Biblefan Dave you keep saying "Thus, it all comes back to the emotional reaction to have been involved in TWI"
well it is partly that too ofcourse and Post Tramatic Stress Dissorder,if(IF) you can walk away from a cult like TWI and not have a problem in daily life after that (That is great I am glad for you)however like war it isn't
that easy to walk away and go back into society.
Anyone who used their brains when they were in TWI knows that a cult is simply a group that the mainstream deems is not part of the mainstream. Yet, if we tells ourselves that all "cults" are bad and that we were part of a "cult", then we associate our involvement with TWI as being all bad. Cults are all brainwashers therefore we were brainwashed. Cults are all manipulating, therefore we were manipulated. Cults are only out for money therefore TWI was only out for money. You've summed up your problem right there.
If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI. You complicate your life by attribute actions and attitude that simply were not there, at least not there until LCM took over. All cults are only after your money. If LCM was the evil monster people say he was, why wasn't he out to get rich. By driving people away from TWI, he showed he had little managerial ability but in no way did he show he way out to get rich. In having to sell Emporia and Rome City just to pay bills, he clearly showed he wasn't out for money, otherwise he would have looked for ways to expand membership, not drive people away. Again, there was never any brainwashing going on in TWI. There were attempts to dictate lifestyle, yes, I certainly agree. VPW started out in a very honest and sincere manner of telling people how to live according to the Bible. With the rapid growth of TWI, and with the rapid growth in the number of Way Corps, then we had a lot more people thinking their role was to go around reproving others. Bad, yes, cultic, no. Many churches do the same thing.
Brainwashing is a completely different matter. If you keep telling yourself that you were brainwashed, yeah, you will continue to have difficulties. You will lash out in hatred and bitterness and levy false accusations against people from TWI. No one in TWI was perfect. The only perfect man involved with TWI was Jesus Christ. Did leaders from TWI making false accusations against TWI members? Yes, they most certainly did. So, does that make it right for people here on GSC to do it against VPW or LCM or anyone in TWI? But, it's a free country and people, within limits, can say whatever they want to say, right or wrong.
We were trained in TWI to be bondsevants.soldiers,(slave)to sell the product not so much(Jesus and the
the TRUE scripture(but a twisted scripture) we left our whole life behind most of us to be followers of TWI
everything else was in the past long gone burned to ashes including in alot of cases family(earthly family)
If I looked back with the same negative attitude that you approach it, I guess I could see why you phrased that so strangely. TWI did show us from the Bible that God wants us to be absolutely committed to Him (not to any person or organization) and that a "doulos" was that committed bondslave. I don't know about you, but I certainly want to be 100 per cent committed to God and his son, Jesus Christ. I will never recognize anyone other than Jesus Christ to be between me and my God. I will not hold any individual or any preacher or any pope or any deacon or elder or politician or businessman or world leader or anyone else to come between me and my God, unless it is the lord Jesus Christ. We were not trained in TWI to be bondservants. We were trained in TWI to use sound, logical, reasonable principles for understanding the Bible. Now, there were instances were VPW and LCM did not use those principles. That was certainly a point in the late 80's when it seemed to be more important to substantiate previous teaching than to ensure that those teaching were accurate. That doesn't negate the principles. We were taught how to understand the Bible, but it was up to us to use those principles. I remember VPW in PFAL talking about following the Word, not any of man's ideas. Therefore your statement about having sell a product doesn't water other than than that being the way you remember it. And if you convince yourself that you were in this evil cult with these evil people making you do bad things, then those will be your memories, true or false.
We didn't listen to anything that came between TWI ,it was like those bug lights on a summer day(zap zap
zap)------------------------flatline! What do you mean we didn't listen to anything .... I remember very clearly reading a letter written by John Lynn, Sue Pierce, John Schoenheit, and others saying that there were problems. I happened to be living in the Wash. DC area when Howard Allen came to fire John Lynn for being a part of this letter. You are completely wrong when you say we didn't listen. Hell, yes, we did. John Lynn and the others involved in that 2/27/87 letter did listen. Any many of us read that letter and determined that we could not continue to follow TWI in all good conscience because of the sinful practices and wrongful doctrines that LCM and the BOT were propounding. But instead of seeking the truth, there were some that reacted by yelling cult and started their own false accusations and name-calling. Then they turned their backs on those such as John Lynn and the others who opened our eyes to the wrong things going on by saying they were bad just because they looked like TWI. There was no logic. There was only emotional reaction. Again, some people convinced themselves of this untruth about being in a cult and inflicted upon themselves emotional harms that were never actually present during the time they were involved. It is no different than young women who go through hypnosis to sudden have false memories of being sexually abused as a child. And there have been many stories in the past few years about these false memories that have wreaked havoc on families.
It is okay to have emotions now(that doesn't mean you are walking by the "flesh" it means you are human
and that is what humans do laugh,cry, mourn, weep..we are NOT reaction geered anymore like robots to
"walk in fellowship"according to TWI
Of course, we all have emotions. Nobody was expected to act like a robot in TWI. There again, those are memories you have manufactured because you have convinced yourself you were in this evil cult. If you took this whole "cult" idea out of your head and looks solely at the facts, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements. But, yes, the Bible (not VPW or LCM or any other evil cult leader) encourages to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh. Look it up, it's actually in the Bible.
If you place your hand on a hot stove (REMOVE IT) It's gonna hurt you,unless that "feeling is so numb that
there is NO reaction anymore. Yet, if I am convinced the stove is hot (or that I was brainwashed by this evil cult), then I would not put my hand on the stove, hot or not. Remember, Pavlov removed the leash from the dog, but the dog still didn't move. If I convince myself that I was in an evil cult and that all of these evil people only wanted to use me for their evil purposes, then I would convince myself that all of my experiences in that group were bad.
Being raised Catholic I never had that experience as I did in TWI(so I don't call RC a Cult)the structure
was never as intense as TWI. How about a little RC history. In the 3rd Century, it was a capital crime for anyone to believe Jesus was not God and the RC killed those who did not follow the Creed of the Council of Nicea and destroyed all of the writing to that effect. The RC was involved in the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition murdering thouands of people who did not convert. Even today, people still get ex-communicated in small RC churches for getting divorces and for doing other things contrary to the RC church. Before the mass exodus from TWI in '87, people were considered "out of fellowship" for leaving TWI. The RC Church condemned people to hell if they left the RC Church. I would say the guilt level is far heavier from the RC's than it ever could have been from TWI. TWI never told anyone they were going to hell if they left.
I personally still believe in God and the bible and that Jesus is God(John 1) BUT I am not into "organized
religion" I have made my peace with God after that horendous experience with TWI almost broke my hope
in ever "EVER" seeking that road again.
I guess if everything about TWI was bad because it was a cult, then the sheer logic of relying of the abundance of clear scriptures showing how Jesus couldn't possibly have been God doesn't matter. But, it should. Just using logic, the Trinity doesn't exist, and the word Trinity is never in the Bible. The horrendous experience with TWI is only how horrendous you make it in your mind. If your hope was tied to TWI, then you never got the message. The hope was never TWI, it was always focused on God and his son, Jesus Chris.
...but it took time and years of healing in the process.
The time and years weren't TWI's fault, no matter how bad people acted. A focus on God and Jesus Christ and a correct accounting of what happened during your time in TWI prompts healing. God does heal. Holding bitterness and hatred counteracts that healing. How can one expect healing when they react with hostility and hatred and bitterness? I am sure that LCM and other TWI leaders dished out false accusations. How does lashing back with false accusations work toward healing.
TWI didn't say, but God did in the Bible that love covers a multitude of sins. If we turn our attention to loving people and helping people get on the right path, whether TWI deserves the label of cult or not doesn't matter. If we act with love, it doesn't matter what VPW did or what LCM. We can take the principles for understanding the Bible and go to the Bible and put God in our hearts regardless of our organizational affiliation.
Anyone who used their brains when they were in TWI knows that a cult is simply a group that the mainstream deems is not part of the mainstream.
Actually, that is not what defines a cult. It is, however , part of the rationalization that I heard Mr. Wierwille, himself, tell us.
Yet, if we tells ourselves that all "cults" are bad and that we were part of a "cult", then we associate our involvement with TWI as being all bad.
I never said this or implied an axiomatic relationship.
Cults are all brainwashers (Never said this) therefore we were brainwashed.(implied axiom.) Cults are all manipulating, (Or this) therefore we were manipulated. Cults are only out for money (Or this) therefore TWI was only out for money. You've summed up your problem right there.
(Did I say I have a problem?)
If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI. You complicate your life by attribute actions and attitude that simply were not there, at least not there until LCM took over.
I was involved with TWI long before LCM stepped into the spotlight. The actions and attributes were there.
All cults are only after your money. (Never said this) If LCM was the evil monster people say he was, why wasn't he out to get rich. By driving people away from TWI, he showed he had little managerial ability but in no way did he show he way out to get rich. In having to sell Emporia and Rome City just to pay bills, he clearly showed he wasn't out for money, otherwise he would have looked for ways to expand membership, not drive people away. Again, there was never any brainwashing going on in TWI. There were attempts to dictate lifestyle, yes, I certainly agree. VPW started out in a very honest and sincere manner of telling people how to live according to the Bible.
(The Bible according to his own "private interpretation")
With the rapid growth of TWI, and with the rapid growth in the number of Way Corps, then we had a lot more people thinking their role was to go around reproving others. Bad, yes, cultic, no. Many churches do the same thing.
Brainwashing is a completely different matter. If you keep telling yourself that you were brainwashed, yeah, you will continue to have difficulties. You will lash out in hatred and bitterness ( I don't have hatred and bitterness toward them.) and levy false accusations against people from TWI. (Many of those "accusations" have been well substantiated.) No one in TWI was perfect. The only perfect man involved with TWI was Jesus Christ. Did leaders from TWI making false accusations against TWI members? Yes, they most certainly did. So, does that make it right for people here on GSC to do it against VPW or LCM or anyone in TWI? ( It would be wrong if the accusations were false but, time and time again, they have been substantiated.) But, it's a free country and people, within limits, can say whatever they want to say, right or wrong.
Bible Dave
I wholeheartedly recommend you take a bit of time and familiarize yourself with some of the articles and documents that are right here on GSC. Then, maybe, you can argue your point on a case by case basis.
You said Dave "If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI"
I say If you DO NOT convince yourself that you were involved in this cult(denial)then you are STILL accepting the LIE taught to us by TWI(it is SPIT under the microscope of spiritual warfare) and you are still saying Oh
WOW this is soooooooooooooo cool!
Then therefore you will NEVER take any steps to heal and be FREE ,even though you were brainwashed by
THe Way International Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry.(Doctrine)
What most people did was basicaly throw the baby out with the bath water. TWI did not brainwash people. TWI did not attempt to indoctrinate people to any greater degree than any denomination. TWI was not out for money. And I saw copies of VPW's tax returns. If there was rampant sex going on, I must have certainly been in the wrong section of tents at the ROA or maybe I had to be in an RV to be considered upper crust enough. TWI did not make wild promises about the world ending at predicted times. During the time I was involved with TWI, when I did encounter people who were staunchly devoted to their denomination or church or group, they insisted that the only reason TWI was considered a "cult" was because TWI taught that Jesus was not God. 4 crucified with Christ didn't matter to them. Which day Christ was crucified didn't matter to them. The Trinity was the all-important "cornerstone" of Christianity. Again, a careful examination of scriptures will never substantiate Jesus being God, but their only objection about TWI was the denial of Trinity. I also deny that salt water flows in the Colorado River. I also deny that sheep thrive around coal mines, even though the neighboring state of West Virginia seems to have both.
TWI was right in many things they did teach. Some of the true things they taught caused me to be outraged that the denominational churches had deceived me. TWI did teach logical, reasonable, and good principles for ascertain truths from the Bible. In fact, they did such a good job of teaching those principles that some of the doctrines started to be called into question. Giving is a principle in the Bible. I don't see where tithing is a term that applies to our day and time. You can call it tithing, giving, abundant sharing, offering, or anything else you prefer. There is no percentage given to those in our day and time, so when LCM mandated 15% as a minimum, he was contrary to God's Word. He was informed about that and refused to changed. John Schoenheit showed where VPW and LCM were engaging in sinful sexual practices. Do sinful sexual practices connote an evil cult leader? If so, Jimmy Swaggart would be an evil cult leader. Honestly, I could care less about how many were crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. Which day, Wednesday or Friday, that he died, doesn't make one bit of difference to me other than that he did die as the perfect sacrifice for my sins. I believe there was a verse in the Bible that told us not to get caught up in days or seasons, something to that affect.
The principles to understanding the Bible were and still are very sound principles. We can look back at TWI doctrines and see whether they were right or wrong. We can also look at Baptist and Catholic and Presbyterian doctrines to see whether they were right or wrong. Does the Bible actually mention what the original sin was other than disobedience to God. Was it eating an apple as tradition holds? I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell me. Was it some sort of illicit sexual practice? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say so. I am perfectly fine not knowing something. Do I need to spend hours and hours researching secular writings that might imply some sort of forbidden sex act? No. It is better to understand some than attempt to know everything. Were there so many administrations or dispensations as Bullinger and VPW stated? All I know is that things changed after Adam disobeyed God. Things changed after God made the covenant between He and Abraham. Things changed after God gave Moses the tables with the Laws of God upon them. Things changed after the Day of Pentecost. Does it matter if I call it the Patriarchal Administration? No, because the Bible gives so clear and concrete title to that period of time. The title isn't important. What's important is God's relation to man and we can see that in the men (I don't referring to any singular "man of God") of God that lived during that time.
I was not brainwashed or indoctrinated. In fact, as soon as John Lynn put out that 2/27/87 letter combined with the meeting where Howard Allen came to fire him, I knew it was time to leave. Most of the TWI members (and yes, I called people involved in TWI members because they chose of their own free will to align themselves as I did prior to that period in early 1987) left. They actually started leaving even before them. People started leaving right after the Passing of the Patriarch was disclosed. Many more left in those next couple of years. By the end of 1989, it had to have a thought in those who remained in TWI that something must be up. It seemed like those who remained should have done some more investigation. The mass exodus had to have put doubt in people's minds.
Maybe VPW and LCM did talk far more about evil spirits than they actually saw. When I was there at the meeting where John Lynn was fired, it was like the Devil had flipped the switch. I saw Corps and other members getting up and yelling the most bizarre accusations against John Lynn. It was like the evil spirits were swarming the room, and people I had previously trusted went completely bonkers. That was plenty of motivation to search for the exits. I am sure many people were not privy to show overt displays. But, the Word spread about the problems in TWI. I was calling up people I knew and telling them about problems in TWI. Now, I have never been privy to any leadership meetings in any other church or denomination, so I can only speak to what I saw in that meeting. But the term "cult" never crossed my mind.
My focus went to the most logical and rational means to continue to follow God, to continue to seek truth, yet to be around people who recognized the wrongful doctrines that TWI was teaching at that time and to make sure that the sinful practices TWI leaders were engaging did not carry forth into whatever direction I took. Again, there were never thoughts about TWI being a cult, because I knew the denominations did not even make attempts to seek truth but instead relied upon traditions. Fortunately, John Lynn remained in the area for awhile and was very forthcoming about any of the wrongful practices he had firsthand evidence to. These weren't the exaggerated horror stories people hear on GSC like to expound, but actual firsthand situations.
The RC Church is not immune to bizarre sexual practices. There is no mandate in the Bible for a leader in the church to be celibate, but the RC imposes this wrongful doctrine upon its leaders. So, what happens? You have several priests accused of sexual abuse of minors, mostly of a homosexual nature. You want to talk about horror stories!!! Yet, we don't accuse RC of being a cult, because numbers and money brings about power and power determines who is accepted into the mainstream and the mainstream dictates who and what is a cult.
If you reacted to what you perceived were the horror stories from TWI, why don't you react with the same disgust toward RC. What about twisted doctrines? The RC Church has a doctrine that male masturbation is equivalent to mass murder. Where is that substantiated in the Bible? Nowhere. Where do people in the RC Church focus on for church doctrine? Whatever the pope says goes. Focusing on a man of God like that, isn't that what made TWI bad. People did have reverence for VPW. People have even more revence for the pope. How many times did VPW get the red carpet treatment?
Whatever charge you levy against TWI, a case can be made against the major and many or the minor denominations. Jimmy Swaggart got into trouble. Jim Bakker got into trouble. Jim Bakker was raking in millions of dollars, and I guess half of that was needed for Tammy Faye's makeup. Okay, bad joke, and not in good taste.
I searched many groups and churches before I got involved with TWI. The Jesus Freaks really freaked me out. Way too weird. The Baptists were too judgmental wasting their time protesting outside of the theater where The Last Tango in Paris was showing. The RC's, you go out and do whatever you want, go to confession, then go out and do it all over again. That didn't seem right at all. Yet, all of these Catholics in the dormitory were the party animals getting drunk every weekend and nailing the babes. The Mormons. Wait a minute. I went to bible study at church and when I memorized the books of the Bible, the Book of Mornon wasn't one of them. Jehovah's Witnesses, too stiff in the way they acted. I had gone through the gamut. I was all set to check out Transcendental Meditation when I saw a flyer advertising a meeting that the College WOW's were having on campus. That's where I met people that could answer my questions about God. They let me read the PFAL book before I took the class. That's where the hunger for truth was stoked. That''s where I learned how to understand the Bible. That's where I also learned to tell when people weren't teaching truth, and that's why I later left. So, if you choose for your life to decide TWI was a cult and that you needed years and years to recover from "involvement in a cult", that is your choice. But, TWI stoked that fire within me to seek truth, as it did for many individuals. Thus, it is wrongful to haphazardly fling about this labeling of what is a cult and what isn't because if people suffer from this perception of having been brainwashed or controlled or having their money stolen from them, their suffering is not due to facts but due to misperception. If you allow an ounce of forgiveness toward those that caused you pain, take the good things from TWI, and forget the bad things about TWI, and focus on a true relationship with God and his son, Jesus Christ, all of this "recovery" ceases to be necessary.
No group is perfect. There are bad Republicans and good Republicans. There are good Democrats and bad Democrats. If you like the Cleveland Browns but dislike the Pittsburgh Steelers, that doesn't mean that every single player for the Steelers is a despicable human being. You can find good people in Toastmasters and bad people in Toastmasters.
If you ever have the chance to attend an AA meeting, you ought to. People discuss the horrors in their lives because of alcohol, how it destroyed jobs and families. Than these individuals came to AA and now address every day sober as a wonderful day. And you can see it in their eyes and the way they carry themselves. They become happy, well-adjusted individuals. Not all of them, but some of them. Jail and divorce and poverty can certainly be factors for hatred, bitterness, and resentment. Many of these people faced far worse times than having someone demand they go door-to-door witnessing.
God has a way where there is no way. I don't believe is this whole believing equals receiving business, but a positive focus in life certainly gets one farther than a negative focus. When interviewing for jobs, one of the cardinals sins in the interview process is to tell the prospect employer how bad things were at the previous employer. And it certainly helps to go into a job interview with a positive attitude than to start off the interview telling the interviewer that you know he or she is not going to give you the job anyway. I am not on this Norman Vincent Peale campaign, but just saying that love, forgiveness, and a positive focus goes a long way toward establishing a good foundation for the future.
Uhh Cheranne - I wouldn't bother trying to refute this person. The Kool-aid runs a little thick in his posts. However if you do decide to keep the conversation on-going I will be most entertained by the complete denial of things many of us saw routinely in that cult, brainwashing organization, money stealing, sexually deviant, family destroying organization.
What most people did was basicaly throw the baby out with the bath water. TWI did not brainwash people. TWI did not attempt to indoctrinate people to any greater degree than any denomination. TWI was not out for money. And I saw copies of VPW's tax returns. If there was rampant sex going on, I must have certainly been in the wrong section of tents at the ROA or maybe I had to be in an RV to be considered upper crust enough. TWI did not make wild promises about the world ending at predicted times.
...snip...
I was not brainwashed or indoctrinated.
...snip...
But the term "cult" never crossed my mind.
...snip...
Fortunately, John Lynn remained in the area for awhile and was very forthcoming about any of the wrongful practices he had firsthand evidence to. These weren't the exaggerated horror stories people hear on GSC like to expound, but actual firsthand situations.
...snip...
How many times did VPW get the red carpet treatment?
...snip...
Thus, it is wrongful to haphazardly fling about this labeling of what is a cult and what isn't because if people suffer from this perception of having been brainwashed or controlled or having their money stolen from them, their suffering is not due to facts but due to misperception.
What most people did was basicaly throw the baby out with the bath water. TWI did not brainwash people. Fortunately, John Lynn remained in the area for awhile and was very forthcoming about any of the wrongful practices he had firsthand evidence to. These weren't the exaggerated horror stories people hear on GSC like to expound, but actual firsthand situations.
Did he bother to expound on the wrongful practices he employed himself?? I've never heard him openly say he was guilty of the same.
Recommended Posts
Biblefan Dave
Anyone who used their brains when they were in TWI knows that a cult is simply a group that the mainstream deems is not part of the mainstream. Yet, if we tells ourselves that all "cults" are bad and that we were part of a "cult", then we associate our involvement with TWI as being all bad. Cults are all brainwashers therefore we were brainwashed. Cults are all manipulating, therefore we were manipulated. Cults are only out for money therefore TWI was only out for money. You've summed up your problem right there.
If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI. You complicate your life by attribute actions and attitude that simply were not there, at least not there until LCM took over. All cults are only after your money. If LCM was the evil monster people say he was, why wasn't he out to get rich. By driving people away from TWI, he showed he had little managerial ability but in no way did he show he way out to get rich. In having to sell Emporia and Rome City just to pay bills, he clearly showed he wasn't out for money, otherwise he would have looked for ways to expand membership, not drive people away. Again, there was never any brainwashing going on in TWI. There were attempts to dictate lifestyle, yes, I certainly agree. VPW started out in a very honest and sincere manner of telling people how to live according to the Bible. With the rapid growth of TWI, and with the rapid growth in the number of Way Corps, then we had a lot more people thinking their role was to go around reproving others. Bad, yes, cultic, no. Many churches do the same thing.
Brainwashing is a completely different matter. If you keep telling yourself that you were brainwashed, yeah, you will continue to have difficulties. You will lash out in hatred and bitterness and levy false accusations against people from TWI. No one in TWI was perfect. The only perfect man involved with TWI was Jesus Christ. Did leaders from TWI making false accusations against TWI members? Yes, they most certainly did. So, does that make it right for people here on GSC to do it against VPW or LCM or anyone in TWI? But, it's a free country and people, within limits, can say whatever they want to say, right or wrong.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Bible Dave
I wholeheartedly recommend you take a bit of time and familiarize yourself with some of the articles and documents that are right here on GSC. Then, maybe, you can argue your point on a case by case basis.
waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
All my time in TWI I didn't think it was a cult either. When I got out I never talked about it until 10 yrs later
then I could bring myself to say the word Cult.
What you believe now is your choice but my warning is to those who get involved with something they
really do NOT understand it all involves.
TWI is and was very subtle,it was the message NOT the people I warn of. If you want the truth do not
go to TWI for answers.
Peace
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
You said Dave "If you convince yourself that you were involved in this evil cult, then you therefore will take all of these steps to unbrainwash yourself, even though you were never brainwashed by TWI"
I say If you DO NOT convince yourself that you were involved in this cult(denial)then you are STILL accepting the LIE taught to us by TWI(it is SPIT under the microscope of spiritual warfare) and you are still saying Oh
WOW this is soooooooooooooo cool!
Then therefore you will NEVER take any steps to heal and be FREE ,even though you were brainwashed by
THe Way International Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry.(Doctrine)
Edited by cheranneLink to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
just adding this to make a point.
http://www.slide.com/r/oAZiDhfD5j905e_pqdS...p;view=original
Edited by cheranneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Biblefan Dave
What most people did was basicaly throw the baby out with the bath water. TWI did not brainwash people. TWI did not attempt to indoctrinate people to any greater degree than any denomination. TWI was not out for money. And I saw copies of VPW's tax returns. If there was rampant sex going on, I must have certainly been in the wrong section of tents at the ROA or maybe I had to be in an RV to be considered upper crust enough. TWI did not make wild promises about the world ending at predicted times. During the time I was involved with TWI, when I did encounter people who were staunchly devoted to their denomination or church or group, they insisted that the only reason TWI was considered a "cult" was because TWI taught that Jesus was not God. 4 crucified with Christ didn't matter to them. Which day Christ was crucified didn't matter to them. The Trinity was the all-important "cornerstone" of Christianity. Again, a careful examination of scriptures will never substantiate Jesus being God, but their only objection about TWI was the denial of Trinity. I also deny that salt water flows in the Colorado River. I also deny that sheep thrive around coal mines, even though the neighboring state of West Virginia seems to have both.
TWI was right in many things they did teach. Some of the true things they taught caused me to be outraged that the denominational churches had deceived me. TWI did teach logical, reasonable, and good principles for ascertain truths from the Bible. In fact, they did such a good job of teaching those principles that some of the doctrines started to be called into question. Giving is a principle in the Bible. I don't see where tithing is a term that applies to our day and time. You can call it tithing, giving, abundant sharing, offering, or anything else you prefer. There is no percentage given to those in our day and time, so when LCM mandated 15% as a minimum, he was contrary to God's Word. He was informed about that and refused to changed. John Schoenheit showed where VPW and LCM were engaging in sinful sexual practices. Do sinful sexual practices connote an evil cult leader? If so, Jimmy Swaggart would be an evil cult leader. Honestly, I could care less about how many were crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. Which day, Wednesday or Friday, that he died, doesn't make one bit of difference to me other than that he did die as the perfect sacrifice for my sins. I believe there was a verse in the Bible that told us not to get caught up in days or seasons, something to that affect.
The principles to understanding the Bible were and still are very sound principles. We can look back at TWI doctrines and see whether they were right or wrong. We can also look at Baptist and Catholic and Presbyterian doctrines to see whether they were right or wrong. Does the Bible actually mention what the original sin was other than disobedience to God. Was it eating an apple as tradition holds? I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell me. Was it some sort of illicit sexual practice? I don't know because the Bible doesn't say so. I am perfectly fine not knowing something. Do I need to spend hours and hours researching secular writings that might imply some sort of forbidden sex act? No. It is better to understand some than attempt to know everything. Were there so many administrations or dispensations as Bullinger and VPW stated? All I know is that things changed after Adam disobeyed God. Things changed after God made the covenant between He and Abraham. Things changed after God gave Moses the tables with the Laws of God upon them. Things changed after the Day of Pentecost. Does it matter if I call it the Patriarchal Administration? No, because the Bible gives so clear and concrete title to that period of time. The title isn't important. What's important is God's relation to man and we can see that in the men (I don't referring to any singular "man of God") of God that lived during that time.
I was not brainwashed or indoctrinated. In fact, as soon as John Lynn put out that 2/27/87 letter combined with the meeting where Howard Allen came to fire him, I knew it was time to leave. Most of the TWI members (and yes, I called people involved in TWI members because they chose of their own free will to align themselves as I did prior to that period in early 1987) left. They actually started leaving even before them. People started leaving right after the Passing of the Patriarch was disclosed. Many more left in those next couple of years. By the end of 1989, it had to have a thought in those who remained in TWI that something must be up. It seemed like those who remained should have done some more investigation. The mass exodus had to have put doubt in people's minds.
Maybe VPW and LCM did talk far more about evil spirits than they actually saw. When I was there at the meeting where John Lynn was fired, it was like the Devil had flipped the switch. I saw Corps and other members getting up and yelling the most bizarre accusations against John Lynn. It was like the evil spirits were swarming the room, and people I had previously trusted went completely bonkers. That was plenty of motivation to search for the exits. I am sure many people were not privy to show overt displays. But, the Word spread about the problems in TWI. I was calling up people I knew and telling them about problems in TWI. Now, I have never been privy to any leadership meetings in any other church or denomination, so I can only speak to what I saw in that meeting. But the term "cult" never crossed my mind.
My focus went to the most logical and rational means to continue to follow God, to continue to seek truth, yet to be around people who recognized the wrongful doctrines that TWI was teaching at that time and to make sure that the sinful practices TWI leaders were engaging did not carry forth into whatever direction I took. Again, there were never thoughts about TWI being a cult, because I knew the denominations did not even make attempts to seek truth but instead relied upon traditions. Fortunately, John Lynn remained in the area for awhile and was very forthcoming about any of the wrongful practices he had firsthand evidence to. These weren't the exaggerated horror stories people hear on GSC like to expound, but actual firsthand situations.
The RC Church is not immune to bizarre sexual practices. There is no mandate in the Bible for a leader in the church to be celibate, but the RC imposes this wrongful doctrine upon its leaders. So, what happens? You have several priests accused of sexual abuse of minors, mostly of a homosexual nature. You want to talk about horror stories!!! Yet, we don't accuse RC of being a cult, because numbers and money brings about power and power determines who is accepted into the mainstream and the mainstream dictates who and what is a cult.
If you reacted to what you perceived were the horror stories from TWI, why don't you react with the same disgust toward RC. What about twisted doctrines? The RC Church has a doctrine that male masturbation is equivalent to mass murder. Where is that substantiated in the Bible? Nowhere. Where do people in the RC Church focus on for church doctrine? Whatever the pope says goes. Focusing on a man of God like that, isn't that what made TWI bad. People did have reverence for VPW. People have even more revence for the pope. How many times did VPW get the red carpet treatment?
Whatever charge you levy against TWI, a case can be made against the major and many or the minor denominations. Jimmy Swaggart got into trouble. Jim Bakker got into trouble. Jim Bakker was raking in millions of dollars, and I guess half of that was needed for Tammy Faye's makeup. Okay, bad joke, and not in good taste.
I searched many groups and churches before I got involved with TWI. The Jesus Freaks really freaked me out. Way too weird. The Baptists were too judgmental wasting their time protesting outside of the theater where The Last Tango in Paris was showing. The RC's, you go out and do whatever you want, go to confession, then go out and do it all over again. That didn't seem right at all. Yet, all of these Catholics in the dormitory were the party animals getting drunk every weekend and nailing the babes. The Mormons. Wait a minute. I went to bible study at church and when I memorized the books of the Bible, the Book of Mornon wasn't one of them. Jehovah's Witnesses, too stiff in the way they acted. I had gone through the gamut. I was all set to check out Transcendental Meditation when I saw a flyer advertising a meeting that the College WOW's were having on campus. That's where I met people that could answer my questions about God. They let me read the PFAL book before I took the class. That's where the hunger for truth was stoked. That''s where I learned how to understand the Bible. That's where I also learned to tell when people weren't teaching truth, and that's why I later left. So, if you choose for your life to decide TWI was a cult and that you needed years and years to recover from "involvement in a cult", that is your choice. But, TWI stoked that fire within me to seek truth, as it did for many individuals. Thus, it is wrongful to haphazardly fling about this labeling of what is a cult and what isn't because if people suffer from this perception of having been brainwashed or controlled or having their money stolen from them, their suffering is not due to facts but due to misperception. If you allow an ounce of forgiveness toward those that caused you pain, take the good things from TWI, and forget the bad things about TWI, and focus on a true relationship with God and his son, Jesus Christ, all of this "recovery" ceases to be necessary.
No group is perfect. There are bad Republicans and good Republicans. There are good Democrats and bad Democrats. If you like the Cleveland Browns but dislike the Pittsburgh Steelers, that doesn't mean that every single player for the Steelers is a despicable human being. You can find good people in Toastmasters and bad people in Toastmasters.
If you ever have the chance to attend an AA meeting, you ought to. People discuss the horrors in their lives because of alcohol, how it destroyed jobs and families. Than these individuals came to AA and now address every day sober as a wonderful day. And you can see it in their eyes and the way they carry themselves. They become happy, well-adjusted individuals. Not all of them, but some of them. Jail and divorce and poverty can certainly be factors for hatred, bitterness, and resentment. Many of these people faced far worse times than having someone demand they go door-to-door witnessing.
God has a way where there is no way. I don't believe is this whole believing equals receiving business, but a positive focus in life certainly gets one farther than a negative focus. When interviewing for jobs, one of the cardinals sins in the interview process is to tell the prospect employer how bad things were at the previous employer. And it certainly helps to go into a job interview with a positive attitude than to start off the interview telling the interviewer that you know he or she is not going to give you the job anyway. I am not on this Norman Vincent Peale campaign, but just saying that love, forgiveness, and a positive focus goes a long way toward establishing a good foundation for the future.
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
Uhh Cheranne - I wouldn't bother trying to refute this person. The Kool-aid runs a little thick in his posts. However if you do decide to keep the conversation on-going I will be most entertained by the complete denial of things many of us saw routinely in that cult, brainwashing organization, money stealing, sexually deviant, family destroying organization.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Thanks Rumrunner(I see your point)
Dave,best wishes to you in life,I am not a professional therapist so this is as far as I go.
I will say however that a body runs on BLOOD "pure" blood not watered down or tainted blood
without blood the body will die.
I personally believe that the blood of Jesus Christ was a high price for human mankind and to
abuse that as "teachers" sell "bible classes" that are OFF the real truth.is like selling artifical blood
to a dying man in need of the TRUE life source.
If it was a product on the market that caused harm,or and even for some death! It would be recalled.
If this was a disease for the Center for Disease Control to inspect,they would consider it a Hot Zone.
It is NOT a healthy place for anyone seeking Truth,it will slowly kill you spiritually if you don't get it out
your system....sooner or later .
Meanwhile you may as well be on an artifical respirator cause your NOT breathing on your own(unless
you created AIR) and what is to say that plug supplying the air you breath can't be "pulled".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
Did he bother to expound on the wrongful practices he employed himself?? I've never heard him openly say he was guilty of the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.