RainbowsGirl

Congratulations to You both!!! Enjoy the Journey;leading and walking with and following Your child through all the many stages of growth!!!Every moment is precious in its own way!!! It's unfortunate that no one has of yet found away to bottle the unique smell of a beautiful newborn baby; yet it is still a smell that your heart always will keep and remember!!!

Why would a Good God send people to an everlasting hell? In conclusion now that many angles from all participants have been represented, I would like to clarify some points and issues and make a few closing remarks. Sounding like a defense attorney without the proper credentials; I well suppose? Not really, but I will be using it as an analogy. A Christian is to always be ready to defend the gospel with scriptural evidence. Scripture is; from a bible based Christian standpoint, GOD’s testimony and evidence of Himself. GOD states that he is His Word and that Jesus Christ is the Word in the Flesh. Scripture is God’s testimony and His evidence. Without scripture we would only have speculative, segmented and subjective accounts of GOD’s attributes, Will and Ways. It would be difficult to see or understand why a Good GOD would send people to an everlasting hell. The why, needs to be satisfied by evidence from GOD; and as a Christian I am to represent that testimony and evidence to the best of my ability. Not all believe!!! That is a separate issue. 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Phl 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. Phl 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. We have a defense attorney and I might just add the perfect defense attorney in Jesus Christ …the word in the flesh…our Savior; which most men can only hope that their earthly defense attorney will be to them, in their time of need. 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Romans chapter 8 discusses this : Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. A Good defense attorney makes their case in accordance with the laws and statues of their jurisdiction. Man has his rules, laws and jurisdiction and likewise so does GOD have His Rules laws and jurisdiction. Whenever the attorneys case is weak he uses age old strategies, techniques and tactics to dissuade, confuse or discredit his opponent’s evidence; such as misrepresentation, mischaracterization, gas lighting, misleading partial quotes and exurbs in an attempt to dismantle the credibility of the evidences presented by his opponent. GOD states that his Word and Ways are perfect and flawless; that makes His case perfect. He needs no extraneous strategies techniques or tactics to win. He has already won. He has always known the outcome. He is the Alpha and the Omega. He wishes all to believe Him; even unto salvation; but He allows man to choose for His reasons. Some we understand and some we do not! Everything that pertains to life and godliness is in the bible for anyone who wants it - as He GOD is and wants it to be. If GOD doesn’t exist for anyone or only exists by your own definition so be it; none of what I say will matter in that case. It is also well known that those who reject scripture as evidence reject it as believable testimony; So they should not be upset if I am wrong. The Issue of this thread is: Why would a Good God send people to an everlasting hell? The Why of this is the issue that I presented. It is not how hell is defined and it is not whether or not those sent to hell are destroyed in eternal death, or are absent from the presence of GOD for eternity. They pertain and anyone can bring them in as they wish to. This is a doctrinal thread, so I am representing GOD’s scriptural testimony and evidence concerning WHY?. It is anyone’s choice whether they believe it or not. It becomes a question of GOD’s integrity with man. I will use this example as it was eluded to, that I have “way think” Example: In PFAL we were taught that Man’s basic spiritual problem is, was and will always be the integrity of HIS, GOD’s Word. I am a student of the bible and a Christian, so I check the relevance of things that I study. TWI plagiarized a lot, and doctrinally twisted it to suit their agendas; but they did not invalidate the scriptures themselves…often only their application and intent. So looking at integrity and its definition: in•teg•ri•ty [ in téggrətee ] noun Definition: 1. possession of firm principles: the quality of possessing and steadfastly adhering to high moral principles or professional standards 2. completeness: the state of being complete or undivided ( formal ) the territorial integrity of the nation 3. wholeness: the state of being sound or undamaged ( formal ) public confidence in the integrity of the voting process I see this statement as true. The spiritual battle between man and GOD is to whether man believes the scriptures are true or not, whether they are God breathed or not, and whether or not there is a right dividing of them. When I stated that GOD is a black and white thinker I was referring to his absoluteness and his objectivity, being relevant to His unchanging standards as they are set in His Word. He stated of Himself that he does not change from being “I am that I am” I was in no way indicating that he is not loving , gracious, merciful, forgiving, patient and kind and all the far to many to count wonderful attributes of God; but they are set in accordance with His set standards and not man’s often ever changing standards. What GOD testifies of Himself does not change. What does change is the interpretation by the interpreter of what GOD says. I study to endeavor not to privately interpret GOD’s Word and Will. I want to know the whole picture of GOD; with all of. His Why’s, His Wherefores and all of His perfect attributes. I LOVE Him just the way that he is Perfect Love and Perfect Light.

It is my belief and understanding that it is GOD's Word; Not all believe GOD; but I am convinced and believe HIS testimony concerning Himself and HIS Word!!! 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

GOD is absolutely black and white, truly and thoroughly unwaveringly objective about what he says; Where on the other hand most men are not...that is the reason for the gulf between man and GOD!!! Man likes to be his own god and/or hew out his own gods, and live by his own rationales, ideologies, religions, and justifications. Jesus Christ is GOD's solution. Man's solution is to innovate their own individualized solutions!!! How You use your free will choices are entirely up to you; that won't change one iota or jot and tittle of GOD's Word, HIS Ways or HIS Acts!!! Have a Nice Man's Day!!!

Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell? 1. What is hell? Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” : 2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;-cut off from intimate union with God (Rev 21:3; & Rev 22:4 : Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Hell’s darkness and flames (which, if literal, would cancel each other out) are figurative, portraying anguish and hopelessness without God. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)-: Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Spirit beings, which are unaffected by physical fire. Let’s address some hell-related questions that unbelievers and believers find troubling. 2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?” Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis). 3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?” No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief! Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret. Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG) 4. “But how can people be sent to hell without knowing it’s full implications?” Even if one isn’t fully aware of hell’s anguish, this doesn’t mean our choice is too much to bear. God is ready to equip anyone for salvation (John 16:8): All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!! Jhn 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. Jhn 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Jhn 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. Jhn 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. Jhn 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? Jhn 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; Jhn 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Jhn 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!! Though the full consequences of our embracing or rejecting God aren’t fully apparent to us now, grace to choose responsibly is available to all. What prevents the salvation of everyone? Individuals’ choosing freely to reject God’s grace. We can always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51 - 60). Act 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your father’s persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it]. Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth. Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. God doesn’t send people to hell; they freely reject him, condemning themselves by not acknowledging their guilt. (Unto true repentance!!!) 5. “Why didn’t God make the world in such a way that all people would love him?” While a world in which everyone loves God is theoretically possible, it is not feasible. Whatever possible world with free creatures God could create, it may be that none is sin-free, and God’s love isn’t forced. Hell-the absence of God’s presence-exists because, like Milton’s Satan, people would rather “reign in hell than serve in heaven.” God isn’t unloving but rather has gone to great lengths to show grace to everyone. Should God not create at all because many freely resist Him in the world God created and thus deprive many others of the greatest good possible? 6. “Why did God create people He knew would reject and be separated from Him forever?” Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 2Cr 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Despite God’s desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), many still resist. 7. What if some become more resistant no matter how loving God is? Isaiah 5:4; & Matt 23:37? Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Mat 23:24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness. Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous, Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 8. Should God not create those who would respond to His love simply because others would refuse it? Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. God’s will supersedes mankind’s will both selectively and collectively; whether we regard it believe it, or fully understand it!!! Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread. Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. 9. What if God created a world in which a maximal balance of least condemned and most redeemed was realized? This is not unloving. He is all knowing ever present and omnipotent. What we do and decide to do with our Free will is known from the beginning to the end by the Alpha and Omega. He sees from the outside of time and space contingencies and restrains, the boundaries given to man, because our knowledge and wisdom is limited and finite (RG.) Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 10. “Why wouldn’t God, from the start, make us like heavens saints-loving God while unable to sin?” “Even Angels and heavens host have free will! The Devil and a third of the angels fell for trying to usurp the throne of GOD. Every idol that mankind puts before GOD is at enmity with the only true Holy Creator and only REAL GOD!” (RG.) Exd 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; Robust freedom on earth-to embrace freely God’s grace or resist it-is a requirement for arriving at one’s final destiny. Our earthly direction is “sealed” in the afterlife; our heart’s desire is finally granted-God or no God. So God couldn’t have created a heaven-like state in which the redeemed no longer sin without damaging this vitally important freedom. (Or perhaps, rather than “sealing” us from sin in the afterlife, God simply foreknows that no saint will actually freely sin, guaranteeing a sin-free condition in the final state.) Finally, because God has so fully given of Himself to make salvation freely available through His Son, we can confidently entrust any lingering questions about hell to His excellent character. By: Paul Copan ( is in Italicized blue print excerpts) Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis). This bears repeating Yes a Good GOD will absolutely do as He says He will do! He will do this for perfectly just reasons, that are higher than a total accummulation of all mankind's, in total, reasonings, religions and ideologies...simply because HE is the Creator, The Alpha and the Omega, the only wise GOD and All knowing and All powerful!!! He has and continues to demonstrate His LOVE and will unto the end Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Oak, This is not personal so please don't take it that way. I thought I read you are a neopagan? Is that right? The bible is very well documented more than any other ancient book. They would have been very careful in copying it down. We have more copies than any other old book. We are even finding more. What is it you trust so about the oral tradition in Paganism that leaves some much room for doubt in the written documents we have for the bible?

Oak,I was not addressing Abigail, and I stand by my statements to Doojable for the reason I stated!

It all depends on how much evidence you need....it is not like Jesus came in the flesh to declare GOD or anything. :)

Oak, Biblically objectivity has withstood the test of time, when it it not intermingled with subjective doctrines of men it has been historically documented by biblical researchers (not TWI, as their research was a farce). This is not to say that there are no errors in translations by the handling of men, but biblical scholar's are more often than not able to point out these added or substracted by men errors. These errors have usually been incorporated into translation to line up with the varying subjective doctrines of men! An example I will cite is the book of Daniel (old testament) was written long before the book of Revelation and it actuatly lines up with scriptural references of then yet future events that are refered to in Revelation and beyond the Bible history. Both Daniel and Revelation make reference to Alexander The Great: [edit] Four Persian Kings In Daniel 11:2-4, the angel Gabriel informs the prophet that there will be four Persian kings before the coming of Alexander the Great. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven. Since the author of Daniel wrote during the reign of Cyrus (Daniel 10:1), this would then make him the first Persian king of Daniel 11:2. Cyrus defeated Babylon in 536 BC. Alexander took the kingdom from the last Persian king in 333 BC. This gives us 203 years for the Persian reign. Split among four kings, we get an average of about 51 years each, which is somewhat excessive. There were nine Persian kings from Cyrus to Alexander. They are: Cyrus (549 - 529 BC) Cambyses (529 - 522 BC) Darius I (521 - 485 BC) Xerxes (485 - 465 BC) Artaxerxes I (465 - 425 BC) Darius II (425 - 405 BC) Artaxerxes II (404 - 358 BC) Artaxerxes III (358 - 338 BC) Darius III (338 - 330 BC) The author of Daniel may have been misled by the fact that the Old Testament only mentions four of the nine Persian kings - Cyrus (Ezra 1:1), Darius I (Ezra 4:5), Xerxes I (Ahasuerus - Ezra 4:6) and Artaxerxes I (Ezra 4:7).[9] However, Xerxes I, the fourth king from the time of history in the book of Daniel, did in fact invade Greece and instigated the Greco-Persian wars, in which he was ultimately defeated.[24] Since it is normal in prophetic sections of the Hebrew Bible to have no mention of large chronological gaps between historical events, the predictions regarding the fourth king of Persia warring in Greece and that of Alexander the Great are not necessarily to be understood as one immediately following the other.[original research?] The successive sentences indicate a successive thematic relationship, i.e. the struggle between Persia and Greece, rather than a chronological one Old Testament Bible prophesies concerning Jesus Christ shows the objectivity and inerrant accuracy of GOD's Word. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the old testiment prophesie concerning himself True Christianity is a logical faith...You either believe it or You don't we can't just dismiss the bible out of hand....... IT IS a phenomenon in and of itself The Bible was written: over a 1500 year span (from 1400 B.C to A.D. 100) over 40 generations over 40 authors from many walks of life (i.e. - kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars) in different places (i.e. - wilderness, dungeon, palaces) at different times (i.e. - war, peace) in different moods (i.e. - heights of joy, depths of despair) on three continents (Asia, Africa, and Europe) in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek)

Oak, They, Pluralistic viewpoints are not objectively True; which is without bias and without being influenced by personal feelings and opinions. Subjectively is based on opinions and feelings rather than facts or evidence Subjective is not at all indicative of truth. Pluralistic viewpoints have no real measure of accuracy. Interesting usage of :1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "Now I know in part" what I need to know to receive eternal life in GOD's presence based on GOD and the Bible. The Thread is: Why Would A Good God Send People To an Everlasting Hell?

Thank You Linda, And this once and again demonstrates: Just what is our excuse anyway for not walking in Love and Light???

Thank You RumRunner, and Geisha This Father, Mother and Son know and truly understand the depth and riches of GOD’s perfect Love. It strengthens them to endure every obstacle or cruelty laid in their paths. They Live Love. When You Live Love you can understand GOD’s Love and constantly be infused and strengthened by it. For GOD is perfect Love. Perfect love casts out fear...fear of anything!!! 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. GOD’s Love taught that man not to reject his own son to fight for him and to learn from his sons special abilities, love, energy and strength. It was GOD’s Love that casts out fear. It is GOD’s LOVE that has opened their eyes to see with their hearts as well as their minds and to walk in that Love. They see a whole picture, and a whole family knit together in LOVE. GOD wants us to see his heart His love, His grace, His mercy, His joy, His judgments, His justice and all his other attributes as he shows us in His Word. It declares Him as a whole; so that we see the whole picture and are a whole family knit together in LOVE GOD is LOVE and He created us in that LOVE and by that Love. That love is shed abroad in our hearts. That is the reason we know how to love, and can love or even understand love. GOD is light and there is no darkness in HIM...no darkness at all!!! When we take things, people or GOD apart from the whole of them we become knit pickers and judges of their parts and see only a part of a part; and separated in part. Seeing only what we want to see and how we choose to see it!!! There is no truth in that examination and that dissection without knowing the whole as the sum of it's parts; wrong is concluded and propounded!!! A fragmented view misrepresents the whole!!! Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. The wholeness of Love heals and sustains us against any odds!!! 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. 1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Oak I will answer You with scripture and hope You understand my correlation to Your post, which is a marvelously conceived analogy Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead? Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

You are Right RumRunner, It is very much on topic!!! Geisha did an excellant job!!! She knows that she did not need to ask my permission for anything, no one does...she just did it out of politeness and wondering whether or not I was already addressing it (Your post). I am very glad that she did!!! I would have never addressed it nearly as well as she has!!!

Are You saying that You don't know how to be fair and if so, I understand? Yet, if You know how to be fair in a horizontal way...man to man, why according to the definite of being fair does it exclude being fair concerning GOD and His Word. I already stated that GOD does not expect us to be fair as a requirement; but by definite we are fair when we are not biased, and when we reasonable and impartially, in this case, examine and study The Bible to learn about GOD. It is not possible to gain a true and impartial knowledge of anyone or anything, including GOD or His Word without being fair; Otherwise the result is blurred or skewed. Without preconception based on previous experience (example TWI.....the bad experiences and confused self propagation usage and twisting of GOD's Word.) Encata Dictionary: fair (1) fair [ fer ] adjective (comparative fair·er, superlative fair·est) Definition: 1. reasonable or unbiased: not exhibiting any bias, and therefore reasonable or impartial a fair decision 2. done properly: done according to the rules fair and free elections 3. not stormy or cloudy: sunny or clear, and without much wind fair weather 4. nautical good for sailing: describes conditions that are favorable for sailing or travel by boat a fair wind 5. pleasing to look at: beautiful or pleasing to the eye ( literary ) a fair maiden 6. not blocked: clear and unobstructed a fair view of the enemy's forces 7. light-colored: with light-colored hair or skin 8. sizeable: reasonably large in size or quantity They had a fair number of responses to the advertisement. 9. acceptable: no more than acceptable or average Your performance this year has been only fair. 10. better than acceptable: moderately good or reasonable a fair understanding 11. unsullied: not marred by any blemish or stain to preserve your fair name 12. false despite appearances: seemingly good or true, but actually false or insincere fair words 13. baseball in fair territory: constituting a fair ball according to the rules of baseball The ball's not going to stay fair. adverb Definition: 1. properly: in accordance with the rules or what is expected She's always played fair with me. 2. baseball in fair territory: in or into fair territory on a baseball field 3. directly: in a direct or straight way, and squarely hit fair in the center of the board verb (past and past participle faired, present participle fair·ing, 3rd person present singular fairs) Definition: 1. intransitive verb Scotland improve: to become bright after cloud or rain ( refers to the weather or sky ) 2. transitive verb make smooth and even: to smooth or streamline the surface of something such as an aircraft wing or tabletop [ Old English faeger "beautiful" < Germanic, "suitable"] fair and square justly, fairly, or according to the rules fair enough acceptable and understandable, but not ideal fair's fair used to urge or appeal for just or even treatment (informal) fair to middling reasonably good or reasonably well (informal)hyphenated when used before a noun for fair U.S. utterly or completely (informal) no fair used to indicate that something is unfair or against the rules (informal)

Thank You Mark for Your contributions, although we don't completely agree youhave made sound documentable and credible statements!!!

Doojable wrote:

Kimberly Wrote: RG wrote in post #1:

Oak when you take excerpts out of my replies to you and twist them to suit your point of view;I don't know what to do with that, I think a real honest upfront conversation would be much better

Oak Wrote: QUOTE (RainbowsGirl @ Jan 20 2009, 05:21 PM) Geisha wrote: Prayer is a conversation with GOD...Excuse me, are you capitalizing "God" out of respect, or emphasis? Both Oak QUOTE ... to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental.Yup, got that. This is not news. I was fairly sure it wasn't new to You QUOTE When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD.I learned it in & out of TWI Me too!!! QUOTE We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.So pray. In what verse does it say that you have to tell us that you're praying for us? I don't recall any verse that requires a Christan to inform you that we are praying for You or Your soul...I think that it is optional. This brings a question to my mind that I hope that You might answer: Why would it bother You if anyone is praying for Your soul ??? You have at the very least an intellectual knowledge of GOD and Christianity there fore you know full well that this a common practice in Christianity and that it is GOD's desire that we demonstrate HIS Love and HIS Will Except, I wish that You recognized that it isn't done with disdain or persecution or merely to convert by proselytizing. When I pray for someones Soul this is what is in my heart: First of all Godly Love. Next of all Godly Compassion, then Hope.. I am thinking, that we both believe differently and we both are convinced to some degree that what we live and believe is the truth. I can only speak for myself , but personally I believe GOD is the absolute truth. I am just sharing my heart now Oak; so then I think of the justice and judgment of GOD and Eternity and why wouldn't I pray for any one's soul to be saved from eternally being in hell??? If it were You in my shoes and me in Your's...both of us being human both of us having an understand of some of differences between right and wrong or good and evil. Would you not pray for my soul that I would not spend eternity in hell??? It isn't a place that I would want to go to or see anyone go to for ...eternity..... The difference between us is that I Love GOD and believe Him and You don't Love GOD. He at the very least angers, offends and convicts You with His Word, How can it hurt or offend you so if You have abandoned GOD and His Word and believe that He is only one of many gods and not a very nice one and from Your perspective jealous, cruel, unjust and unloving. Is it because You know that He exists and that He will perform His Word and cast some to hell? You get to choose to dislike or hate him or even believe that He does not exist. If I didn't believe in GOD it would be foolish and ludicrous and very harmless if anyone in a loving way prayed for my soul or not; If I was totally convinced and convicted in my beliefs. Why is it that You can never focus on GOD's Love, Mercy and Grace and only rather HIS Judgment and Justice??? True Christan's don't thro GOD or His Word unloving in pagans faces, nor do they feel in any way superior to them. The difference is that a Christan recognizes GOD in a Christan way and repents to GOD personally and lives that standard and a Pagan rejects Christianity and lives in a pagan way and opposes repentance. We ALL choose. It would break my heart and I have permission to add Geisha's to know anyone that is condemned to hell. QUOTE Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.Agreed. Pray, pray without ceasing, but when you tell me that you're praying for me, usually it's proselytizing (sp?). The spoken and written Word of GOD speaks in the form of doctrine reproof and correction. In all the doctrinal threads that any nonbeliever in The God of the Bible have posted in I have only seen contempt, anger, disdain and judgment toward GOD, no attempt is ever made to recognize His Love, Goodness , Mercy, Justice, Fairness of His Word and Will as a whole. Even when I am being fair and impartial with Geisha's post and at length present it scripturally for you in Love. You directly are ignoring the obvious and malign and impugning Jesus for saying it and further use it to state you are being persecuted by Christan's and Christianity. In this thread alone lie Your examples...the one's You request!!! But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed. This is address above QUOTE Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect? This is also addressed in the above replies QUOTE What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god. This is accusative and maligning and impugning of my GOD...an example QUOTE You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references,Appalled no, offended yes. Take that up with GOD as I have never attack You or Your beliefs...the Word of GOD that I speak and write is from GOD although I whole heartedly believe it I don't attack You with it and neither by the way does GOD attack You with it GOD's purpose is Salvation for ALL mankind!!! QUOTE I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting. Concerning GOD and HIS Word You have tunnel vision and selectively seeing only in part and only what You want to see. I am never happy to see anyone twist GOD's Word or blame GOD for their personal viewpoints or trials, tribulations and consequences. QUOTE Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, ...I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with that Only a blind man would say without evidence that my rely was biased to Geisha's post because of my biblical point of view as a Christian I jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology. I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al. (sp?). I am truly truly very sorry Oak and Anyone else who feels this way or believes this that You're perspective of GOD, Christianity and Christain is so clouded and jaded But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed. This is addressed above

Geisha wrote: Dear ((((Bramble and Kimberly and Anyone))))) else concerned, Prayer is a conversation with GOD to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental. When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD. We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout. Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner. Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind. What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry? You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references, I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain. The only scripture I would like to discuss here is the following context of the verse that Geisha quoted: Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Jesus was instructing and teaching his disciples and followers: 1. Give not that which is holy – GOD says that His word is Holy; as Holy as God is Holy and that He magnifies it to His Children by setting it above His own absolute Holiness. 2. Unto the dogs – they were scavengers and feed the crumbs underneath their masters table 3. Neither cast your pearls - Pearls are the knowledge , wisdom, understanding and practical application of the Word of GOD…why because: 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. 4. Before swine – Jesus’ statement here is figurative and empathic and indicative of the nature of swine. Swine will feast on anything. This is a comparison between the opposing pagan doctrines of men. Pagans notoriously are attracted to and accepting of many manmade doctrines throughout their lifetimes and tend to be very tolerant of pluralistic thinking and multiple doctrines. They are seeking a belief system and view GOD as harsh hateful, intolerance and cruel at odds with their choices. They seem to over value this being man’s day to the utmost…this is my humble opinion anyway…Partaking of God’s goodness’s to all without regard to his Will or doctrine, reproof and instruction. Man’s Will is done in Man’s Day by God’s allowance of free will choice and likewise, GOD will have HIS Day when HIS Will, will be done. 5. Lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and render you - opposing doctrines natural cause division, stress, endless debates. Be not unequally yoked together, because there is no equally of doctrine…there is only opposition. There is personal respect and genuine Godly love and concern and compassion from a Christian standpoint and prayers are genuine. Jesus laid down HIS LIFE FOR ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION OF MANKIND…There is no greater love!!! GOD loves everyone and hopes that ALL men might be saved!!! We Christians are imitators of GOD!!! Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. GOD is the only Judge and judgement is also a two way street. Christians’ are not judging pagans they are standing up for GOD from a Godly viewpoint, in a Godly manner! Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? This applies to all the contentions and accusations Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, and Bramble and Kimberly or Anyone else, I don’t see her remarks as a personal attack and I don’t see any reason for her to apologize for being a Christian!!! She is not expecting nor hoping for an apology from either of you or anyone else. On the contrary to your views of her intents I have always seen her bend our backwards with true and genuine grace , love and compassion for ALL!!!

Leafytwigley Sorry I missed your Birthday!!!