I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure.
But those aren't the only factors to consider, and not the primary factors necessarily. I see at least three elements - God, us and "everything else", some of which we surely don't know anything about. Our own current involvement and conditions, while important, may not reflect the other things to a "T". To not allow God to be more than what we understand is rather, hm, limiting.
I look at the time element because it's how we see existence, our awareness has a beginning and and end. It makes sense that within those constraints we could view a larger picture that runs before and after, but being grounded in a beginning and aware of our own end we could only understand somewhat that our portion of life, existence is a measurement of something much greater. The bible certainly seems to point to what that is, "eternity", a God who's already "here" at the "beginning" and Who would have no end. Currrent conditions tend to change, evolve, deteriorate, reform. That doesn't mean that God's nature is the same.
Sunesis, that's my own brand of Christianity, "Chaos Christianity". It's my label for man's Church. Membership is small. One per building!
I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure.—Socks
I think the whole point of free will is to make a decision for or against God. Every creature God ever made (including angels) have been given that choice. Jesus had to make a choice too (the temptations). Why? So that when God brings about His perfect universe all that are in it will have made a clear decision. That’s why it will be and can be final. God wants those who are in it to have made that choice, else He could just “raise up stones” to be His.
God does foreknow what those decisions will be. That’s well documented in previous posts. Here’s another example: Isaiah 44-45 writes about Cyrus who would be king of Persia 200 yrs. later. He would deliver God’s people from a situation that hadn’t happened yet. One of the ways God proves He is Who He says He is, is by the fact He does foreknow in such detail. As WW mentioned above, the fact God does foreknow is part of His trustworthiness. Otherwise, why should we believe most of what He says? O. T. history would have been quite different if when the prophets told the people of future consequences for not choosing Him would have been believed. One example is the Babylonian captivity.
Choosing God is believing what He says is true. God’s integrity was called into question in the garden of Eden. God told them if you do this, then this (future) will happen. If His foreknowledge is in doubt, then so is His integrity. They are intertwined and can’t be separated. To state it another way: to doubt His foreknowledge is to doubt His integrity.
Not picking on you Socks. Your post caused me to think this through even more deeply.
As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification
of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away
from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe.
That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years.
That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do
what was already happening- just a lot slower.
As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day,
decision by decision, right now.—WW
A good bit like chaff and wheat. There are interesting verses in the O.T. that compare our lives to the process of refining gold (by heating) and getting out the impurities. You’re right. That process takes place by decision.
There is a story someone told me about his three year old daughter. There was a baited mouse trap in the kitchen. She was headed toward it. He said,”Don’t touch that. That will hurt you if you do that.” She kept moving toward it, with her finger held out. He kept repeating himself. She touched it anyway and the trap shut on her finger. I would not have done this personally. I would have moved the trap, owing to the fact she was only three.
I mention this because in spite of the fact that God lays out black and white choices, He does get it that we don’t a lot of the time, and factors that in. Compared to Him we are less than three year olds. Multiple chances and multiple warnings. Another words, He works with us in such a way that whatever our decisions are, we truly did decide. Otherwise He wouldn’t truly be just.
...As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification
of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away
from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe.
That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years.
That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do
what was already happening- just a lot slower.
As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day,
decision by decision, right now.
Wow – WordWolf, that is some tremendous food for thought! Great post! I definitely see that – things that happen in life – catastrophes, problems, a minor crisis – they act as a catalyst – bringing someone to a turning point. Makes me think of Jesus' comments about some recent tragedies:
Luke 13:1-5 NKJV
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
Maybe it's similar to that weird little sobering thought that shoots through our minds once and awhile – like when we see some horrific event on the news [9/11, earthquakes, fatal car wreck, plane crash, etc.], "Am I ready to die?"
I think when you look at the whole picture, God has been telling us since Adam and Eve fell, there's a redeemer coming and a heavenly kingdom coming.
What did Christ preach - his main teachings? The Kingdom of God and its coming, parable after parable.
What did Paul preach? That we will someday be a new creation, fit to inhabit the coming kingdom.
What does Revelation teach? Here comes the Kingdom (after some judgment, of course).
So, I really do believe all men are "convicted" by the Holy Spirit, to choose to enter or not to.
There is a new heaven and earth coming, the invitation has been extended to mankind (see also Christ's parable of the wedding feast). Accept, or reject.
A-Spot, I'm not sure what you'd be picking on. I was trying to sound out what might be the reasoning behind some of the ex-Way teachings that I've heard teach that God doesn't in fact "know" what "we're going to do", IE, foreknowledge. I don't really know first hand what's being taught in those arenas these days but as I stated, I suspect/guess it might involve the idea of man's free will, as I've read that argument in other places.
That's not my own opinion though, based on a variety of sources. If you reread what I wrote you'll see it isn't a postulation of biblical statements for or against but rather a consideration on an aspect of the nature of God.
To my mind, questioning God's "foreknowledge", His ability to know the "future" and what anyone person might do or not do, isn't really a reasonable position considering who and what God is, or at the least appears to be.
The "future", what you or I might do or decide tomorrow or 10 years from now, deals with time. I don't think God functions in that environment the same way as we do. We may not know what we'll choose to do a year from now because we're not there yet. I suspect that God is already "there", and that our experience of life as a sequence of events is unique to the physical laws we function under.
Put another way, looking back on a life of say 78 years, everything that happened is knowable and all the decisions that were made are history.
You have all enhanced my appreciation of what God has already done and the statements he's already made over and over about how precious we are to him and the lengths to which he will go to preserve us.
I've learned some wonderful things in this thread this evening not only from WW but from a few others. And I can immediately use these things I come down here and read often but never post. Thanks for having me.
It's really simple to choose when you have context and understanding. The choice itself is "simple" but the follow-through for the long haul may not be so easy (if you know what I mean).That's why we have each other to help us and pray with and for us to see each new growth ring to maturity.
I thought it might be interesting to consider this topic in light of God’s ultimate goal: peace within His universe.
Peace, freedom and sin cannot co-exist. God created angels. Some of these used their freewill to sin. Then man came along and by way of the influence of the serpent sinned as well. The plan to acquire ultimate peace for all God had created was Jesus. Jesus not only redeemed man, He will destroy the devil and the angels who sinned in the future.
In that light, I can start to understand the penalty of death for sin. The only way to make it gone is destruction, which is ultimately what will happen. Jesus paid the price so all mankind would not be destroyed. Yet God doesn’t like death. He considers life precious. Confronted with wrong freewill decisions there is no alternative. At the same time He is unwilling to overstep freewill. The lack of freewill is slavery. So what does He do? He works within things to bring about His ultimate desire, including evil.
Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
I believe this last verse is the underlying principle. Don’t ask me to explain it right now. I can’t. I don’t know if I ever will. I don’t have foreknowledge, ha!
Thinking back WW’s post about the tares. God is doing this even with the angels. Not in the sense He is going to make more (as far as I know), but in the sense they both continue to exist until He is ready to complete His ultimate goal.
Clearly God’s foreknowledge goes all the way back to before He created angels.
I wanted to go back to this post again, because something else hit me as I reread it.
It's about Joseph.
I've taught much the same point as is here.
Here's a recap of the "Joseph incident", as I shall call it here...
I think it's Jacob who has all these sons. He had 2 sons from Rachel, the
wife he WANTED, and the rest from Leah, the wife he ended up with.
This helps explain why he was partial to Joseph and Benjamin, when you
read the accounts. (Rachel died in childbirth, giving birth to Benjamin.)
God gave Joseph a dream of the future, doubled, which showed his brothers
bowing down to him. When he TOLD THEM (why tell them?), they got envious,
and when their father designated him the heir (heir apparent), they decided to
kill him, then showed him mercy by selling him into slavery instead.
Joseph continues to serve God. After a number of years, and some
misadventures where Joseph was completely innocent and spent some years
in jail, God shows Pharaoh a dream he can't understand, and Joseph is
brought out to explain it fully. It warns of 7 years of great prosperity, to be
followed by 7 years of famine. Joseph advises Pharaoh to store 20% of their
plenty to cover the 7 famine years. Pharaoh puts Joseph in charge of his
kingdom, giving him power of attorney over everything except Pharaoh himself.
During 7 years of plenty, Joseph has 20% of the output placed in storage. During the
7 years of famine, they have more than enough food for themselves, and when
others want to trade for food, Joseph is able to sell them food. (I've heard it told
that THIS, SPECIFICALLY, is why Egypt had all that famous treasure. I believe
this is PARTIALLY true, and the rest is due to the length of the empire in history
and its reach during that time.) Joseph's dad sends Joseph's brothers to negotiate
with Egypt for food, and they open with bowing down before Pharaoh's administrator,
Joseph- as God showed Joseph long ago, which may be said to have STARTED this
whole ordeal.
Joseph plays a rough practical joke on his brothers-who of course don't recognize
him. (He uses a translator to keep from using his recognizable voice.) Eventually,
he admits he's their brother. THAT's when the verse comes up that's quoted
above.
"Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive."
Joseph never claims God wanted Joseph to be killed, sold into slavery, or put
in jail. Those are all the intentions and acts of others, all acting on their own
free wills. However, God took all their freewill actions, and incorporated them
into his long-term plans.
All of this meant Joseph invited the nation of Israel into Egypt so they had food
for the remaining famine years, which meant they survived, and prospered.
(Leading eventually to them being SO prosperous, that a later Pharaoh would
oppress them, leading Israel to cry to God for deliverance-after which God
raises up Moses, but we're not talking about that.)
Joseph correctly credited God with saving the nation of Israel by that, but never
charges God for the years of bad things he endured.
One other thought:
Abraham is referred to in the Bible as a friend of God. Yet not even he was considered righteous by God’s standards. Romans says God reckoned righteousness to him because of his believing. In a similar manner, righteousness is reckoned and given to us when we believe the gospel of Christ, thus putting us in a position to not be destroyed. It is an interesting way to give us something we didn’t have, could not get on our own. The result:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
So by choosing with our freewill to believe we get this. God worked out a way to overcome our sin problem without overstepping our freewill.
Interesting observation.
I wish some people would see that God's Omniscience and man's free will are not antithetical-
they work together because a God who IS that smart (being Omniscient and all)
The sped up part is interesting too. C.S. Lewis once wrote on miracles. What is a miracle but nature sped up? Water into wine, healing, etc., all things which do happen naturally, but slowly, yet the instantaneous miracles - nature sped up.
I like the centrifuge concept.
Yes, I agree, the whole purpose of God's plan is to get the creation back to the perfection it had.
With one will - God's - you had perfect harmony and perfection.
With two wills - Satan v. God - you have opposites, chaos and destruction of the universe and earth ensues.
With man, now you have billions of free will - chaos.
Our hope is Christ, someday there will be one harmonious will again, all will be in harmony.
All will want to worship God because they will have seen - both angelic creation and man, what happens when God's will is not followed. He has to let it play out.
I'll go a step further.
I have confidence towards God, that the perfection that is the result of all the events into the new
heaven and earth will be BETTER than the perfection seen long ago, way back when.
Isaiah 64:4. (KJV)
"4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him."
I wish some people would see that God's Omniscience and man's free will are not antithetical-
they work together because a God who IS that smart (being Omniscient and all)
worked it all out.
Good point, WordWolf – your post about Joseph made me think of a few passages I used to read to remind myself that God has everything worked out and to trust Him:
Genesis 50:20 NASB
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Psalm 31:13-15 NASB
13 For I have heard the slander of many,
Terror is on every side;
While they took counsel together against me,
They schemed to take away my life.
14 But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD,
I say, "You are my God."
15 My times are in Your hand;
Deliver me from the hand of my enemies and from those who persecute me.
Romans 8:28-30 NASB
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
And thinking about the whole Joseph story something by Jay Adams in More Than Redemption [pages 124-126] came to mind – Adams talks about how God determines to carry out the decrees of His will not by violating, but by using human personality to bring it to pass.
Sometimes I'll have the erroneous idea of God being aloof – in some far off region of space – and picture Him on occasion "interfering" with human history by an overt-act-lightning bolt-Hollywood-special-effects kind of a thing. But it's really a trip to consider God as being one who is both in time and outside time – who may deem it appropriate to have a certain person's decision or act be a means to His end - that puts Him as working within human history. So, it's more along the lines of covert ops .
I think you're right on God's omniscience and man's freewill working together. C.H. Spurgeon called God's sovereignty and man's responsibility "friends" – not "enemies." I've been going through some old notes of mine on the sovereignty of God – I think my notes on "antinomy" are from Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer – thought I would post them here as I think they're relevant to our discussion:
Antinomy is defined as a contradiction between conclusions, which seem equally logical, reasonable, or necessary. Antinomy exists when a pair of principles stands side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. In physics, there is evidence to show light consists of waves and there is evidence to show that it consists of particles.
Antinomy is not the same as a paradox – which unites two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it is asserted. Many Christian truths can be expressed as paradoxes: "service is perfect freedom"…"having nothing yet possessing all things." The point of a paradox, however, is that what creates the paradox is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real; also a paradox is always comprehensible. A speaker or writer casts his ideas into paradoxes in order to make them memorable and provoke thought about them.
Antinomy is not comprehensible; it is not a figure of speech, but an observed relation between two statements of fact. The particular antinomy with divine sovereignty and human responsibility is in seeing side by side – God as King who rules supreme and God as Judge who holds every man responsible for the choices he makes.
God as Judge who holds every man responsible for the choices he makes.
and from my understanding of Scripture this is truth.
And - - when we look at this, also from his reading:
how God determines to carry out the decrees of His will not by violating, [b]but by using[/b] human personality to bring it to pass.
The term "using" bothers me; I guess it's old twit terms that recall possession!
However: I remember being taught back in those days by a godly man whose motives I had no reason to suspect, that when we were born again, God created a new spirit in each of us when we were born again. It's not such a far stretch to understand that...since he knows our very frame, and has the hairs on our heads enumerated, he could tailor-make spirit which would enhance and be operated by our own unique gifts and strengths that we already had.
So - in using the Joseph incident as an example, but pushed up into our time frame where we believers do have our own unique spirits, how wonderful is it that God is able to inspire each of us to select those acts independently of one another which could totally turn around some evil done to one of us, so that many many were blessed AND his name was glorified in the doing of it.
1. opposition between one law, principle, rule, etc., and another.
2. Philosophy. a contradiction between two statements, both apparently obtained by correct reasoning.
krys: your use of "inspire" is interesting.... you know, God being "at work within us, both to WILL and to do." This is apparently how we "work out" our wholeness. There's a parellel, I believe to obedience, and to lordship. The inspiration of God, the filling of this earthen vessel who is willing to receive and who responds accordingly is the "friendship" between predestination and free will that TBone noted (Spurgeon's word). Good stuff
T-Bone, very interesting stuff on antinomy. I'll have to read the J.I. Packer book.
I haven't been following this thread much because to me it seemed like almost a no-brainer, of course God knows everything, he knows the end from the beginning and everything in between. But there's some great depth in here to ponder, thanks everyone.
<snip>...The term "using" bothers me; I guess it's old twit terms that recall possession!...<snip>
I look at God "using" as taking advantage of all the factors involved in a situation. Like a master strategist would in forming a plan of action. Take for instance the problem of sin. How does God, as supreme ruler, not overstep man's freewill in order to rescue man from sin? Is there a way to get the key factors to work together somehow?
Let's think of sin as a viral epidemic. Then we could look at salvation's plan as God designing a unique antidote for sin by incorporating sin, freewill and the Lamb of God. When these three "mix" together – we have the triggering mechanism to not only create the antidote but also facilitate administering the antidote.
God's sovereignty
Provides the sinless Lamb for sacrifice - the active ingredient that actually renders sin impotent.
Sin
The destructive virus. It was the sinful desires that motivated the key players in the gospels to crucify Jesus...Acknowledging the symptoms of sin - motivates one to look to the cross.
Freewill
The power of self-determination – the catalyst. Its role in "creating" the antidote: the key players in the gospels – of their own volition – chose the bad thing to do - crucify Jesus…Now when it comes to "administering" the antidote – it is available to anyone who acknowledges the infection of sin, and through their own volition – chooses the good - and accepts the antidote, the sinless Lamb of God.
I don't know if the above is the best analogy – just thinking out loud - but that's how I understand passages that allude to both the sovereignty of God and man's freewill:
Luke 22:20-23 NIV
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
T-bone, maybe others needed that explanation, but for me, your reputation preceeded your explanation. Generally, I am wary and it seems I'm almost always looking for twit-like lies etc to make sure I don't swallow another piece of garbage. I've found that it seems to have taken me a very long time until I trusted my own self to tell the difference between the 2.
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
========
I've heard I Corinthians 2:8 taught where someone suggested that one reason for God to make all
those promises and issue prophecies of the coming redeemer was so that the princes of
this world would look for him, and do their best to kill him-
and in doing so, would guarantee his victory.
I haven't decided if I agree with that.
However, IF it is true, it's an interesting example of freewill serving God's purpose.
(Even if it isn't, the phrasing makes a sufficient argument by itself.)
After all, God didn't do anything to MAKE them try to kill Jesus-they decided they
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
I was thinking several posts ago this may be the underlying principle for how God deals with the free will of others to exercise evil and good to bring about His own will. Not just in this record…In a lot of ways, the record of Joseph parallels the story of Jesus.
Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
I am thinking that is how He deals with Satan as well. Ultimately, it was Satan that wanted Jesus dead. The resurrection of Jesus delivered mankind and will bring about the eventual demise of Satan and his cohorts.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power (exousia) of death, that is, the devil;
Jesus gave up his own life and submitted to being killed. He prayed not to have to do it. God still willed it so He could bring to pass great victory. God knew ahead of time when He promised the Redeemer that Satan would want to kill him. He used that knowledge to turn the tables on him. Jesus still had a choice. He also knew ahead of time what God had in mind.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
I’ve been thinking about this in light of the book of Job. Satan is allowed freewill with limitations. He worked with people to afflict Job. The error of Job’s friends was to think Job brought this on himself via sin. Even Job didn’t understand.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
In all three records, evil was thought against someone who didn’t deserve it, but the end result was greater good for the person, and in two of them great good for others. That’s where God’s justice comes into play. God’s providential and moral will at work.
To be truthful, I think WW’s post on the tares goes a long way to make this comprehensible. That is, God allows evil and good to co-exist until the fullness of time. In the meantime, He continues to work the counsel of His own will in spite of the situation via the principle of Gen. 50:20, which allows Him to work His own will without overstepping freewill of anyone. In the doing of it, He doesn’t compromise His sovereignty or righteousness. These two things are comprehensible in light of the ultimate goal of a perfect universe.
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
========
I've heard I Corinthians 2:8 taught where someone suggested that one reason for God to make all
those promises and issue prophecies of the coming redeemer was so that the princes of
this world would look for him, and do their best to kill him-
and in doing so, would guarantee his victory.
I haven't decided if I agree with that.
However, IF it is true, it's an interesting example of freewill serving God's purpose.
(Even if it isn't, the phrasing makes a sufficient argument by itself.)
After all, God didn't do anything to MAKE them try to kill Jesus-they decided they
wanted to do that all on their own.
However, their decision served God's purposes.
The idea may have some merit. Your post got me thinking of how Jesus was received in His day. Yes, there were "shrouded" prophecies in the Old Testament that spoke of His suffering and death – but to the eyes of the gospel-period folks perhaps the prophecies of the Messiah's kingship and glory eclipsed all of those.
I'm thinking of where the crowd wanted to take Him by force and make Him king and of His post-resurrection dialog with the two despondent disciples on the road to Emmaus – explaining to them the WHOLE picture of Him having to suffer first and then enter into glory… Perhaps it was something sorely overlooked by the demonic forces as well – or inconceivable how this all worked together. It's intriguing to think of God as setting up a sting operation – banking on the Devil and his hosts being unable to resist targeting a perceived weak point in God's plan – a mere mortal for a Messiah.
Yep. Pretty fantastic all things considered. God asked ONE person, Abraham to believe to have progeny from which the Christ line would come. Before that Noah believed, else all mankind would have been destroyed right then. The magi were taught hundreds of years before Christ to recognize the celestial signs and thus bring the money Mary and Joseph needed (as WW pointed out). So many things and events were involved and all leading up to the final victory. And so often hinging on one or few persons…And most of the time most people turning their backs on God. Did mankind deserve it? Not on the whole.
I think of Cyrus King of Persia. Isaiah via revelation from God wrote about him 200 years before he was born. Cyrus would later read it and deliver Israel.
Jonah swallowed by the big fish for three days and nights. He didn’t want to confront Ninveh (gentiles) for fear they would in the future attack Israel.
Then God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “It is right for me to be angry, even to death!” But the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?”
This is one of my favorite verses: “persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?” To me that’s really funny…dry humor.
Pretty fantastic. How many marvelous things did God do over the centuries that were never recorded? I would expect a lot.
Forgive me for appearing to nitpik, but the Lord didn't ask Abraham a thing, and he certainly didn't 'ask him to believe'. He merely informed Abraham of what would be happening. When Abraham believed the promise, it was counted to him for righteousness.
God did command (though I suppose Abe could have refused) Abraham to sacrifice that very son of promise, but that's a whole 'nuther lesson I guess.
Evan: if that’s all you found wrong with my posts, then I’ll take that as a compliment.
Technically, yes of course, you are correct. From my pov though, when something is put in front of us to believe or disbelieve it is a request and not a demand from the stand point of freewill. I do see your point however, and I will try to be more careful with my wording in this regard in the future.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
35
22
37
44
Popular Days
Sep 11
26
Sep 4
24
Sep 12
19
Sep 6
16
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 35 posts
T-Bone 22 posts
another spot 37 posts
Larry N Moore 44 posts
Popular Days
Sep 11 2007
26 posts
Sep 4 2007
24 posts
Sep 12 2007
19 posts
Sep 6 2007
16 posts
Popular Posts
WordWolf
Actually, I've posted some things, and others have posted some things. In some things, we've agreed, and in some we have not. We call that "discussion." Personally, I'd prefer more posting at the
WordWolf
Oh, and for the benefit of those (or one) who don't see the benefit of it, I'm going to ask a slightly self-serving question. Are others of you appreciating my posts on this thread to date? The on
WordWolf
It's come up that if God's perception is limited strictly to the present- as some have suggested- then all He can offer is a general hope that everything turns out all right. (No, it's not been pos
socks
That's a stretch alright Dan!
I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure.
But those aren't the only factors to consider, and not the primary factors necessarily. I see at least three elements - God, us and "everything else", some of which we surely don't know anything about. Our own current involvement and conditions, while important, may not reflect the other things to a "T". To not allow God to be more than what we understand is rather, hm, limiting.
I look at the time element because it's how we see existence, our awareness has a beginning and and end. It makes sense that within those constraints we could view a larger picture that runs before and after, but being grounded in a beginning and aware of our own end we could only understand somewhat that our portion of life, existence is a measurement of something much greater. The bible certainly seems to point to what that is, "eternity", a God who's already "here" at the "beginning" and Who would have no end. Currrent conditions tend to change, evolve, deteriorate, reform. That doesn't mean that God's nature is the same.
Sunesis, that's my own brand of Christianity, "Chaos Christianity". It's my label for man's Church.
Membership is small. One per building!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure.—Socks
I think the whole point of free will is to make a decision for or against God. Every creature God ever made (including angels) have been given that choice. Jesus had to make a choice too (the temptations). Why? So that when God brings about His perfect universe all that are in it will have made a clear decision. That’s why it will be and can be final. God wants those who are in it to have made that choice, else He could just “raise up stones” to be His.
God does foreknow what those decisions will be. That’s well documented in previous posts. Here’s another example: Isaiah 44-45 writes about Cyrus who would be king of Persia 200 yrs. later. He would deliver God’s people from a situation that hadn’t happened yet. One of the ways God proves He is Who He says He is, is by the fact He does foreknow in such detail. As WW mentioned above, the fact God does foreknow is part of His trustworthiness. Otherwise, why should we believe most of what He says? O. T. history would have been quite different if when the prophets told the people of future consequences for not choosing Him would have been believed. One example is the Babylonian captivity.
Choosing God is believing what He says is true. God’s integrity was called into question in the garden of Eden. God told them if you do this, then this (future) will happen. If His foreknowledge is in doubt, then so is His integrity. They are intertwined and can’t be separated. To state it another way: to doubt His foreknowledge is to doubt His integrity.
Not picking on you Socks. Your post caused me to think this through even more deeply.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification
of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away
from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe.
That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years.
That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do
what was already happening- just a lot slower.
As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day,
decision by decision, right now.—WW
A good bit like chaff and wheat. There are interesting verses in the O.T. that compare our lives to the process of refining gold (by heating) and getting out the impurities. You’re right. That process takes place by decision.
There is a story someone told me about his three year old daughter. There was a baited mouse trap in the kitchen. She was headed toward it. He said,”Don’t touch that. That will hurt you if you do that.” She kept moving toward it, with her finger held out. He kept repeating himself. She touched it anyway and the trap shut on her finger. I would not have done this personally. I would have moved the trap, owing to the fact she was only three.
I mention this because in spite of the fact that God lays out black and white choices, He does get it that we don’t a lot of the time, and factors that in. Compared to Him we are less than three year olds. Multiple chances and multiple warnings. Another words, He works with us in such a way that whatever our decisions are, we truly did decide. Otherwise He wouldn’t truly be just.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Wow – WordWolf, that is some tremendous food for thought! Great post! I definitely see that – things that happen in life – catastrophes, problems, a minor crisis – they act as a catalyst – bringing someone to a turning point. Makes me think of Jesus' comments about some recent tragedies:
Luke 13:1-5 NKJV
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
Maybe it's similar to that weird little sobering thought that shoots through our minds once and awhile – like when we see some horrific event on the news [9/11, earthquakes, fatal car wreck, plane crash, etc.], "Am I ready to die?"
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
You guys are freakin' me out. You're getting very close to what God knows!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I think when you look at the whole picture, God has been telling us since Adam and Eve fell, there's a redeemer coming and a heavenly kingdom coming.
What did Christ preach - his main teachings? The Kingdom of God and its coming, parable after parable.
What did Paul preach? That we will someday be a new creation, fit to inhabit the coming kingdom.
What does Revelation teach? Here comes the Kingdom (after some judgment, of course).
So, I really do believe all men are "convicted" by the Holy Spirit, to choose to enter or not to.
There is a new heaven and earth coming, the invitation has been extended to mankind (see also Christ's parable of the wedding feast). Accept, or reject.
Its that simple.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
A-Spot, I'm not sure what you'd be picking on. I was trying to sound out what might be the reasoning behind some of the ex-Way teachings that I've heard teach that God doesn't in fact "know" what "we're going to do", IE, foreknowledge. I don't really know first hand what's being taught in those arenas these days but as I stated, I suspect/guess it might involve the idea of man's free will, as I've read that argument in other places.
That's not my own opinion though, based on a variety of sources. If you reread what I wrote you'll see it isn't a postulation of biblical statements for or against but rather a consideration on an aspect of the nature of God.
To my mind, questioning God's "foreknowledge", His ability to know the "future" and what anyone person might do or not do, isn't really a reasonable position considering who and what God is, or at the least appears to be.
The "future", what you or I might do or decide tomorrow or 10 years from now, deals with time. I don't think God functions in that environment the same way as we do. We may not know what we'll choose to do a year from now because we're not there yet. I suspect that God is already "there", and that our experience of life as a sequence of events is unique to the physical laws we function under.
Put another way, looking back on a life of say 78 years, everything that happened is knowable and all the decisions that were made are history.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
krys
You have all enhanced my appreciation of what God has already done and the statements he's already made over and over about how precious we are to him and the lengths to which he will go to preserve us.
I've learned some wonderful things in this thread this evening not only from WW but from a few others. And I can immediately use these things I come down here and read often but never post. Thanks for having me.
It's really simple to choose when you have context and understanding. The choice itself is "simple" but the follow-through for the long haul may not be so easy (if you know what I mean).That's why we have each other to help us and pray with and for us to see each new growth ring to maturity.
Thanks WordWolf for starting this thread!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I wanted to go back to this post again, because something else hit me as I reread it.
It's about Joseph.
I've taught much the same point as is here.
Here's a recap of the "Joseph incident", as I shall call it here...
I think it's Jacob who has all these sons. He had 2 sons from Rachel, the
wife he WANTED, and the rest from Leah, the wife he ended up with.
This helps explain why he was partial to Joseph and Benjamin, when you
read the accounts. (Rachel died in childbirth, giving birth to Benjamin.)
God gave Joseph a dream of the future, doubled, which showed his brothers
bowing down to him. When he TOLD THEM (why tell them?), they got envious,
and when their father designated him the heir (heir apparent), they decided to
kill him, then showed him mercy by selling him into slavery instead.
Joseph continues to serve God. After a number of years, and some
misadventures where Joseph was completely innocent and spent some years
in jail, God shows Pharaoh a dream he can't understand, and Joseph is
brought out to explain it fully. It warns of 7 years of great prosperity, to be
followed by 7 years of famine. Joseph advises Pharaoh to store 20% of their
plenty to cover the 7 famine years. Pharaoh puts Joseph in charge of his
kingdom, giving him power of attorney over everything except Pharaoh himself.
During 7 years of plenty, Joseph has 20% of the output placed in storage. During the
7 years of famine, they have more than enough food for themselves, and when
others want to trade for food, Joseph is able to sell them food. (I've heard it told
that THIS, SPECIFICALLY, is why Egypt had all that famous treasure. I believe
this is PARTIALLY true, and the rest is due to the length of the empire in history
and its reach during that time.) Joseph's dad sends Joseph's brothers to negotiate
with Egypt for food, and they open with bowing down before Pharaoh's administrator,
Joseph- as God showed Joseph long ago, which may be said to have STARTED this
whole ordeal.
Joseph plays a rough practical joke on his brothers-who of course don't recognize
him. (He uses a translator to keep from using his recognizable voice.) Eventually,
he admits he's their brother. THAT's when the verse comes up that's quoted
above.
"Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive."
Joseph never claims God wanted Joseph to be killed, sold into slavery, or put
in jail. Those are all the intentions and acts of others, all acting on their own
free wills. However, God took all their freewill actions, and incorporated them
into his long-term plans.
All of this meant Joseph invited the nation of Israel into Egypt so they had food
for the remaining famine years, which meant they survived, and prospered.
(Leading eventually to them being SO prosperous, that a later Pharaoh would
oppress them, leading Israel to cry to God for deliverance-after which God
raises up Moses, but we're not talking about that.)
Joseph correctly credited God with saving the nation of Israel by that, but never
charges God for the years of bad things he endured.
Interesting observation.
I wish some people would see that God's Omniscience and man's free will are not antithetical-
they work together because a God who IS that smart (being Omniscient and all)
worked it all out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'll go a step further.
I have confidence towards God, that the perfection that is the result of all the events into the new
heaven and earth will be BETTER than the perfection seen long ago, way back when.
Isaiah 64:4. (KJV)
"4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him."
God's good like that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Word Wolf
This is GREAT stuff!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Good point, WordWolf – your post about Joseph made me think of a few passages I used to read to remind myself that God has everything worked out and to trust Him:
Genesis 50:20 NASB
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Psalm 31:13-15 NASB
13 For I have heard the slander of many,
Terror is on every side;
While they took counsel together against me,
They schemed to take away my life.
14 But as for me, I trust in You, O LORD,
I say, "You are my God."
15 My times are in Your hand;
Deliver me from the hand of my enemies and from those who persecute me.
Romans 8:28-30 NASB
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
And thinking about the whole Joseph story something by Jay Adams in More Than Redemption [pages 124-126] came to mind – Adams talks about how God determines to carry out the decrees of His will not by violating, but by using human personality to bring it to pass.
Sometimes I'll have the erroneous idea of God being aloof – in some far off region of space – and picture Him on occasion "interfering" with human history by an overt-act-lightning bolt-Hollywood-special-effects kind of a thing. But it's really a trip to consider God as being one who is both in time and outside time – who may deem it appropriate to have a certain person's decision or act be a means to His end - that puts Him as working within human history. So, it's more along the lines of covert ops
.
I think you're right on God's omniscience and man's freewill working together. C.H. Spurgeon called God's sovereignty and man's responsibility "friends" – not "enemies." I've been going through some old notes of mine on the sovereignty of God – I think my notes on "antinomy" are from Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer – thought I would post them here as I think they're relevant to our discussion:
Antinomy is defined as a contradiction between conclusions, which seem equally logical, reasonable, or necessary. Antinomy exists when a pair of principles stands side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. In physics, there is evidence to show light consists of waves and there is evidence to show that it consists of particles.
Antinomy is not the same as a paradox – which unites two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it is asserted. Many Christian truths can be expressed as paradoxes: "service is perfect freedom"…"having nothing yet possessing all things." The point of a paradox, however, is that what creates the paradox is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real; also a paradox is always comprehensible. A speaker or writer casts his ideas into paradoxes in order to make them memorable and provoke thought about them.
Antinomy is not comprehensible; it is not a figure of speech, but an observed relation between two statements of fact. The particular antinomy with divine sovereignty and human responsibility is in seeing side by side – God as King who rules supreme and God as Judge who holds every man responsible for the choices he makes.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
krys
t-bone posted from his reading:
and from my understanding of Scripture this is truth.
And - - when we look at this, also from his reading:
The term "using" bothers me; I guess it's old twit terms that recall possession!
However: I remember being taught back in those days by a godly man whose motives I had no reason to suspect, that when we were born again, God created a new spirit in each of us when we were born again. It's not such a far stretch to understand that...since he knows our very frame, and has the hairs on our heads enumerated, he could tailor-make spirit which would enhance and be operated by our own unique gifts and strengths that we already had.
So - in using the Joseph incident as an example, but pushed up into our time frame where we believers do have our own unique spirits, how wonderful is it that God is able to inspire each of us to select those acts independently of one another which could totally turn around some evil done to one of us, so that many many were blessed AND his name was glorified in the doing of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
from dictionary.com:
krys: your use of "inspire" is interesting.... you know, God being "at work within us, both to WILL and to do." This is apparently how we "work out" our wholeness. There's a parellel, I believe to obedience, and to lordship. The inspiration of God, the filling of this earthen vessel who is willing to receive and who responds accordingly is the "friendship" between predestination and free will that TBone noted (Spurgeon's word). Good stuff
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
Is that a new spin-off? (JK)
T-Bone, very interesting stuff on antinomy. I'll have to read the J.I. Packer book.
I haven't been following this thread much because to me it seemed like almost a no-brainer, of course God knows everything, he knows the end from the beginning and everything in between. But there's some great depth in here to ponder, thanks everyone.
Edited by wrdsandwrksLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I look at God "using" as taking advantage of all the factors involved in a situation. Like a master strategist would in forming a plan of action. Take for instance the problem of sin. How does God, as supreme ruler, not overstep man's freewill in order to rescue man from sin? Is there a way to get the key factors to work together somehow?
Let's think of sin as a viral epidemic. Then we could look at salvation's plan as God designing a unique antidote for sin by incorporating sin, freewill and the Lamb of God. When these three "mix" together – we have the triggering mechanism to not only create the antidote but also facilitate administering the antidote.
God's sovereignty
Provides the sinless Lamb for sacrifice - the active ingredient that actually renders sin impotent.
Sin
The destructive virus. It was the sinful desires that motivated the key players in the gospels to crucify Jesus...Acknowledging the symptoms of sin - motivates one to look to the cross.
Freewill
The power of self-determination – the catalyst. Its role in "creating" the antidote: the key players in the gospels – of their own volition – chose the bad thing to do - crucify Jesus…Now when it comes to "administering" the antidote – it is available to anyone who acknowledges the infection of sin, and through their own volition – chooses the good - and accepts the antidote, the sinless Lamb of God.
I don't know if the above is the best analogy – just thinking out loud - but that's how I understand passages that allude to both the sovereignty of God and man's freewill:
Luke 22:20-23 NIV
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22 The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23 They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
krys
T-bone, maybe others needed that explanation, but for me, your reputation preceeded your explanation. Generally, I am wary and it seems I'm almost always looking for twit-like lies etc to make sure I don't swallow another piece of garbage. I've found that it seems to have taken me a very long time until I trusted my own self to tell the difference between the 2.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
1 Corinthians 2:7-9 (King James Version)
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
========
I've heard I Corinthians 2:8 taught where someone suggested that one reason for God to make all
those promises and issue prophecies of the coming redeemer was so that the princes of
this world would look for him, and do their best to kill him-
and in doing so, would guarantee his victory.
I haven't decided if I agree with that.
However, IF it is true, it's an interesting example of freewill serving God's purpose.
(Even if it isn't, the phrasing makes a sufficient argument by itself.)
After all, God didn't do anything to MAKE them try to kill Jesus-they decided they
wanted to do that all on their own.
However, their decision served God's purposes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
I thought about that too, WW, ever since I read:
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
I was thinking several posts ago this may be the underlying principle for how God deals with the free will of others to exercise evil and good to bring about His own will. Not just in this record…In a lot of ways, the record of Joseph parallels the story of Jesus.
Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
I am thinking that is how He deals with Satan as well. Ultimately, it was Satan that wanted Jesus dead. The resurrection of Jesus delivered mankind and will bring about the eventual demise of Satan and his cohorts.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power (exousia) of death, that is, the devil;
Jesus gave up his own life and submitted to being killed. He prayed not to have to do it. God still willed it so He could bring to pass great victory. God knew ahead of time when He promised the Redeemer that Satan would want to kill him. He used that knowledge to turn the tables on him. Jesus still had a choice. He also knew ahead of time what God had in mind.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
I’ve been thinking about this in light of the book of Job. Satan is allowed freewill with limitations. He worked with people to afflict Job. The error of Job’s friends was to think Job brought this on himself via sin. Even Job didn’t understand.
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
In all three records, evil was thought against someone who didn’t deserve it, but the end result was greater good for the person, and in two of them great good for others. That’s where God’s justice comes into play. God’s providential and moral will at work.
To be truthful, I think WW’s post on the tares goes a long way to make this comprehensible. That is, God allows evil and good to co-exist until the fullness of time. In the meantime, He continues to work the counsel of His own will in spite of the situation via the principle of Gen. 50:20, which allows Him to work His own will without overstepping freewill of anyone. In the doing of it, He doesn’t compromise His sovereignty or righteousness. These two things are comprehensible in light of the ultimate goal of a perfect universe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
The idea may have some merit. Your post got me thinking of how Jesus was received in His day. Yes, there were "shrouded" prophecies in the Old Testament that spoke of His suffering and death – but to the eyes of the gospel-period folks perhaps the prophecies of the Messiah's kingship and glory eclipsed all of those.
I'm thinking of where the crowd wanted to take Him by force and make Him king and of His post-resurrection dialog with the two despondent disciples on the road to Emmaus – explaining to them the WHOLE picture of Him having to suffer first and then enter into glory… Perhaps it was something sorely overlooked by the demonic forces as well – or inconceivable how this all worked together. It's intriguing to think of God as setting up a sting operation – banking on the Devil and his hosts being unable to resist targeting a perceived weak point in God's plan – a mere mortal for a Messiah.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Yep. Pretty fantastic all things considered. God asked ONE person, Abraham to believe to have progeny from which the Christ line would come. Before that Noah believed, else all mankind would have been destroyed right then. The magi were taught hundreds of years before Christ to recognize the celestial signs and thus bring the money Mary and Joseph needed (as WW pointed out). So many things and events were involved and all leading up to the final victory. And so often hinging on one or few persons…And most of the time most people turning their backs on God. Did mankind deserve it? Not on the whole.
I think of Cyrus King of Persia. Isaiah via revelation from God wrote about him 200 years before he was born. Cyrus would later read it and deliver Israel.
Jonah swallowed by the big fish for three days and nights. He didn’t want to confront Ninveh (gentiles) for fear they would in the future attack Israel.
Then God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “It is right for me to be angry, even to death!” But the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?”
This is one of my favorite verses: “persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?” To me that’s really funny…dry humor.
Pretty fantastic. How many marvelous things did God do over the centuries that were never recorded? I would expect a lot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Forgive me for appearing to nitpik, but the Lord didn't ask Abraham a thing, and he certainly didn't 'ask him to believe'. He merely informed Abraham of what would be happening. When Abraham believed the promise, it was counted to him for righteousness.
God did command (though I suppose Abe could have refused) Abraham to sacrifice that very son of promise, but that's a whole 'nuther lesson I guess.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Evan: if that’s all you found wrong with my posts, then I’ll take that as a compliment.
Technically, yes of course, you are correct. From my pov though, when something is put in front of us to believe or disbelieve it is a request and not a demand from the stand point of freewill. I do see your point however, and I will try to be more careful with my wording in this regard in the future.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.