corpses in the state wanted to come too. So, after a buncha hoohey from Ken Brown, turd corpse LC, it was opened to any corpse who wanted to attend. At the second one of those monthly meetings, we decided we'd do a weekly SNS for the Detroit Area. We started on Anniversary Sunday, 1976, with about 80 people, including all the WOWS & corpse. At the December meeting, we had over 350, and never looked back! When I first got involved with TWIt, in Long Island and Rye, NY in 1970, when we used to pass the horns at fellowships (not called "Twigs yet!), both Steve Heefner (LC) and Steve Perez each used to say before passing the horn, "If you are in serious need of $, take out whatever will help you get through tonight and tomorrow." We had petty cash for ministry expenses, and ALL the ABS was kept in the local branches and areas until all the bills were paid, our meager "salaries" fluctuated with the ABS, which many times meant that our total weekly salary was $10-20. However, whenever there was an emergent need among the fellowships, ABS was used to pay Dr./Hospital bills, buy food or clothing for homeless folks who came to fellowship, pay for refreshments and food at classes and Sunday night meetings every week, etc. Sometimes we even gave people the $45 "donation" so they could take the class and repay when they got back on their feet. Those decisions were made at the Branch and Area levels. At the end of the month, whatever was left over, we sent to the Limb in Rye. Those amounts rose dramatically from month to month, and the same was done by Heefner for the whole Limb every month. How much we sent was determined by how much came in, and since we emptied the bank accounts every month, that was a lot of moolah, and everybody was happy, except dictor. When he saw the amount of $ coming in from just NY, he wanted it all for himself. So, with the help of none other than Christopher Geer, dictor and coward Allen, fired Heefner and the limb staff he brought with him from CA, during the Advanced Class in Rye in March of 1972. Boob and Doody MoneyHands came in with Gary Frederick to take over the limb, close all branch and area bank accounts in the state other than the Limb, and change over to blue forms and the way tree structure. Perez quit, and all the rest of us fulltimers (2 of us, Ed Goebel and myself) quit and got jobs. The Way of Long Island was broken into just the Nassau and Suffolk branches, Brooklyn/Queens became a separate area, and the Bronx branch was run by a guy named Steffen Emerick. I ran the Bklyn/Queens area, and refused to take any salary. I ran it the way I was taught by Heefner and Perez, and it boomed. I NEVER told Moynihan what I was doing. I just gathered the blue forms and cash from the branches and deposited them all directly into the one Limb account. Since the area was booming, I never got any complaints. So, getting back to MI, when we started the weekly Sunday Area meetings, I had all this abundant sharing to send to the limb, checks and cash. I kept a couple of hundred dollars cash in my apt. and used it as the needs arose among the corpse and their WOWS. For example, the interim family corpse couple had 2 young daughters living in the heart of Detroit the summer after the Cobo riots. Well, mommy got pregnant again, which meant they could not re-enter the corpse. So, to help them out, I paid their medical bills from the delivery and their rent for 3 months, from that ABS stash I kept. Sometimes, WOWS couldn't pay their rent or buy decent food, so i'd pay it from my stash. I even paid for a WOW apprentice corpse to have an abortion when her corpse leader got her pregnant, so she could go into the corpse as planned. To me, THIS was the PUREST and most Christ-like use of ABS for ANYTHING!! I still feel that way. Well.....Bo Reahard was the Trunk guy and the Midwest region guy too. So, he came for a visit in March, and I had him teach at the Detroit SNS. When we got back to my apt, he watched me prepare The ABS to send to the limb. I took out my $200 cash, and zipped up the remaining cash, checks, and coins into a bank pouch with the blue form to take to the limb. Bo wanted to know what the cash was for, and I told him. He asked me if Ken Brown knew about this. I said "No, why? I didn't think i needed to tell him." Well he calls Ken Brown and then rips me a new one for "stealing the ABS"! I called his bullshit, bullshit, and he said he was gonna tell dictor when he got back to HQ. I said, "Good! Tell him to call me and tell me I'm stealing his ABS!" Well, I get a phone call 2 days later from dictor himself! He's got Bo in his office "so he can hear this too". Then he says: "Son, you're right and Bo is full-of-shit like you told him! THAT IS the best use of our ABS and you just go right ahead and keep on doing the right thing, OK?? OK BO??". Then, in harmony comes 2 "yessirs"!! LOL! Then he puts Bo on the phone! Bo says, "You were right. I'm sorry for falsely accusing you. When I hang up, I'm calling Ken Brown to tell him the same thing." I said "thanks Bo, I love ya!" Throughout my entire time in TWIt, at every level of the verkackte Way tree I served in, I did exactly the same thing! And NO ONE, not even Coward or Ding Dong ever said another word to me. There are people still living because of that, who would have been dead, maimed, or arrested. I never used any of those monies for any personal needs or purchases for anybody. I distributed to each as there was need. AND, IT WORKED! i watched dictor and da Forehead take baskets and baskets of ABS from various large meetings and stuff it all in brown shopping bags and take it onto the coach never to be seen again. I watched them splurge on themselves and their corpse girls.....gifts, booze, drugs, bribes, and "contributions to their lockboxes"! I confronted da Forehead several times, and accomplished NOTHING. That one time on the phone with dictor and Bo was the ONLY time I ever talked about it with dictor. So, what Skyrider was doing was absolutely "right-on" as far as dictor and Howard were concerned. Even though it could never have been done under da forehead's reign here in the USA, Skyrider being in Canada and having a pair.....did the right thing. If only there were more who had the guts to do the right thing, which, as usual, meant going against HQ and the board of terrorists, perhaps fewer people would have endured life-altering hurts and pains. We'll never know. Thanks for reading!.........peace.

Damn straight, DWBH......................you rock !! THAT is what leadership looks like......and should have been taught and detailed in corps training. LOVE in all of its manifestations helping others.......caring for the weak and vulnerable, ministering to the wounded souls, fighting against those who ravage the flock, leading them to "still waters and green pastures," replenishing their souls with righteous nutrition, etc. etc. In essence, to follow in the steps of Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd. In Canada, from March 1984 - April 1987.........my wife and I embraced our duties of ministering/oversight of the Canadian brethren with every fiber of our beings. We deemed it an honor and privilege of a lifetime to serve them. The only reason that our tenure was 3 years......was because our work visas had expired and the Canadian government officials would not extend them. The country coordinators before us were Americans, Danny and Rhonda Stephenson, [3 years]........and then, we had 3 years. The visa/immigration/custom officers terminated our visa status at the end of March 1987.........and then, Randy and Diane Ginn [Canadian birthright citizen] assumed the duties. Here at GreaseSpot Café.........we document the multi-layered fabric of micro-management, legalism and abuse on countless threads. BUT..........THERE WAS A TIME AND PLACE when those things were not so. Canada, for a number of years, was young, vibrant, sharing, loving........without the tentacles of spiritual overlords and mandates. Each year, we had a "Western Canadian Advance" and "Eastern Canadian Advance" that were like a 3-day family gathering of hugs, fun, laughter, prayer/healing, outdoor games, short vibrant evening teachings, and capped the Saturday night with a two-hour songs/talent/skit night. Nearly everyone got involved......and lots of us stayed up till 2am hanging out together, because we just didn't want to go to bed. Love saturated these wonderful times. We had corps and believers in Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Windsor, London, Toronto, Mississauga, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City and other small hamlets ......most notably around Ontario. During our tenure, the outreach and ABS grew near 300%.........as we stayed valiant for the truth. In confidence, I had many corps and believers tell me that our "Canadian Advances" were far superior to the rock of ages in ohio.

What is also simple is that it is a testable thesis. It actually gives you the methodology to test it. And it fails. Therefore, it is a false thesis. It takes breathtaking dishonesty to say otherwise. Ooh, look!

We can HOPE!

You remind me of the guy who walks up to another guy in a bar, slaps him in the face, and then calls for peace.

I don't know how someone can write such breathtakingly dishonest posts and still consider themselves Christian. Honestly, how do you do it? Is your relationship with Christ so meaningless to you that you fail to say how you assassinate his character by claiming to be his disciple? I'm not even a Christian anymore and I'm embarrassed for him at the notion that someone might mistake you for one of his followers.

In all your huffing and puffing, Mike, you've missed everything that is good about any Bible version. You assume dishonesty, attack and much negativity, when people here point out what you don't understand. Wantonly do not understand.

Is it time for this to go to Soap Opera? That'd give Mike his much needed rest.

Thanks to all for elaborating on the error in PFAL concerning to receive anything from God / having your needs and wants parallel; besides that – there’s another one on that to-receive-anything-from-God-list-of-requirements that I think is similar to it – – to receive anything from God you must know what is available…according to the scriptures God is omnipotent and therefore is not bound by our limitations of knowledge or abilities: Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us… Eph. 3:20 NIV Ya know wierwille’s spiel makes me think of the line in America’s song “Tin Man”…Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man that he didn’t already have… I think a lot of PFAL is just a bunch of hooky-pook rigmarole to put folks under wierwille’s thumb…screw that ! if you’re a Christian declare your allegiance to Jesus Christ, assert your independence from wierwille’s cult and enjoy the freedom and peace our Lord provides…I’m talking to anyone still stuck in wierwille’s doctrine.

Has anyone seen the goalpost? I mean, it was JUST HERE like a second ago!

Well, one thing I noticed - the slot in the picture immediately to Rosie's right hand, that is empty. Of course, that is reserved mentally for BellaDonna, who can't be seen onstage due to her divorce from craig. Also, she can't have too much of a title because of this. But make no mistake, she is there. Those 3 to her left are what I term "expendibles". Even after 20 years. Look at rico and other vp's track records back to harve. The Way's facebook group is increasing and people are joining. The whitewash tactic works. They have a new vanilla class. They have their history hidden. They have their postions secured. There are only a few small pockets where people tell the truth. Like here.

Hardship and Burdens............were heaped upon corps grads and advanced class followers with each passing year. The fact that there is a 21-page (and counting) discussion on "the secret messaging of wierwille's writings" is sleight-of-hand and moot............in my opinion. The Scriptures give us explicit examples and warn us to beware of this type of deception and seduction. Words and fair speeches without confirming results are little more than intellectually theorizing intent. OMG.......wierwille could NOT do what he claimed. Not one time did I ever see him operate "the big SIX manifestations." I have posted of an incident in the BRC where he adamantly proclaimed an 8th corps guy was possessed with devil spirits.......YET, wierwille did nothing but yell, fume and stomp out. Pppfffftttt. THE REASON CORPS STARTED EXITING...............more rapidly by 1980-->.........was hardships and burdens. The burden to attend corps week and roa each year was unsustainable. Anyone with a modicum of empathy for these increasing burdens could SEE THIS. When I was in Canada as the country coordinator.......I had many of these conversations with way corps in Vancouver, B.C. and Calgary, Alberta. It was a HUGE deal to take 3-weeks off EACH YEAR for corps wk/roa. As more corps married........more pregnancies, more babies. Reality was at the front door. Corps grads needed a career path that would strengthen and sustain their families. The burdens to keep apace with the cult-mandates was escalating. Maybe, that is why I highlight the Luke 4:18 reference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't care how many times someone tries to explain to me "the secret writings of wierwille"............the man was a narcissist, a drunkard, a predator and a bully. He fits every description of a "senses man" drunk on power. I loathe everything about him.......his deception, his cloak of authority, his plagiarism, his sexual predation over corps women I knew and his unrepentant wantonness. To the very end............Wierwille's Wantonness .

THIS statement reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of the process of communication. For you to acknowledge failing to communicate (i.e. "... you merely don't understand"), and blame it on ANYONE other than yourself, is reprehensible. You are not a worthy opponent in this debate. And that's a fair inference based directly on your own words.

No, you won't. Not only is your admission (that you have failed to communicate anything here) significant, but it also strongly suggests you knowingly troll here.

Two major claims have been brought forth on this thread. 1.) PFAL is God Breathed. 2.) Wierwille, himself, declared it to be God Breathed. Neither claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction.

Wierwille took responsibility for what was written under his name. You are dishonestly absolving him of that responsibility in an effort to dishonestly dodge, distract, challenge right back but never admit an error is an error. That is lying. You are not engaging in an honest dialogue. I am not assuming dishonesty. I am observing, noting and documenting dishonesty.

Wierwille took personal responsibility for everything in books that had his name as the author. To act as though errors in those books get a mulligan because they were collaborative efforts is fundamentally dishonest and at odds with Wierwille's own written testimony about the content of those books. They are his words. They are not "proofreaders oversights. They are actual errors. Your dishonesty would be shameful coming from a thinking person.

The theory as a whole can not be tested. Therefore, one must test the individual components. This is something we have done, many times over, on several of the individual points. Those points have been proved to be invalid. Therefore, I must conclude that the thesis, as a whole, has been disproved.

In my opinion, here's the basic problem with the whole idea that PFAL is God Breathed: It relies entirely on circular reasoning. By that, I mean the premise is based on self verification. Person 1.) "PFAL is God Breathed." Person 2.) "How do we know?" Person 1.) "It says so right in the PFAL text." Person 2.) "How do we know this claim in the PFAL text is accurate?" Person 1.) "Because the PFAL text is God Breathed." It's like the TV commercial that was popular a while back. Person 1.) "You can't lie on the internet." Person 2.)" How do you know?" Person 1.) "I heard it on the internet." There would need to be outside evidence to give any sort of credence to the premise. It's just that simple.

Excellent suggestion Twinky!

That's bull$hit, Mike. You don't even come close to proving ANYthing, not even two tiny items. Everyone else: if you let Mike have the last word, he might then stop.

Way, good post! Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar.

Mike, feel free to post, but I think it's what you post, that irritates me. It seems to me, that you keeping posting the same old garbage, in different ways. When others point this out, you get upset, and try to defend your views. Mike, any farmer will tell you, S&it, is still S&it, no matter what you put it on.

Chock, how sad! But, the GSC can only do so much; if people want to believe TWI's Bull Shucks, that is their right. But in my heart, I know the GSC, is a font of knowledge for former TWI people, and I am grateful that I found it.

No.

FTFY (Fixed That For You)

Even if we allow you the see saw example, they are NEVER parallel. They are either coincidental or intersecting. edit: This is grade school level math here. I thought the guy had a doctorate.

Wanna know another Ohio-ism? Alcoholism.

Proofreaders' oversights and printers' errors? That's NONSENSE. Those were Wierwille's words. He didn't misspell "Turkey" "F-r-a-n-c-e." He wrote something that was actually in error. The dishonesty of your answer is fruit. Tells me all I need to know about the tree.

The Council of Nicea is where the church decided once and for all that Jesus is God and of one substance with the Father, begotten not made, not a creation but the Creator. It was indeed an event of epic proportions. And it is an actual error to say Nicea was in modern day France. Good catch. I missed it. [I can't verify because my copies of these books have been transformed by the renewing of their pulp into Bounty towels.

Yes, Chockfull......The Way of Canada was/is registered as a non-profit entity under Canadian governance. All monies (donations/gifts/tithes) stayed in Canada and were documented and all expenses coded under strict restraints in formal ledger and end-of-year accounting. Then, The Way of Canada submitted these records to a yearly audit by a reputable accounting firm. As I remember, the fee of $5,000 for annual audit was deemed a prudent investment to keep The Way of Canada in good standing with governing officials. In retelling this experience and situation in Canada, I am reminded of the "giving and receiving" that I experienced during those three years in Canada. Quite honestly, it seemed like we used way magazines, teaching tapes and yearly themes from twi as a guideline rather than dogma. From Moncton, New Brunswick to Vancouver, British Columbia........there were pockets of believers who didn't care a whit about what was happening at twi's headquarters. The language barriers, the subcultures and demographics of Toronto and Montreal, most notably....... added a vast array of challenges and "liberties," for sure. As you stated above, the Board of Dummies were heavy-handed in exploiting the people........and therefore, limb/region guys didn't have the opportunity that I had. Perhaps, if I'd "run it up the flagpole" all the way to Howard Allen, who oversaw I.O. ..........he might have shot it down. But.......I didn't ask him. I believed that I was walking with God.......and allocating the $4,000 for dental work to a corps grad in need was what I did. Again......I was trying to walk in his steps [Luke 4:18].

I meant all too familiar in the negative sense: The game playing. The refusal to give straight answers The promises The statement: The only way to know if its true is to do it

Certainly. When people ask you simple questions that require simple answers, answer them in an appropriate fashion.

It's not as tangled as you claim. "Soup is soup, apple butter is apple butter" and deception is deception.

One corps grad in Vancouver, British Columbia was struggling with financial burdens and trying to keep pace with attending yearly corps week/roa. She had this amazing, genuine heart to serve others.......giving thanks to her lord and savior, Jesus Christ......to be there for others. So, when it came to my attention that she needed $4,000 for dental work........I addressed this matter at our next executive meeting. [Yes, in Canada......we had a three-member executive board to discuss business and financial decisions. Each year, The Way of Canada paid an audit firm to do a thorough, in-depth yearly audit of our books. Thus, we were tasked with submitting official *meeting minutes* from our executive board to the audit firm.] Without hesitation, we authorized this $4,000 payment/gift to enable this wonderful corps grad to get the best dental care available. And, if she needed more......that was absolutely available. And, it brought great joy to our hearts to see her beautiful smile once again. June Marie Casey...........one of the finest disciples of Christ I ever knew. .............Sadly, she died in a car accident about 17 years later or so [2003 or 2004].

So many failures by veepee............. Zero Corps program........[check] Instilled "Lock-Box" teaching as a Principled Pillar.........[check] Built on a Foundation of Unaccountability to Anyone.........[check] Tried to Update Teaching/Filming of foundational class at PFAL '77........[check] No Accreditation at The Way College of Emporia...........[check] Lauding Camp Gunnison as Premier Vacation Spot and Restaurant for Way Believers...........[check] Sent out corps letters as stop-gap of hemorrhaging corps grads.............[check] The Sno-Way.......an all-terrain vehicle attempt-built by Grumelot and another Family Corps guy......[check] Putting Mantle on Martindale as 2nd prez...............hahahahahahaha.............[check] Word in Culture........Fine Arts House, "Cultural Center," High Country Caravan, etc........splat....[check] The Victors Quartet..................nothing like killing off youthful zeal..........LOL.......[check] Athlete of the Spirit terminology......---> AOS Production.........oops......[check] Corps Exploitation and Labor at corps wk/roa.........not sustainable........[check] Pharisaic Example of "Desiring to be Seen & Served".................[check] NO demonstrating God's Power to the people.......NONE............[check] Flaunting Smoking/Drinking at late night corps mtgs..............[check] Used Motor Coach for Sexual Predation..............[check] Wrecked Twig-Hopper in Ontario and silenced all to secrecy.......[check] Lies and Cover-up of Cause of Death.....CANCER...........[check] Mystique of "man of god"...........like dust in the wind........[check]

THIS WAS WIERWILLE'S ALL NINE ALL THE TIME...... Wierwille was a narcissist....... Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions Needing continual admiration from others Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people Intensely envious of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them Pompous and arrogant demeanor