(ie: "This could happen to YOU if you get out of line!")
If mind control were being employed, why resort to set a precedent or ever throw anyone out? They'd just use physical and psychological techniques to supplant the individual's freedom of will in favor of their own. At that point, nobody would want or need to leave or be physically removed, for they'd already be subjugated to the groups mind control and brainwashing techniques and one's will completely subjugated ... and they'd be made to love it!
If mind control were being employed, why resort to set a precedent or ever throw anyone out?
Because, Oldies, that's a part of the process.
It makes you feel that the situation is hopeless unless you do as you are told.
That's why you had to be very cautious about who you shared your concerns and doubts about the program with.
If you were found out, you could be the next example of what happens to people who question authority.
And at that point, you weren't totally sure your concerns were valid or widespread.
Regarding the aspect of physical restraint:
Suppose you are in an isolated rural setting, hundreds or thousands of miles from home, without a car or phone or money to travel. What are you going to do, stumble off into the rural darkness at 3am?
Sure, you could walk out the door. Where would you go if you did?
What would you do?, go home and tell tell all the locals back home what a failure you turned out to be?
Some people faced that very question when they were ousted.
We were not allowed to talk about them or ask questions.
Doing so meant that you could be "next".
That's using psychological methods to exert physical restraint.
Absolutely Waysider. Throw in...don`t do what so and so did or you TOO will become m&a worthless...salt that has lost it`s savor...worthless....fit only to be cast to the streets and trodden under the feet of the beast.... If you do thus, you will die spiritually....If you talk to this m&a person you too might become possessed....you might just as well kill yourself if you leave the ministry and get possessed because you will lose all of your rewards at the bema....
Obey leadership and see a miracle or look at 5 senses and sink like peter did.....don`t let your thoughts trick you into considering like eve did....
Damned right it is mind control...you do as we say or you will die :(
I don't think letting someone go is mind control or part of a mind control process; its just part of life.
If I'm at work and someone is let go because of bad performance, bad morale, bad breath, etc. or whatever, is the employer using mind control techniques on the others? I don't think so.
When you warn someone "if you do this, this will happen", is that mind control? I don't think so.
Even someone who has done something out of fear motivation still has the will to choose other avenues at any time. Victim mentality wants us to think otherwise.
I don't think letting someone go is mind control or part of a mind control process; its just part of life.
If I'm at work and someone is let go because of bad performance, bad morale, bad breath, etc. or whatever, is the employer using mind control techniques on the others? I don't think so.
When you warn someone "if you do this, this will happen", is that mind control? I don't think so.
Even someone who has done something out of fear motivation still has the will to choose other avenues at any time. Victim mentality wants us to think otherwise.
Now you see. Oldies
I tried to answer your question about mind control in a perfectly civil manner.
Still, you insist that I am claiming victim mentality.
I never, even once , said that I considered myself a victim.
Comparing a person's dismissal from a job with what happened in the Fellow Laborers program is about as silly as it can get.
No one counseled us and said "this is what we expect and here are the consequences if you fail."
Most of the times we had no idea what the person was accused of.
It was not explained to us and we were forbidden to discuss it.
One time(and there were many) we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night, ordered to drive to limb HQ within a time frame that was physically impossible to meet and ordered to sit in total silence and darkness for what seemed to be an eternity.
When the meeting started, we were castigated for tardiness and told that we, the Fellow Laborers , were the reason that the ultimate goal of Word Over The World was in jeopardy.
You see, it was told to us that our performance was a total disgrace to "God and His Word" and since we were in the "birthplace" of the ministry, we were dragging the whole ministry down"spiritually".
We had no idea what we could have possibly done.
There was no question and answer session.
We were forbidden to discuss it.
We were forbidden to speak during the meeting
The program was to be terminated when the sun came up.
The next morning, we all met one last time at our 5 am meeting and were informed that we were being given one more chance but we would have to follow orders to a tee without question or else.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?
Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?
No I don't view it that way. I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up. Instead of looking at it like a weakling getting victimized, take it as a challenge to do bigger and better things. That was the attitude of mine in the corps despite all the wacky stuff we did there too.
What I meant was that the mind control, behavior control and abusive treatments she describes are quickly discredited as exaggerated or false testimony. Then it is implied that her testimony is simply an example of falsely viewing oneself as a "victim" when in reality the person had agreed to this treatment in advance and was perfectly free to walk away from the situation at any time. (Or at least that's how the poster perceived it.)
Furthermore, there was a verbal "strong arm" effort to re-institute the *lockbox* by not talking about these things.
I suppose the same arguments could be made for any woman who finds herself in an abusive domestic situation, not just members of The Way.
"Why don't they just walk out the front door and walk away?"
Life is just not that clear cut and simple.
Then, the bullying begins; suggesting that the person who has been violated is actually the one at fault.
I hope that clarifies what I meant when I indicated I felt there was a parallel similarity.
If mind control were being employed, why resort to set a precedent or ever throw anyone out? They'd just use physical and psychological techniques to supplant the individual's freedom of will in favor of their own. At that point, nobody would want or need to leave or be physically removed, for they'd already be subjugated to the groups mind control and brainwashing techniques and one's will completely subjugated ... and they'd be made to love it!
Hiya OM- It is clear to my by this post alone that you do not truly understand the concept let alone the reality of mind control (or your are playing stupid really well).
You also said this:
Even someone who has done something out of fear motivation still has the will to choose other avenues at any time. Victim mentality wants us to think otherwise.
There are several issues that beg to be addressed in this line but I'm just going to note that you use those two words "victim mentality" like a catch all phrase in many disagreements. And given your description of a "victim" I submit that if say...Rascal has a victim mentality then you have a abusive mentality. You consistantly give the abuser the "right" to abuse and shift the blame to the "victim". Much in the same manner as the numerous dirt bags that I have had the pleasure of incarcerating after they have beaten their wives. They almost always tell me that "they could have left". To which I respond, "and leave their children?" The beligerant dirt bag would invariably respond with, "Their my kids too, she know's I'll take care of 'em" and then of course there is the inevitable "she shouldnt have _______ and I wouldnt have beat her!"
Just an observation from one who has met many that parrot your words.
A huge thank you for sending out e-mail notifying me (and others, I'm sure) that this interview is here. I just finished listening, and I'm excited to hear the next installment. After this post, I'm heading over to Amazon to check out Kristen Skedgell's book.
Lots of information discussed and I'll need to listen to it again to process everything.
I chuckled at Pawtucket's first impression of VPW. Maybe that old teaching about first thought is correct after all.
Thanks again. This interview, and the book, are very important, and need to be heard.
I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up. Instead of looking at it like a weakling getting victimized, take it as a challenge to do bigger and better things.
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oldiesman
If mind control were being employed, why resort to set a precedent or ever throw anyone out? They'd just use physical and psychological techniques to supplant the individual's freedom of will in favor of their own. At that point, nobody would want or need to leave or be physically removed, for they'd already be subjugated to the groups mind control and brainwashing techniques and one's will completely subjugated ... and they'd be made to love it!
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waysider
Because, Oldies, that's a part of the process.
It makes you feel that the situation is hopeless unless you do as you are told.
That's why you had to be very cautious about who you shared your concerns and doubts about the program with.
If you were found out, you could be the next example of what happens to people who question authority.
And at that point, you weren't totally sure your concerns were valid or widespread.
Regarding the aspect of physical restraint:
Suppose you are in an isolated rural setting, hundreds or thousands of miles from home, without a car or phone or money to travel. What are you going to do, stumble off into the rural darkness at 3am?
Sure, you could walk out the door. Where would you go if you did?
What would you do?, go home and tell tell all the locals back home what a failure you turned out to be?
Some people faced that very question when they were ousted.
We were not allowed to talk about them or ask questions.
Doing so meant that you could be "next".
That's using psychological methods to exert physical restraint.
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rascal
Absolutely Waysider. Throw in...don`t do what so and so did or you TOO will become m&a worthless...salt that has lost it`s savor...worthless....fit only to be cast to the streets and trodden under the feet of the beast.... If you do thus, you will die spiritually....If you talk to this m&a person you too might become possessed....you might just as well kill yourself if you leave the ministry and get possessed because you will lose all of your rewards at the bema....
Obey leadership and see a miracle or look at 5 senses and sink like peter did.....don`t let your thoughts trick you into considering like eve did....
Damned right it is mind control...you do as we say or you will die :(
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pawtucket
I remember back in the day, when this thread was about a podcast.
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oldiesman
I don't think letting someone go is mind control or part of a mind control process; its just part of life.
If I'm at work and someone is let go because of bad performance, bad morale, bad breath, etc. or whatever, is the employer using mind control techniques on the others? I don't think so.
When you warn someone "if you do this, this will happen", is that mind control? I don't think so.
Even someone who has done something out of fear motivation still has the will to choose other avenues at any time. Victim mentality wants us to think otherwise.
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waysider
Now you see. Oldies
I tried to answer your question about mind control in a perfectly civil manner.
Still, you insist that I am claiming victim mentality.
I never, even once , said that I considered myself a victim.
Comparing a person's dismissal from a job with what happened in the Fellow Laborers program is about as silly as it can get.
No one counseled us and said "this is what we expect and here are the consequences if you fail."
Most of the times we had no idea what the person was accused of.
It was not explained to us and we were forbidden to discuss it.
One time(and there were many) we were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night, ordered to drive to limb HQ within a time frame that was physically impossible to meet and ordered to sit in total silence and darkness for what seemed to be an eternity.
When the meeting started, we were castigated for tardiness and told that we, the Fellow Laborers , were the reason that the ultimate goal of Word Over The World was in jeopardy.
You see, it was told to us that our performance was a total disgrace to "God and His Word" and since we were in the "birthplace" of the ministry, we were dragging the whole ministry down"spiritually".
We had no idea what we could have possibly done.
There was no question and answer session.
We were forbidden to discuss it.
We were forbidden to speak during the meeting
The program was to be terminated when the sun came up.
The next morning, we all met one last time at our 5 am meeting and were informed that we were being given one more chance but we would have to follow orders to a tee without question or else.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't see elements of mind control in that incident?
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excathedra
if i've taken it off track, feel free to delete my posts, paw
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waysider
I think this thread has become somewhat of a living example of what the podcast is describing.
For whatever that's worth.
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oldiesman
No I don't view it that way. I view it as all part of the program to toughen you guys up. Instead of looking at it like a weakling getting victimized, take it as a challenge to do bigger and better things. That was the attitude of mine in the corps despite all the wacky stuff we did there too.
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T-Bone
The first rule of Podcast is, you do not talk about Podcast.
sorry Paw - I couldn't resist.
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Mark Clarke
How do you mean?
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waysider
Mark
What I meant was that the mind control, behavior control and abusive treatments she describes are quickly discredited as exaggerated or false testimony. Then it is implied that her testimony is simply an example of falsely viewing oneself as a "victim" when in reality the person had agreed to this treatment in advance and was perfectly free to walk away from the situation at any time. (Or at least that's how the poster perceived it.)
Furthermore, there was a verbal "strong arm" effort to re-institute the *lockbox* by not talking about these things.
I suppose the same arguments could be made for any woman who finds herself in an abusive domestic situation, not just members of The Way.
"Why don't they just walk out the front door and walk away?"
Life is just not that clear cut and simple.
Then, the bullying begins; suggesting that the person who has been violated is actually the one at fault.
I hope that clarifies what I meant when I indicated I felt there was a parallel similarity.
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pawtucket
Great points Waysider!!
ha ha, T-Bone
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Eyesopen
Hiya OM- It is clear to my by this post alone that you do not truly understand the concept let alone the reality of mind control (or your are playing stupid really well).
You also said this:
There are several issues that beg to be addressed in this line but I'm just going to note that you use those two words "victim mentality" like a catch all phrase in many disagreements. And given your description of a "victim" I submit that if say...Rascal has a victim mentality then you have a abusive mentality. You consistantly give the abuser the "right" to abuse and shift the blame to the "victim". Much in the same manner as the numerous dirt bags that I have had the pleasure of incarcerating after they have beaten their wives. They almost always tell me that "they could have left". To which I respond, "and leave their children?" The beligerant dirt bag would invariably respond with, "Their my kids too, she know's I'll take care of 'em" and then of course there is the inevitable "she shouldnt have _______ and I wouldnt have beat her!"
Just an observation from one who has met many that parrot your words.
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excathedra
oldies, some of your views..... i wonder if you REALLY feel this way
sometimes i think you just don't want to believe you or anyone else could have been "duped"
and when you say these things with such conviction, you are saying them as a 50ish year old man ? not a teen or young 20s for sure
and perhaps not as a person who experienced abuse in your childhood (i hope not anyway)
just think about what i'm saying
by the way, i don't have it in me to argue with you
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VeganXTC
A huge thank you for sending out e-mail notifying me (and others, I'm sure) that this interview is here. I just finished listening, and I'm excited to hear the next installment. After this post, I'm heading over to Amazon to check out Kristen Skedgell's book.
Lots of information discussed and I'll need to listen to it again to process everything.
I chuckled at Pawtucket's first impression of VPW. Maybe that old teaching about first thought is correct after all.
Thanks again. This interview, and the book, are very important, and need to be heard.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Paw, when is part 2 going to be aired?
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pawtucket
We will interview Kristen again after the book is published
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waysider
Looking forward to it.
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jen-o
a challenge to do bigger and better things?!?
oldiesman,
just what could you possibly be referring to??
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waysider
jen-o
Don't feel slighted if OM doesn't answer you right away.
He typically only posts on weekdays.
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waysider
You might want to refer to the "Toughen You Up" thread as well.
I started that thread to keep this one on topic.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=16759
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
maybe the governor of new york or the president ? i dont' know
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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jen-o
waysider,
thanks for the heads up! :D
although oldiesman might never answer me... i guess it was a rhetorical question... :P
i will check out that "toughen you up" thread though...
peace,
jen-o
p.s. excie, i guess that was kinda funny... LOLOL :lol:
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