[WhiteDove]

This is an older story but it has resurfaced in the news as of late. Although it is not a common practise it still continues in Réunion.

Live and dead dogs and cats are being used as shark bait by amateur fishers on the French-controlled island of Réunion, according to animal-welfare organizations and local authorities.







Here is the link for the National Geographic article from 2005

Here

And the utube video

Utube

[cheranne]

That is just sick!

[Nottawayfer]

That pi$$e$ me off to no end!!! WTF is WRONG with people to do that???

I have watched plenty of shows about sharks, and if you put bloody fish in the water, the shark will come.

GAWD!!! This really riles me up!!!

This post has been edited by Nottawayfer: 15 January 2009 - 08:35 PM

[RumRunner]

Kinda makes you wonder why God would even bother with humans.

[George Aar]

O.K., before we all get TOO worked up:

http://www.snopes.co...r/sharkbait.asp

BTW, I was sorta suspicious of the photo right from the git-go, as I couldn't imagine a dog as large as that being able to be held by a hook without ripping out. Also, a similar rumor used to circulate around Minnesota about kittens and "Muskie" bait. I don't think there was much substance to that either...

[WhiteDove]

Quote

O.K., before we all get TOO worked up:

http://www.snopes.co...r/sharkbait.asp

BTW, I was sorta suspicious of the photo right from the git-go, as I couldn't imagine a dog as large as that being able to be held by a hook without ripping out. Also, a similar rumor used to circulate around Minnesota about kittens and "Muskie" bait. I don't think there was much substance to that either...

George
I read the snopes article long before I posted this ...And what's your point? It does not claim it was a hoax it has multiple status which is what they do when multiple claims are made.

BTW, I was sorta suspicious of the photo right from the git-go, as I couldn't imagine a dog as large as that being able to be held by a hook without ripping out.

The dog was 6 or 7 months old. By the way here is some other video from the vet that treated the dog which by the way was returned to the owner and is doing fine.
NOTE the hooks in the paws as well also ......

HERE

Quote

A veterinarian successfully treated one of the canines, a six-month-old dog with a large fishhook through its snout (see photo), at an SPA (Société Protectrice des Animaux, or Animal Protective Society) clinic in Réunion's capital, St.-Denis. .....From the national geographic article

Perhaps you missed these other snips from the National geographic article

Stephanie Roche of the Brigitte Bardot Foundation, another animal-welfare group in Paris, confirmed that live animals are used as bait on Réunion. But, she said, it is not a common practice. The Bardot organization has been fighting the practice for a decade. But this is the first time Réunion politicians have reacted strongly and swiftly to stop it, Roche said

The French Embassy in Washington, D.C., issued a written statement condemning the use of dogs as shark bait, emphasizing that such acts are illegal and will not be tolerated in the French territory.
The embassy maintains these are "very isolated cases and authorities on the island are closely monitoring the situation
(also in the snopes article as well as the letter confirming that it does happen)

AND
Earlier this month the first court case was held involving a person charged with using live dogs as bait.

Authorities had found a seven-month-old puppy on John Claude Clain's property in July with three fishing hooks in its paws and snout.

Clain, a 51-year-old bread deliveryperson, was found guilty of animal cruelty and fined 5,000 euros (U.S. $5,982), according to Clicanoo, a Réunion newspaper.

The amateur fisher said he did not use the puppy as bait. Instead, Clain said, the dog had been injured by a trap he had set to protect his hens, the paper reported.

Clain's case isn't an isolated one, said Fabienne Jouve of GRAAL (Groupement de Réflexion et d'Action pour l'Animal, or the Grouping of Reflection and Action for Animals), an animal rights organization based in Charenton-le-Pont, France.

"Lately, almost every week, one dog has been found with hooks on the island, not counting the cats found on the beaches partially eaten by the sharks," Jouve said.


So I suppose you think all these dogs just happen to hook themselves through their mouth and Gee.... the underside of not one, but both paws as well in some hen trap? Right What are the odds on that happening Mr. Suspicious...
TOO WORKED UP Yeah you bet! This happened and is still happening

This post has been edited by WhiteDove: 16 January 2009 - 03:19 AM

[George Aar]

My point is that - as it says in the snopes post - that the story is likely blown out of all proportion.

And the photo doesn't even LOOK very convincing, does it? It almost looks like it's been photo-shopped. But I'll even give you that the dog very well could be hooked like that. I've seen dogs do themselves serious harm, left to their own devices, and I wouldn't be too surprised that this one had done something like that.

But what would be the point of some evil, knuckle-dragging ne'er do well putting a hook like that into a dog (and just how would he go about doing it?)? It certainly seems HIGHLY unlikely that a dog that size could be trolled by a hook like that without immediately tearing out.

Now am I certain that live dogs have NEVER been used for shark bait? No. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me too much if some cretin was found to have done it. It just doesn't seem too definitive in the reports. And I'd wouldn't doubt at all that some guys use DEAD dogs for bait, maybe even commonly. The workability of using a dead critter would seem much more probable.

But make the story really dramatic, and couple it with an picture of a cute doggy being horribly misused by some evil, bad, bad man (no matter how improbable), probably sells a lot more newspapers. So am I CERTAIN that Bowser isn't being trolled behind a fishing boat (with one of those horrible FOREIGNERS at the helm) with a meathook in his nose? No, but I find it not at all likely simply due to the implausiblity of it being an effective method. But, gosh, there's no telling what those uncouth non-Anglos might do...

[George Aar]

And after viewing the dramatic video again, another thought just struck me.

How in the hell is that hook supposed to hook the eventual prey (the SHARK, remember, they're shark fishing), especially the ones supposed placed in the dogs paw? Maybe the evil, bad bad foreigners are just trying to hurt the dog as much as possible before he gets eaten? You know how those bad guys are. Especially those FOREIGN bad guys.

And just how is it that the dog got back out of the water and made his way to the veterinarian's place? I mean, the evil bad man looks like he had the dog pretty much under control. How'd the dog get away? Maybe the line broke (sometime before the dog drowned) and the doggie swam back to shore?

I'm sorry Mr. Dove. The story is fishy and I don't mean sharks...

This post has been edited by George Aar: 16 January 2009 - 03:55 AM

[George Aar]

And you'll also note, there's no barbs on those hooks. Why would that be? The evil badman wants to be more sporting?

Hey, here's a thought, there was some kind of meat on that hook and the unsuspecting doggie come upon what he thought was an easy meal and wolfed down the morsel, and the hooks did the rest.

Now what's more believeable? The nasty, conscienceless foreign fishermen routinely subject poor cute doggies to unbelieveable agony in a ridiculously convoluted and ineffective fishing technique - OR -

Rumors abound about nefarious practices committed on the high seas, and some organization milks it for all it's worth in order to bolster donations to their cause?

[waysider]

I had a cat once that decided to investigate my fishing gear on a Christmas Eve.
They are curious creatures, after all.

Oh what fun it is to ride----to Vet Hospital with a screaming cat!

[Twinky]

Mabe it's true, maybe not.

But I'd've thought it would be easier to use an animal as bait by tying a collar round its neck and dragging it along. Hooks wouldn't need to be affixed; once the sharks arrived, they'd snap at anything.

Why have a hook through the animal's snout? A shark would surely bite first at easier to access parts, like a leg or a tail. It wouldn't bite a dog's nose and skewer itself on a hook there. And if the hook through the snout is simply to fix the dog on the fishing line - a rope round the neck would be considerably easier and entail less risk of being bitten oneself.


Waysider: One of the guys in my twig (a fisherman) got a fishhook stuck in his finger. Why he came to me, I don't know. We took him to the hospital. He was squeamish and white with the shock of seeing this thing in his finger (and perhaps with the pain of it).

I can imagine your cat hissing at and attacking anyone who came near. It wouldn't be loking placid about it.

[WhiteDove]

George Aar, on Jan 16 2009, 02:32 AM, said:

My point is that - as it says in the snopes post - that the story is likely blown out of all proportion.

So you felt the need to make a point I made in my original post. OK ????

Quote

This is an older story but it has resurfaced in the news as of late. Although it is not a common practice it still continues in Réunion.

As I mentioned I read the snopes story I also spent considerable time reading blogs, forums and stories on the matter.
By the way not one had a shred of evidence to disprove the story. I understand the problem this is a small island that according to the story is overrun with as many as 150,000 dogs. The are like vermin to the people there A dogs life has little value. That still does not make it excusable.

And the photo doesn't even LOOK very convincing, does it? It almost looks like it's been photo-shopped. But I'll even give you that the dog very well could be hooked like that. I've seen dogs do themselves serious harm, left to their own devices, and I wouldn't be too surprised that this one had done something like that.

Had you read the article you would see that the photo was a still frame from the vet video.
I have no doubts that animals can and do get themselves in predicaments at times. But as I said the chances of a dog hooking it's mouth and then hooking it's feet neatly at about the same place on each paw by itself pretty much is immeasurable odds. Next to impossible

But what would be the point of some evil, knuckle-dragging ne'er do well putting a hook like that into a dog (and just how would he go about doing it?)? It certainly seems HIGHLY unlikely that a dog that size could be trolled by a hook like that without immediately tearing out.

Now am I certain that live dogs have NEVER been used for shark bait? No. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me too much if some cretin was found to have done it. It just doesn't seem too definitive in the reports. And I'd wouldn't doubt at all that some guys use DEAD dogs for bait, maybe even commonly. The workability of using a dead critter would seem much more probable.

Apparently you failed to read the letter from the government that part where it says

Quote

The French Embassy in Washington, D.C., issued a written statement condemning the use of dogs as shark bait, emphasizing that such acts are illegal and will not be tolerated in the French territory.
The embassy maintains these are "very isolated cases and authorities on the island are closely monitoring the situation

Looks pretty definitive to me , very isolated cases means that there was a case ,it happened, they admitted that it did. So what's not definitive about that?


But make the story really dramatic, and couple it with an picture of a cute doggy being horribly misused by some evil, bad, bad man (no matter how improbable), probably sells a lot more newspapers. So am I CERTAIN that Bowser isn't being trolled behind a fishing boat (with one of those horrible FOREIGNERS at the helm) with a meat hook in his nose? No, but I find it not at all likely simply due to the implausibility of it being an effective method. But, gosh, there's no telling what those uncouth non-Anglos might do...


I agree animal groups play up the story, they often as in the case of the video lace the footage with sad music and drama, But if there was no case to work with I suppose they wouldn't be able to do that now would they? Drama does not make the story untrue, facts do ,and I've seen none. By the way sometimes it takes such graphic drama to wake people up to the facts of real life.

This post has been edited by WhiteDove: 16 January 2009 - 10:26 AM

[WhiteDove]

George Aar, on Jan 16 2009, 02:42 AM, said:

And after viewing the dramatic video again, another thought just struck me.

How in the hell is that hook supposed to hook the eventual prey (the SHARK, remember, they're shark fishing), especially the ones supposed placed in the dogs paw? Maybe the evil, bad bad foreigners are just trying to hurt the dog as much as possible before he gets eaten? You know how those bad guys are. Especially those FOREIGN bad guys.

And just how is it that the dog got back out of the water and made his way to the veterinarian's place? I mean, the evil bad man looks like he had the dog pretty much under control. How'd the dog get away? Maybe the line broke (sometime before the dog drowned) and the doggie swam back to shore?

I'm sorry Mr. Dove. The story is fishy and I don't mean sharks...

Given that this is a small puppy I assume that when the bait is eaten the hook would catch the shark if there is no more bait that leaves a hook YES?

Authorities had found a seven-month-old puppy on John Claude Clain's property in July with three fishing hooks in its paws and snout.


Also the operative word here is armature fisherman I read a blog where fisherman on the island said that they do not support or engage in such methods. But acknowledged that it does go on.

This post has been edited by WhiteDove: 16 January 2009 - 10:23 AM

[WhiteDove]

George Aar, on Jan 16 2009, 02:49 AM, said:

And you'll also note, there's no barbs on those hooks. Why would that be? The evil badman wants to be more sporting?

Hey, here's a thought, there was some kind of meat on that hook and the unsuspecting doggie come upon what he thought was an easy meal and wolfed down the morsel, and the hooks did the rest.

Now what's more believeable? The nasty, conscienceless foreign fishermen routinely subject poor cute doggies to unbelieveable agony in a ridiculously convoluted and ineffective fishing technique - OR -

Rumors abound about nefarious practices committed on the high seas, and some organization milks it for all it's worth in order to bolster donations to their cause?

Despite the fact that you have your personal theories on how to fish properly for sharks You have no, none, evidence that this story is not true. You offer only theories on this and that. Typical

But lets look at the real facts- (not theories on how you would fish)

1. The French Embassy had this to say
The French Embassy in Washington, D.C., issued a written statement condemning the use of dogs as shark bait, emphasizing that such acts are illegal and will not be tolerated in the French territory.
The embassy maintains these are "very isolated cases and authorities on the island are closely monitoring the situation

Exactly what would they be monitoring if there were no cases?

2. The animal was treated by a vet ,video taped and returned to it's owner when healed, as it was not a stray. The vets name is supplied.

3. Several animal groups on the ground in Reunion have said that they have found dogs and cats hooked.

4. National Geographic a well known magazine who I have serious doubts that they would print a story without first checking out the validly, did in fact do so.

5. This story now some 3 plus years old to date has not been disproven as a hoax. Why do you suppose that is?

6. And the best for last:

Earlier this month the first court case was held involving a person charged with using live dogs as bait.

Authorities had found a seven-month-old puppy on John Claude Clain's property in July with three fishing hooks in its paws and snout.

Clain, a 51-year-old bread delivery person, was found guilty of animal cruelty and fined 5,000 euros (U.S. $5,982), according to Clicanoo, a Réunion newspaper.

Those are the facts! apparently the judge does not share your theories on how fishy the story is , and rumors abounding on the high sea. I guess that real evidence just got in the way.

So much for the old adage It's a dogs life..... Apparently not on Reunion.........


Oh! by the way you may have noticed that I left out in my response your straw man attempt to distract from the facts of this story,( namely the Evil Foreigners) I didn't miss it. It just had zero to do with the facts. That said I have plenty to say about those evil foreigners especially those towel headed airplane flying Muslim ones.

This post has been edited by WhiteDove: 16 January 2009 - 10:58 AM

[waysider]

Has anything like this ever happened?---Probably.
Is it likely to be a widespread practice?---I doubt it.

As callous as this may seem, why is it really any of our business what people outside of our country are doing to supply the food chain? In South Korea, dogs are raised as livestock and butchered for food. It's technically illegal but, for the most part, unenforced. It doesn't represent the diet of the majority of the population. Probably only about 10% (3 million) include it in their diets which are primarily vegetarian based. Is it our place to stop them? In France, foie gras is a popular food item. For those who are unfamiliar, foie gras is produced by forcing food down a goose's throat using a metal pipe. This is done to enlarge the goose's liver. Again, do we have a right to stop them?

While I agree that such a practice is cruel, maybe we should focus some of our empathy toward helping the people in Mississippi and Louisiana who have yet to recover from Katrina.

Just my opinion

[WhiteDove]

waysider, on Jan 16 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

Has anything like this ever happened?---Probably.
Is it likely to be a widespread practice?---I doubt it.

As callous as this may seem, why is it really any of our business what people outside of our country are doing to supply the food chain? In South Korea, dogs are raised as livestock and butchered for food. It's technically illegal but, for the most part, unenforced. It doesn't represent the diet of the majority of the population. Probably only about 10% (3 million) include it in their diets which are primarily vegetarian based. Is it our place to stop them? In France, foie gras is a popular food item. For those who are unfamiliar, foie gras is produced by forcing food down a goose's throat using a metal pipe. This is done to enlarge the goose's liver. Again, do we have a right to stop them?

While I agree that such a practice is cruel, maybe we should focus some of our empathy toward helping the people in Mississippi and Louisiana who have yet to recover from Katrina.

Just my opinion

It's our business because animals should be humanely treated, It's our responsibility because they can't do it for themselves they are at our mercy. Unfortunately some of us humans don't deserve the privilege to care for them. and being unenforced is the problem , pay a small fine here and there fish hook a few of the perpetrators and drag them for shark bait when they are caught and that sh** would come to a halt quickly.

This post has been edited by WhiteDove: 16 January 2009 - 11:12 AM

[George Aar]

WhiteDove, on Jan 16 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

Despite the fact that you have your personal theories on how to fish properly for sharks You have no, none, evidence that this story is not true. You offer only theories on this and that. Typical

But lets look at the real facts- (not theories on how you would fish)

1. The French Embassy had this to say
The French Embassy in Washington, D.C., issued a written statement condemning the use of dogs as shark bait, emphasizing that such acts are illegal and will not be tolerated in the French territory.
The embassy maintains these are "very isolated cases and authorities on the island are closely monitoring the situation

Exactly what would they be monitoring if there were no cases?

2. The animal was treated by a vet ,video taped and returned to it's owner when healed, as it was not a stray. The vets name is supplied.

3. Several animal groups on the ground in Reunion have said that they have found dogs and cats hooked.

4. National Geographic a well known magazine who I have serious doubts that they would print a story without first checking out the validly, did in fact do so.

5. This story now some 3 plus years old to date has not been disproven as a hoax. Why do you suppose that is?

6. And the best for last:

Earlier this month the first court case was held involving a person charged with using live dogs as bait.

Authorities had found a seven-month-old puppy on John Claude Clain's property in July with three fishing hooks in its paws and snout.

Clain, a 51-year-old bread delivery person, was found guilty of animal cruelty and fined 5,000 euros (U.S. $5,982), according to Clicanoo, a Réunion newspaper.

Those are the facts! apparently the judge does not share your theories on how fishy the story is , and rumors abounding on the high sea. I guess that real evidence just got in the way.

So much for the old adage It's a dogs life..... Apparently not on Reunion.........


Oh! by the way you may have noticed that I left out in my response your straw man attempt to distract from the facts of this story,( namely the Evil Foreigners) I didn't miss it. It just had zero to do with the facts. That said I have plenty to say about those evil foreigners especially those towel headed airplane flying Muslim ones.

[waysider]

WhiteDove, on Jan 16 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

It's our business because animals should be humanely treated, It's our responsibility because they can't do it for themselves they are at our mercy. Unfortunately some of us humans don't deserve the privilege to care for them. and being unenforced is the problem , pay a small fine here and there fish hook a few of the perpetrators and drag them for shark bait when they are caught and that sh** would come to a halt quickly.

I never said that animals should not be humanely treated.
What I said is that it's none of our business to tell people in other parts of the world what they should and shouldn't eat nor is it our responsibility to control their production methods.
We are not the world's "police force".

[WhiteDove]

waysider, on Jan 16 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

I never said that animals should not be humanely treated.
What I said is that it's none of our business to tell people in other parts of the world what they should and shouldn't eat nor is it our responsibility to control their production methods.
We are not the world's "police force".

And I never claimed that you did ,did I

You asked the question why is it our business and I responded with an answer It's our business because animals should be humanely treated, It's our responsibility because they can't do it for themselves they are at our mercy. I made no charge that you supported animals being inhumanely treated. It also is our business because it s illegal a crime and we all have a moral responsibility to uphold such. Another strawman argument No one is discusssing what people eat in other countries that is not the issue.

[cheranne]

I went fishing with my dog ,a little black lab named pepper he got into the fishing pole on the drive to the lake
and got a hook in his mouth. Poor baby he was screaming and I had to pull over and take care of it right
their!

He was so loud people were coming out of there homes to see what happened and my son who was 10 yrs old
was freaking out too.

I grabbed my dog and held him still and carefully took the hook out of his mouth(my nursing skills paid off
and what a relief!!

It was a gash and we put hydrogen peroxide on it and treated it to he healed and always put fishing gear out
of the reach of the dogs.

I have 4 Labs and just love them!