J.E. Stiles The Gift of the Holy Spirit book

[oldiesman]

This information should be provided for free to all ex-way. :o ;)

[potato]

I reeeeaaaally hope that was a joke, OM.

[Raf]

When I see the word for word comparison in question form, then I agree with you.

But I don't see that here.

I'm assuming you mean you don't see that in ATDAN, right? Because even you have to admit it's well-documented in RTHST. And I don't know if you ever looked for it in The Green Book, but I can look that up if you'd like (although I think it's on the Juedes site for free).

[Raf]

It's not on Juedes' site, but it is something Juedes co-wrote.

http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/way/eisegsis2.htm

Quotes below are from the above article:

"I have fully reviewed your letter of March 7, 1986, concerning alleged copyright violations. Please be informed that I have compared your reference of Chapter 20 of E.W. Kenyon's The Father And His Family to Chapter 3 of the work Then New Dynamic Church, by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. While there are similarities in thought and ideas, there is no evidence of duplication or "plagiarism," and certainly there has been no violation of the U.S. Copyright Law as you suggest."

TWI attorney Nolan Yogi

LIAR!

Kenyon: I suppose I have lost faith in myself. You see I have wanted to be a Christian, I have wanted to have God's help in this fight of life. I have gone to the altar again and again, and received nothing. I've sought and cried after God so many times and failed. (FHF, pg. 229)

Wierwille (The Searcher): I suppose ... I have lost faith in myself. You see, I really wanted to be a Christian, to have God's ... help in life ... I went to the altar again and again and yet I received nothing. I have sought and cried after God so much and so many times that I feel that I am a complete failure. (NDC, pg. 1)

Kenyon: Did you ever realize that salvation is a gift, that it is not necessary that you go any place to get it? You can find it anywhere. Did you ever realize that it is not what you do, but what He did for you that counts? All there is to receiving Eternal Life, becoming a child of God is to receive something instead of giving something. You have tried to get it by earning it. (FHF, pg. 229)

Wierwille: Did you ever stop to think that salvation is a gift, that it is unnecessary for you to go anywhere to get it? You can find God anywhere ... . Do you realize that to receive salvation is not dependent upon what you do but what He did for you? Do you realize that to be a child of God, to receive Eternal Life ... is to receive something instead of giving something? You have missed the joy of His fellowship because you have tried to earn or work for it. (NDC, pg. 1)

Edited January 19, 2007 by Raf

[WordWolf]

It amazes me that some people think plagiarism relies on many things that have nothing to

do with plagiarism.

A) Intent.

"Until I see a confession that the person intended to plagiarize,

I don't consider it plagiarism."

Plagiarism is plagiarism whether the person admits to it (no crime's dependant upon a confession),

and intent doesn't affect plagiarism.

What makes this especially silly is that any high school student, let alone college or

grad school student, is well aware of what plagiarism is and how wrong it is.

So, "ignorance of the law" is not an issue here. Any high school graduate who plagiarized

INTENDED to plagiarize.

In this particular case, it is part of the complete picture, taken with what he DID say on

the record, that demonstrates he set out to put forth that himself was some great one.

B) Identical phrasing.

"It's only plagiarism if the exact same words are used in the exact same order."

Hogwash.

If one says that initially, one demonstrates a lack of understanding of plagiarism.

If one CONTINUES to say this, then one demonstrates a determined ignorance

of plagiarism, a dogged persistence to ignore what plagiarism means and how

it works, even faced with clear explanations of both.

If a writer takes the exact words from another writer without citation,

that is plagiarism.

If a writer shuffles some of the words of another writer around,

and swaps in some synonyms, maybe shuffles the paragraph around,

and doesn't cite his source,

it is STILL plagiarism.

That's the same thing as the first case, with a few cosmetic changes to try to

deceive his audience.

Of course, one may see all the explanations of how plagiarism works for

everyone except those trying to excuse vpw of plagiarism

(99.9999 of the population or more, plus all the legal definitions, and the ones

used in courts of law, all institutions of learning, and by virtually all Christians),

and decide

"well, I'm coming up with my own definition of what plagiarism is and whether it's

a crime."

That's about as legitimate as saying

"I'm coming up with my own definition of what murder is and whether it's a crime."

You'll end up with a definition that is meaningless to anyone but you and carries

no force for any other English speaker.

[Raf]

The honest way to approach such a rewrite while still taking responsibility for the contents is to refer to your own writing as an adaptation of the earlier work. It gives proper credit to the source material while conveying that you are amending it for whatever reason.

I'll give you an example: in an early edition of "Future Considerations" (Chris Geer's newsletter back in 1989-92 or so), there's an article called "The Cry of Triumph." I believe the byline on the article says "Adapted By Walter Cummins." I don't remember specifically. And, if I'm not mistaken, Wierwille was credited as well.

This gave Cummins the flexibility to retain Wierwille's words whenever he wanted, as he was not claiming original authorship. Yet he could also change whatever he wanted to account for differences of opinion based on further research (or error, depending on whether you accept Cummins' re-write).

I'm not sure how the adaptation model works legally: could Wierwille legally adapt something written by someone else when he does not hold the copyright to the original work? Don't know. Not every copyright violation is plagiarism.

[Belle]

OM, it costs a whopping $2 and JJ doesn't owe me, you or anyone else anything. This is actually stuff we should have been checking and finding on our own, don't you think?

[Raf]

don't you think?

Not often. :)

[waysider]

because of the mentions Stiles has gotten on this board, I ordered a copy from amazon marketplace. it arrived a couple of days ago. best I can figure, it's a second edition published in 1951 or so.

it's really, really eerie reading it. I keep feeling like, wow, he totally ripped that off from v.p. wierwille... but this material and the decade or so of teaching that predates the book came before v.p. wierwille claims to have been inspired by God to teach this material.

it's just so... weird. the turns of phrase are all there. the practical teaching is all there. the letters included in the book could have been written by newly converted wayfers if the language indicating a home church affiliation was censored out.

I know all this has been posted before, but I'm in a state of starry-eyed wonder tonight.

BUMP!

[Broken Arrow]

BUMP!

Wherefore dost thou bumpeth?

Edited June 1, 2011 by Broken Arrow

[waysider]

Wherefore dost thou bumpeth?

Go to my post and click on the arrow to the left of "potato". That will take you to the beginning of the thread.

[Kit Sober]

Thanks for bringing this up. I ordered a copy also. Made me cry. Such a life of the Holy Spirit in there (that we never received from the plagiarized version).

JE Stiles walked with God and received this stuff from the Holy Spirit and put it down on paper. Truly his heart went out to "... that great group of hungry Christians who have tarried and wept before God, longing to be filled with the Holy Spirit, whose hopes have not yet been realized." because he was among them.

In my opinion, truly JE Stiles yearned that "May we ever keep before us the thought of glorifying Him, who loved us and gave Himself for us , by becoming like Him, for that is the only correct objective of the Christian life." From the dedication of JE Stiles' book, "The Gift of the Holy Spirit."

It is a crying shame that we never got to read it in the original without such a long delay, in my opinion.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Kit Sober

[Broken Arrow]

Go to my post and click on the arrow to the left of "potato". That will take you to the beginning of the thread.

Okay, I'll speak in plain English. Why are you bumping this? Is there something in particular in this thread that you want to discuss or keep discussing?

[waysider]

Oh, I see. You meant WHY-fore.

I bumped it up because, on another thread (that I can't remember now), someone was singing the praises of VP (He wasn't really a Dr.) Wierwille's work on RTHST.

[Kit Sober]

I had hoped that this book was in the "public domain" so it could be posted at Greasespot Cafe and had emailed Pawtucket my request. But from the book I obtained at Amazon.com it was reprinted (and copyrighted) by Revell in 1971, and therefore cannot be legitimately freely posted without the publsher's permisison. In my opinion this book is a clear example of the difference between twi and other truly alive Christians as resource for direction into "normal" Christian living which is empowered by the Holy Spirit.

[Broken Arrow]

Oh, I see. You meant WHY-fore.

I bumped it up because, on another thread (that I can't remember now), someone was singing the praises of VP (He wasn't really a Dr.) Wierwille's work on RTHST.

Ohhhhh!

[waysider]

Like it hasn't been known for 2,000 years.

HERE

Edited June 7, 2011 by waysider

[Kit Sober]

This thread got me rereading "The Gift of the Holy Spirit" and it is so precious because of the life of the Lord in there. It is a valuable book written by the one who learned the words from the Holy Spirit first hand and hoped to help others by sharing what the Holy Spirit taught him. In my opinion JE Stiles was a man who truly longed to help people who yearned for the Holy Spirit to achieve the desire of their heart, which is most precious.

[rrobs]

Has anyone learned about holy spirit from Stiles or Bullinger? VP was the one who taught it to me.

I care more about the baby than how I got it. If VP had photocopied the books and wrote his name over the author's name, it's still the truth, and I operate all nine all the time. Will it somehow be "invalid" because VP copied it? And let's face it folks, VP went beyond either of these two men of God. They paved the way for VP, built the bridge, and VP paved the way for us.

Edited June 24, 2017 by rrobs

[Bolshevik]

They are as valid as the Communist Manifesto.

It's not invalid because VPW copied it.  It's invalid because nobody operates all nine all the time in reality.  VPW didn't go beyond, he repeated the same mistakes seen throughout The Old Testament. 

He copied works that support Totalitarian rule.  Which always fails.  That is all.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Bolshevik
Communist / Marxist / Whatever

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, rrobs said:

Has anyone learned about holy spirit from Stiles or Bullinger? VP was the one who taught it to me.

I care more about the baby than how I got it. If VP had photocopied the books and wrote his name over the author's name, it's still the truth, and I operate all nine all the time. Will it somehow be "invalid" because VP copied it? And let's face it folks, VP went beyond either of these two men of God. They paved the way for VP, built the bridge, and VP paved the way for us.

Welcome to Grease Spot and I hope you enjoy looking around here.

I am a little curious about you saying you operate all nine all the time. Can you elaborate on that? 

And do look around Grease Spot there's a lot of stuff here that may be of interest to you. Like vp's plagiarism. I know you said vp paved the way but there's another thing that's important to consider - 

vp lied about his academic knowledge of biblical Greek and fabricated his experiences with the Holy Spirit (there's lots of threads on Grease Spot that get into this btw) bottom line is - vp was not just a flagrant plagiarist - he was an incompetent teacher; his academic shortcomings become evident when even someone with a basic working knowledge of biblical Greek sees how vp parsed a passage in his book "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today".

For someone like vp who taught "integrity and accuracy" were so important when it comes to the Bible - I find it extremely odd there was so little of either in all he said and done. 

When it's said someone "paved the way" it usually means they made the journey easier for others to follow using their pathway. If you care to look a little deeper on Grease Spot you'll also find many accounts of the followers of vp who were on a long and arduous journey in frustration and disappointment. I don't think most folks appreciate someone "paving the way" to that!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

4 hours ago, rrobs said:

Has anyone learned about holy spirit from Stiles or Bullinger? VP was the one who taught it to me.

I care more about the baby than how I got it. If VP had photocopied the books and wrote his name over the author's name, it's still the truth, and I operate all nine all the time. Will it somehow be "invalid" because VP copied it? And let's face it folks, VP went beyond either of these two men of God. They paved the way for VP, built the bridge, and VP paved the way for us.

Paved the way for us??  What do you mean??

[JayDee]

6 hours ago, rrobs said:

Has anyone learned about holy spirit from Stiles or Bullinger? VP was the one who taught it to me.

I care more about the baby than how I got it. If VP had photocopied the books and wrote his name over the author's name, it's still the truth, and I operate all nine all the time. Will it somehow be "invalid" because VP copied it? And let's face it folks, VP went beyond either of these two men of God. They paved the way for VP, built the bridge, and VP paved the way for us.

Geez. Please don't. 

[Rocky]

Perhaps rrob is the infrequent wayfer who thinks he can reason some sense into the reprobates at GSC... Hey rrob, nice try but you're spinning your wheels.

[WordWolf]

"Has anyone learned about holy spirit from Stiles or Bullinger? VP was the one who taught it to me."

Lots of people learned about it from Stiles, and learned more than they did before from Bullinger (due to how publication worked when Bullinger was writing and was alive.)  As for who taught you, lots of other people taught you.  They approached you, they taught Bible fellowships you attended, they cared and showed love, and talked you into signing up for (and paying for) a class where vpw pretended he was The Source for learning about all that.

"I care more about the baby than how I got it."

So, if someone stole your car and gave it to someone else who was praying for a car, should that recipient just praise God-and should you just drop the subject because they technically had a prayer answered?

" If VP had photocopied the books and wrote his name over the author's name, it's still the truth,"

Actually, a considerable amount of error in "his" material has been uncovered-partly because he often failed to understand what he was plagiarizing. So, when there were correctable errors in the material, he saw NOTHING because he was busy copying it over and pretending it was his work. It's rather telling that you'd be perfectly comfortable with vpw committing both felonies and moral transgressions in plagiarizing the material, because you like the material. That says a lot about your moral fiber.

"and I operate all nine all the time."

No you don't. You repeat a slogan all the time. In the entire history of twi, nobody operated "all nine, all the time", not even wierwille. That you can even suggest that, again, says a lot.  In what little posting you've done, you've used the words of a few people- vpw among them.   If you haven't had an original thought by now, I doubt you're going to.

"Will it somehow be "invalid" because VP copied it?"

No, but vpw is exposed as a fraud once it's shown he DID copy that- and nearly everything else in twi's history. But all this is about whitewashing vpw and giving him a free pass.  If it was someone else plagiarizing vpw, there'd be a hue and cry for their blood!

" And let's face it folks, VP went beyond either of these two men of God. "

Let's face it folks, vpw went beyond either of them in building up an image as a man of God. The others were too busy being men of God to inflate their image like vpw did. Without Stiles and Leonard, vpw would have faded into obscurity and none of us would have heard of him. And lots more people have heard of Bullinger than of vpw, and he was busy being an academic and not puffing himself up.

"They paved the way for VP, built the bridge, and VP paved the way for us."

vpw ripped them off, and he derailed the "House of Acts" Christians in California. He did his best to grab those young, dedicated Christians, choke off their spiritual gifts, and turn them into salesmen for twi.  vpw paved the way for none of us. vpw paved the way for vpw to get lots of money, lots of adulation, women to rape, and sycophants who would worship at his image even decades after he died. twi, at every level, was designed-by vpw- to operate AT A FINANCIAL PROFIT.