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  1. King Solomon apparently disagreed with your (il)logic. What do you do with Proverbs 11:14? "Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety." ESV And what about Proverbs 16:18? "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." NIV Mike, I think the scriptures are calling BULL$hit on you. VeePee was as arrogant as they come and clearly, he eschewed wise counsel when he needed it most.
    2 points
  2. Call me old fashion but I tend to think in courts of law, in business, in science, in history - the prevailing authority are the facts. As far as determining who are genuine spiritual leaders – and me being just your typical, dull, 5-senses oriented schlub, I guess I’d have to find out a few things. Like ask what religion do these supposed spiritual or religious leaders represent? Then review the basic tenets and sacred documents of that religion. Next look into the personal and professional life of that leader – the body of their work and the example they have set – looking to see if they have done the due diligence to actually achieve the status of being a genuine spiritual leader… …not like I have a whole lot of free time and would do that before the next ecclesiastic conference when clerics might get together to negotiate an official stance on whatever…I guess it has to do with the fact that I’ve been fooled before by one certain unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator and hypocrite…just sayin’.
    2 points
  3. When you're young........four years is an eternity. Four years of high school, four years in college, or four years in the military........and you are a different person at the end of that juncture. You enter as a neophyte and graduate with knowledge, potential, confidence, support systems and growing skill sets. And, for those who have strong supportive parents, relatives and siblings.......the family unit generally provides an increasing supply of support and networking to help you navigate this journey of life and fulfillment. Roads of success stretch out before you. If you're young, displaced and/or broke..........six months is an eternity. The reasons for "displaced youth" are vast.........broken homes, abusive fathers, alcohol, sex, drugs, identity, trauma, conflicts, etc. And then, cult leaders are conspiring to target your vulnerability. They build their followings, and livelihoods, on the backs of "good-hearted" followers......preaching and exhorting them to faithfully witness daily to bring others into the fold. You "earn your stripes" by witnessing and shall be rewarded in eternity for it, they preach. The cult leaders, the big-wigs, are above the fray of door-to-door witnessing and have far more important things to attend to......but demand that witnessing is one of the highest forms of obedience. So, cult zealots take to the streets, to college campuses, the local bookstores and nearby parks.......scanning the landscape for isolated individuals. The cult offered a pseudo-family......to those who gave servitude. Every cult and splinter group knows the art of deception. ~~~~~~~~~ A quick review of wierwille and twi sheds light: Wierwille pastored in Paine, OH and Van Wert, OH.......and was contentious against church board Like a caged animal, wierwille was constantly pressing "the edges of his confinement" to find a way out He labeled it "spiritually searching"........others might label it "narcissistic" In 1953, he stole BG Leonard's foundational class and taught it as his own In December 1957, he breaks from church to a class-based ministry Teaching 10-12 classes per year (1958-1966).......most went back to their churches In 1967, wierwille films pfal......and then needed "instructors" to oversee film classes It is apparent that wierwille struggled immensely for ten years to get this work jump-started. All those years of traveling and teaching live classes yielded miniscule results.......and they struggled to pay the bills. Even though wierwille was adept in homiletics, there were few from those nearby towns who desired to venture over to hear wierwille's teachings. Of course, his reputation as a rabble-rousing youngster and womanizer was rumored far and wide which didn't help matters when he moved his operation from Van Wert back to the family farm. The filmed class extended the reach of twi........and, when a few guitar players and firebrands took the stage, twi never was the same. Several times, when I was around Dorothy Owens or escorting her......she talked about how the hippies and younger generation revolutionized twi's thinking and standards in the late '60s. Barefoot and out of control, they started coming to the summer camps. Hell.....they didn't even know proper etiquette or protocol. So, Dorothy, being the retired school teacher and all, was assigned to teach classes on dining room etiquette, proper utensils, dress and protocol. Looking back.......I firmly believe that it was *the youth culture* in twi, and surrounding its events, that was so enticing. In utopian bliss, this cult-ure was to refrain from all negatives......everything was "great." How are you today? "As He is".......or....."In the heavenlies" was the reply. Smiles, and hugs and greeted with kisses.......what's not to like? Not a care in the world (God's got it covered.) A world without responsibility. Rock of Ages camping......where you stayed up half the night talking with others from distant lands. The youth factor begot MORE youth. Girls and guys everywhere......on an eternal "spring break." Who needs Ft. Lauderdale when you've got the rock of ages? It's not necessarily the beach that's the destination.......it's the people and the drunken fun. Sure, the Bible and all was deeply important........but the passions and likeminded youth culture were mesmerizing. Around 1974, wierwille's arrogance could not contain itself as the corps program was growing in leaps and bounds. Visions of grandeur were dancing in his head and he was going to show church elders from New Knoxville to Van Wert, he was exhibiting the great power of God. His narcissism had bloomed. We thought we were free. We thought we were serving the Lord.........until the scales fell from our eyes. In twi, four years of in-residence training was an eternity.......of indoctrination.
    1 point
  4. 1 point
  5. 49, thanks for the link. I think Macroni, holds the patent for the radio. But, I could be wrong. Does anyone know who really invented the radio?
    1 point
  6. First, I believe there has been a revision and Telsa is presently credited with having invented radio. Second, for the sake of argument, did either inventor give permission to the people who made money off of radio to use it? You see, back when VCRs first came out there were two formats: Beta and VHS. Sony, the inventor, said they were going to keep Beta for themselves and charge companies wanting to make Beta tapes a fee. They, however, gave the VHS patent, the poorer quality signal, to whoever wanted it. Naturally, where there's money to be made, people invest. That's why there are billions of VHS tapes floating around, but very few Beta tapes. Also, someone posted an experience where he wanted to use some things lying around, but the Corps leader said it was wrong. "Taking without asking is stealing," the leader said. Now, this was the early Corps, so where did the corps leader get that standard? From Saint Vic, himself? If that was a corps standard, and Saint Vic was the top corps leader, why didn't he obey that standard in relation to his plagerism?
    1 point
  7. Marconi is often cited as the inventor of radio. Many who did invent the radio did not receive the credit he did. on topic
    1 point
  8. 49, WOW! Great post! I knew a few leaders, who were jerks. I think some of them, were on power trips. I stayed as far away from them, as possible.
    1 point
  9. DWBH, I understand that you and Mike "were there." But, quite frankly, I think Mike "plays fast, and loose" with the truth. Whereas, you tell it, the way it really was. When you post, you know what you are talking about; you don't post a lot of Donkey Dung. Both you and Mike, "were there," but Mike posts as though life in TWI, was nothing but peace, and love. I think much of what he says is Dung. Shalom.
    1 point
  10. Maybe a bit off topic, but I have something to say: There's been talk here about how to define just who "your spiritual leaders" are. I have a story which might shed some light on this: First, let us keep in mind Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and IS a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." From the above, we understand it's entirely possible to actually perceive what's going on in people's hearts and minds by understanding appropriate related scriptures. And that's still true --- even when they themselves may not be fully aware of it! This is a very important part of discerning spiritual situations. I once had a Twig Coordinator (name withheld) who wasn't very nice to me personally. It seems he never had much good to say of me --- if anything at all! But still, I put up with his often rudeness the best I could. While it's true I did much to help in the fellowship and conducted myself well, I never heard even one word of thanks, or "good job" from him. However, he was very quick to point out each and every fault he could find on me (like a fly on .... ). And many times it wasn't even justified, meaning that he was accusing me falsely! [This is one of the so-called 7 deadly sins from Prov 6:19 (#7) "and he that soweth discord among brethren.". It also relates with the 8th commandment --- from Ex 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."] Anyway, one time I was reading in Galatians and something stuck out to me. I've bolded the part which struck a chord in my heart: Rom 13:1-3 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and THOU SHALT HAVE praise of the same:" According to this, true spiritual leaders are defined by God himself --- and NOT because someone has a corpse ring on his finger and sanction by some earthly ministry to be my leader! This is done in heaven --- and is in accordance with what the Word declares. (Remember Heb 4:12?) Simply because this guy didn't give me praise when it was warranted, it was revealed to my heart that he was NOT REALLY MY LEADER at all; for if he truly was, he would have conducted himself accordingly. So one day (when I had enough of his BS) I confronted him about denying me those "words of praise" when they were due. And he laughed at me. So I took him to the section in Romans 13 and showed it to him. And I told him that I no longer considered him my spiritual leader because of it. And he laughed me to scorn! And from then on, I made it a point "not to obey him in all things". Instead of putting up with his nonsense during fellowship, I constantly confronted him (in front of everyone) when he would accuse me falsely. In a short time, he became very frustrated! In fact, he got so upset that he actually left the area. (He even divorced his wife, quit the ministry all together --- and moved back to Louisiana where he was brought up!) And thus: The truth I had boldly declared became true upon earth, even as in heaven --- that he was no longer my leader, or for that matter, anyone's leader! (Actually, he never was anyway --- get it?) There are many similar parameters like this within the Word --- which truly define life's situations. And the more of them we notice, the wiser we shall be in evaluating the proper associations we should make among people --- and choices which will enhance our lives for the better.
    1 point
  11. Terrific posts Skyrider and T-bone! Thank you both for such self-reflective insight into the myriad, varied, yet quite profound, psycho-emotional factors which caused so many of the idealistic youth of the 60s to be prime “cult bait”. I was among them as were you, and all of those who spent any amount of time getting gobbled up by all the various “spiritual growth” programs offered by the cult. The doctrine they manufactured was certainly “self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing”, especially adept at manufacturing “spiritual needs” which only their manufactured doctrine could meet. Then, add in the guilt motivation of “Gawd has no hands but our hands blah blah blah yada yada yada in the name of Jesus Christ amen, with a little “what has this ministry cost YOU? How much have YOU given to God? Christ was willing to die! Are YOU??”, and, of course, a lot of fear of “not measuring up” to whatever shifting “spiritual priorities” were manufactured to maintain the ever-changing standards of “the prorgram(ming)”, moving the goal posts of that “spiritual maturity” which gawd required of his “douloi”, further and further away, requiring more and more $$ and “training” for never-ending programs living only on a “needs basis”. Not a cult, eh?? LOL! The “Art” of sociopathic, malignant, narcissistic behavior disorders ALWAYS includes “charming” and “engagingly manipulative” personality traits in those so afflicted. Such behavior is not only diagnostic, but also predictive of future pathological behavior as the patient progressively decompensates while the disease progresses, and goes untreated. This hindsight is 20/20 though. It is the result of my post-cult Nursing education and 25 years of practice. Remember the old adage, “ if only I knew now what I knew then, I woulda, shoulda, coulda.....”? I have learned through life experience that such thinking is self-defeating. It deals with “what IF” instead of “what IS”. That sabotages any productive self-reflection while rationalizing continued behavioral inaction as a “frustrating waste of time”. That inaction and rationalization freezes your identity at whatever stage you are willing to accept in order to relieve the frustration. Usually, that locks folks into the identity formation stage of human development. Normally, that stage occurs during the ages of 21-32. How old were YOU at the height of your TWIt involvement? In the Corpse? Way Home? WOW VET?Bet it was somewhere between age 18-32, unless you had a kid or 2. There are as many psychoemotional factors contributing to our being “cult bait” as there are individuals who unwittingly became cultists. IMO, posts such as Skyrider and T-bone have posted here, are the greatest weapons we here at the GSC have in our arsenal of FACTS and eyewitness accounts from honest, altruistic, and concerned ex-wayfers, of the other side of the TWIt stohree. TWIt and it’s offshoots hate this site because it exposes the purulent underbellies of each and all of their cults. The Truth only hurts those who stand against it! Selah...........peace.
    1 point
  12. Skyrider, you’ve got that right ! Dads are a big deal in a child’s development…I think of my relationship with my Dad before TWI…my Dad was a medic in WWII and received 2 Purple Hearts…he suffered from PTSD ever since and I believe that contributed in part to the dysfunctionality in our family…He was not abusive, not an alcoholic, never fooled around on Mom, always provided for us, took us on vacations, taught me how to use tools, and turned me on to sci-fi movies after which we would philosophize about stuff. But Dad was always somewhat distant emotionally, often had nightmares – I could hear him down the hall from my bedroom – Mom would explain later “about the war”…which brings up other times when he would be watching a war movie on TV and Mom would get on him about “watching that stuff when you know it gives you nightmares”. But as I grew older and became influenced by the counterculture of the 60s – the emotional distance between Dad and me increased. I hope all this isn’t too far off topic – but I believe all that was part of what set me up to be attracted to wierwille and his cult; this was my vulnerability…I am very ashamed to confess this – but there were a few times when I remember wishing he could have been my father. I was taken by his charisma and warmth and how he seemed to really connect with people…ugh - gag ! now it just makes me wanna barf - that I would trade my wonderful, loyal, hardworking and loving Dad for some lying, thieving weasel. Well, I think I became a truly repentant prodigal son after dumping that fvcking fake “father-in-the-word” wierwille when I left TWI and for my “penance” worked on reconnecting with my Dad until he passed away – and you can tell Sister Dolorosa that has been one of the most enjoyable acts of repentance in the history of New York Catholic Boys. …again – hope the details of vulnerability relates to your thread.
    1 point
  13. Yeah..........it is nauseatingly gut wrenching to look back at that cult exploitation with eyes wide open. Thankfully, I didn't stay in that cult for 40 years, or more............like many in that R&R group. Then, there are those like that new poster who stated that he was in twi for 14 years and a Geer group for 18 years!! These splinter groups take a slice of cultism, home-brew it........and just as manipulative. Dealing with tree suckers.......... "Sometimes a tree starts looking more like a shrub, with a bushy clump of young stems sprouting from the base or from a spot on the trunk. Those stems are called suckers, because they zap water and nutrients from the main tree. As suckers are unhealthy for trees and they are unsightly, it’s important to know how to eliminate them and when possible, how to prevent them in the first place." Same with way tree suckers........ Eliminate them........from your life Prevent them in the first place.....do not attend How many more "tree suckers" are going to sprout up from the R&R group? Five? Seven? Ten? It is ALL so sickening........ my wife is in contact with a corps grad who left twi some 20 years ago and she still gravitates to a splinter twig that meets twice a month. There are corps grads out there who STILL cleave to pseudo-pfal jargon and "teach twig" like it was 1974. Ugh.
    1 point
  14. Short answer to Rocky's original question in my opinion is NO. Toxic manipulation called love bombing is not good ... understatement of the universe.
    1 point
  15. Struggled with whom? It was his friggin' ministry, for crying out loud. I think YOU left out some important information. In your world (with allegedly "genuine spiritual leaders"), how does one determine "what's right with God," other than simply declining to question or challenge VeePee? How do you measure the standard? The way most of us saw it play out is that a malignant narcissist with a gift for conning young people demanded loyalty and if someone didn't like it, then to hell with them. IOW, people didn't stay in Wierwille's notion of the household of God based on anything other than that they bought into a confidence game and continued along because they found a place to belong.
    1 point
  16. 49, great video! Thanks for posting it!
    1 point
  17. Not exactly on topic, but it relates: While reading the posts here, I couldn't help thinking of an old friend named Molly Petch. (It was about '75 or so, when some of the believers were still "getting high".) She got lots of people to come to twig merely by asking them: "Hey --- wanna get high?" And even the twig leader didn't seem to mind that, supposing "the ends might justify the means": For who knows? --- Maybe they'll take THE CLASS! (LOL) I do remember a particular incident though: She came with a couple of "hippies". When we were all seated (and ready to begin the fellowship) one of them pulled out a bag of pot and a pipe, etc. TOO FUNNY! (They left pretty quick when they found out Molly was only alluding to "getting high on the Word".)
    1 point
  18. Nothing to say here, except: Such a shameful act to steal one's work and put your own name on it! Actually, I wanted you all to ENJOY something appropriate: (It's only about 3 minutes --- AND WELL WORTH IT!)
    1 point
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