Leaderboard

Well said Twinky ! How grating it would be to dwell on their hypocrisy of balling people out whilst doing the dishonourable deeds themselves. Even in our little country, it's putrid double standards pervaded what started out as a warm, cozy fellowship of people that genuinely cared about each other. Talk about sowing the seeds of deception, these guys were sowing their seed like rampant animal herd leaders. This is why R&R will fail, some of the perpetrators running it still without repentance, nay, from what I have heard, excusing what they have done.

I cannot begin to tell you how horrifying it was, to learn about the sexual misdeeds at HQ and top leadership. All the years since they'd M&A'd me, all the mental anguish they'd caused me, and I'd been so sure they were right, whiter than white, simply wouldn't stand for adultery, child molestation and other shenanigans. There were a lot of allegations about the time I found out, about the RC church and its abuse of children. Smugly, I thought, "TWI would never behave like that!" No. They didn't. They behaved worse. I suppose there remains within me a residual anger at TWI and its LYING, FRAUD, MANIPULATION, ABUSE, that I could poke into life, but I prefer to use that residual anger to understand and help others who have been abused by those they trusted.

There was an episode of "Gilligan's Island" where the Professor did "word association" with Thurston Howell III. At every word, the first thing that came to Thurston's mind was "money." "Hot." "Money." "Cold." "Money." (Until he finally gave a different answer...) "Child." "Tax deduction." lcm had this fixation that became an obsession with homosexuality. Eventually he started seeing it everywhere. So, "What was the original sin?" "Homosexuality/" "What is the worst sin?" "Homosexuality." "Why did we have problems with this program that's tanking?" "Homosexuality." "How can we make twi better?" "Remove homosexuality." "What's twi's biggest problem right now?" "Homosexuality." "What's the capital of Paraguay?" "Homosexuality." "Who was the 16th US President?" "Homosexuality." "What do you see when you look at art?" "Homosexuality." I don't think it was a matter of plagiarism, as much as it was playing a piano that only had one key.

Hi WordWolf! There are no “VPW’s steps to trace! It was Peter Bernegger and John Crouch who first introduced Ernest Martin and his astronomical calculations and research into the timing of the birth of Christ. Peter Bernegger was admitted into the 8th corpse along with two other men who later became his unfortunate compatriots in TWIt’s first PUBLIC execution, excommunication, and mark and avoid procedures which were faithfully and more forcefully applied as the years rolled on, and taken to their ultimate, perverted, vengeful conclusion under the reign of their second King, the proud and ridiculous King Okie Da Forehead until he became too psychotic and insane to even keep around as some worthless old drooling emeritus wannabe. LOL! Peter already had a degree and maybe even a Masters in Astronomy, and it was he who introduced Ernest Martin to TWIt. He went on to get a PhD and is a professor at a university some where. I have never spoken to Bernegger or Fanning since those meetings were cancelled. I have been in touch with Marty, Dave W. (now sadly deceased and very missed by many) and John Crouch during the years past-TWIt. Anyway.....the other two guys were John Fanning (some self-trained Greek and research expert with a background (and now PhD) in Psychology or Psychiatry), and Marty McCrae, who at that time had all ready attained a Masters in Middle Eastern Languages, particularly Aramaic and Syriac and Hebrew. He eventually went on to receive his PhD also, and teaches at McGill University in Canada IIRC. These three men were uniquely “assigned” to a spayshull project in their very first weeks at Emporia by dictor himself. They were given the “opportunity and privilege” of doing research on the dating of the birth of Christ and to submit it to Cummins and the Research Dept. as an “underlying” text for dic’s new book “he was working”, JCOPS. I was contacted along with Schoenheit, David Wilensky, and John Crouch as we each had specific “knowledge and abilities” in areas necessary to the work in progress. Schoenheit and myself on Old T. History, and symbolism/foreshadowing of Christ in the construction and services of The Tabernacle, The Feasts, the Hebrew Liturgical Calendar and the Lunar Calendar dating, and The Temple and Priesthood. David Wilensky was a math and science genius who eventually wound up working for the DOD as a “scientific analyst” on highly classified government intelligence gathering via satellite and U-2 aerial photo and other data for the NSA, CIA, and FBI. John Crouch had an advanced degree in Meterology, and eventually, as a member of the Research Dept., was one of the prime movers behind the writing and publication of JCOPS when it finally came out. I was at Emporia teaching on The Tabernacle when the public execution went down. I had twice had a meeting with Fanning, Bernegger, McCrae, Wilensky and Crouch (all first year in-Rez 8th corpse) cancelled by LCM who was also at Empiria during that time. No reasons were given. Then, without notice, my evening class on The Tabernacle was superseded by an all corpse meeting phone hook-up for all the “campuses” with dictor and LCM that night instead. THAT was the night of the public execution of Bernegger, Fanning and McRae....the three amigos of seed boyz. LOL. As I said, I was at Emporia for this kangaroo court, and watched in utter disbelief at what was going on! I was friendly with both Crouch and Wilensky prior to their entrance into the corpse. So, I met briefly and secretly with each of them wondering how we didn’t get the axe with them. We agreed we were fortunate for some reason and that’s the last time we ever spoke of it together. Dictor NEVER read ANY of Ernest Martin’s work! He was too dumb, just like his C- performance at Lakeland Mission House College years before. As usual he had to have Walter do everything on it and always had Cummins, Schoenheit, and Crouch to translate and explain anything dic said he wanted to know “more about”. He never even read the final manuscript, and the only thing in the entire book he wrote was the dedication at the beginning. That’s it!! THAT’S also why there won’t be any “VPW’s steps” to trace anywhere on this book. There weren’t any!! LOL! Thanks for reading.

I was there. Most of you here - have only secondhand knowledge. Sky and OldSkool probably have first hand knowledge from Corps hookups. I had to listen to LCM's rants, live and in all spittle: front row seat, in fact. He spent months of Corps Nights ranting on about homos, 2 or 3 hour rants using foul language and foul descriptions of the alleged perverted activities these men did. Slandering people (men) who might or might not have been "guilty" of anything; these people just vanished from HQ and of course nobody had the opportunity to talk to them (one, I know, certainly had no such inclinations [blushes]). "Sniffing them out." "Spiritual suspicion." The first couple of rant-sessions, I thought, "There's obviously a problem here." But as the weeks turned into months, I wondered at his obsession with this. ("Methinks he doth protest too much."). There got to be some overspill into Sunday Night Service tapes. I wondered if he himself had a problem with homosexuality - whether he was a closet homosexual. I wondered at his sanity - but then, I was a newbie in-rez Corpswoman, and he was the spiritual leader; he knew better. In all of his rants, though, it was only males he ranted about - never about women with women. I find that interesting, sort of, now, knowing what I do. He was having it away with whatever women (other men's wives, single women, any women) for shorter or longer periods. I personally have talked with one woman who was his "squeeze" for a while; she told me in detail the sad tale of the decline of her marriage. And of LCM's role in that breakdown, his insidious comments about her cuckold husband. His wife was having it away with another woman, RFR, who herself "had him by the b---s," though only figuratively. (Perhaps this is where the serpent/lesbian idea crept in? It was a jibe against RFR.) But I only recall him ranting about females almost in passing. His obsession was men-with-men.

Nice list. I suspect that both "sides" are making a fundamental mistake. Stipulating to that list, it appears that there's a number of verses saying "conditional", and a number of verses saying "unconditional." This points towards one of 2 conclusions: A) the Bible is contradictory in major ways and thus is unreliable for doctrine like this B) the verses saying "conditional" are addressing one thing consistently, and the verses saying "unconditional" are addressing something else consistently. That's my thinking, you're welcome to draw your own conclusions. Then again, we're still beginning this discussion, so who knows where we will end up before it's over?

Also to help full disclosure here, I do not believe in dispensationalist theology of any kind nor OSAS(once saved always saved). I believe the scriptures are clear from beginning to end, Genesis to Revelations and they speak of the same thing from start to finish regarding God's saving grace, and mercy. I believe God's plan has never changed from the moment this created world began, and that plan was His kingdom, whereby being saved from the ever dying world has always been by means of and through the works of our Lord. I'll attach a document I've used at times when discussing this topic (OSAS). It is from a non-biased point of view, IMHO. As it has 2 columns. One side lists verses concerning OSAS (Permanence) and the other listing verses concerning Conditional. It only lists verses from the Epistles on the Conditional side, so as to not bring up the inevitable hidden man in the corner(Dispensationalists). And that's all it is.. Just verses. Pro/Against. I've found it helpful at times.. And while not exhaustive, it's the primary ones usually discussed. Once_Saved_Always_Saved.pdf

A sub-topic in the linked wikipedia page on Socrates references the Socratic method. Perhaps his most important contribution to Western thought is his dialectic method of inquiry, known as the Socratic method or method of "elenchus", which he largely applied to the examination of key moral concepts such as the Good and Justice. It was first described by Plato in the Socratic Dialogues. To solve a problem, it would be broken down into a series of questions, the answers to which gradually distill the answer a person would seek. The development and practice of this method is one of Socrates's most enduring contributions, and is a key factor in earning his mantle as the father of political philosophy, ethics or moral philosophy, and as a figurehead of all the central themes in Western philosophy. The Socratic method has often been considered as a defining element of American legal education. French philosopher Pierre Hadot suggests that the dialogues are a type of spiritual exercise. Hadot writes that "in Plato's view, every dialectical exercise, precisely because it is an exercise of pure thought, subject to the demands of the Logos, turns the soul away from the sensible world, and allows it to convert itself towards the Good."

Geez i had no idea that STFI was still paying Dan's salary even after he told them God gave him revelation overnight to go start his own group based on his position of continue in faith, which is opposed to what STFI teaches. So glad i never gave a penny to them and refused recruitment by Dan when he came to visit me after i left TWI. I have never regretted not getting involved with them.

I actually met Craig once, at a word in business special in Dallas, TX. He's really tall! I guess his body needs to be that big to house all that ego.

Just making the statement (that I highlighted in bold) does not constitute even an acknowledgment that you understand my point. OTOH, I have asked you pertinent questions and posed hypothetical situations that directly go to the heart of your point. As I said in the STFI forum, that while you are not allegedly "100% convinced" on Dan's claims, you have ONLY commented in such a way that you are, in fact, 100% convinced. If you were not, you would at least be open to discussion on the issues I presented to you. I said more in the other forum. I'm not interested in a pi$$ing contest over convoluted meanings of scripture verses listed in whatever order and comparing the meanings of Greek or Hebrew words. I have presented feedback based on real life experiences that demonstrate the sociological and "organized religion" ramifications of the claims at issue. Take them or leave them. I have no need to have the last word on the subject.

I am not a dispensationalist. With that said, getting to whom the scripture is addressed to is vital. Three classifications of people - Jew, Gentile, Church of God. The book of Romans is structured in such a way that both Jew and Gentile are left short of the promises of God and only faith can include anyone into salvation, faith in Jesus as Lord. There are sections of Romans addressed to Jews, sections addressed to Gentiles, and sections addressed to those born again. This basic classification is evident throughout scripture. God's promises to Abraham were made based on faith, not circumsion - works of the flesh. Israel assumed they were righteous by good works. Gentiles assumed their inclusion gave a pedestal to boast against Israel. God explained and concluded that all, both Jew and Gentile, are under sin and short of God's righteousness which is by faith. Dan does not understand, or chooses to ignore the structure of Romans and/or to whom the scripture is addressed.

And just exactly how does that differ from having a so-called "man of god" declare that you have turned your back on God by refusing to obey? That's what TWI has been doing for decades. Nope, I don't buy it. No, that's just sociological justification for keeping people in emotional and social bondage to the will of charlatans. Especially since there's been, with accelerating development of medical technology, an astonishing rise in near-death experiences that consistently (exclusively) suggest that "crossing over to the other side" is a peaceful, wonderful experience. And there's been NO link to any exclusive religious belief or experience by those who have reported such experiences. Which all also raises substantial doubt about Wierwille's declaration of whether the Dead are Alive Now.