t least he's being honest about his TWI connections. I have seen earlier versions of his bio where the Way connections were not mentioned.
Yea, he mentions it but its a little overblown. 6 out of 8 paragraphs mention TWI. What has he been doing in the 20 years since? I didnt see where he went to any schools, colleges or seminaries or had other points of professional development. He spends a heckuva lot of time talking about an organization that he is 'light years different from"
I spose it beats those offshoots where people claim they went into "a seminary" and wont own up to that they went into The Way Corps
I got to know VF and the rest of his family between 89-93 (I was friends with his secretary at that time Georgia M. I used to visit her about once a month from FT. Devens, MA).
I admit that I liked Vince and the rest of his family and enjoyed going to some of his functions. I also became friends with some of the other people that were associated with VF at that time. When I moved to AZ, I lost track of many of the things going on in NY (it was around this time that VF was changing doctrine that he was teaching). I am still friends with someone who is still associated with VF.
For myself, I don't care much of what different twi people are doing (maybe a little curious). I have other, more pressing issues going on with my life right now.
what I wonder.. did he go on to get any legitimate accredidation or anything? Something like a degree? Without some kind of "professional" development and connections, one's options are rather limited..
a lot of offshoot types seem to stay in the nursery a lifetime.. and have not much more than what they learned from ole "st" vic..
What I wonder about all the Wayfer-derivative organization "leaders" is,
do they really find working at a real job THAT odious? I guess they must, seeing as how they're so willing to continue to debase themselves perpetrating such a vapid shell game.
I didnt see where he went to any schools, colleges or seminaries or had other points of professional development.
...That's because he never went to any schools, colleges or seminaries. His ministry is based on his twi training and he still hangs his hat on Wierwille ordaining him. If that's his gig, he can have it...sounds like it's a better paying job than hanging wallpaper.
Looking at their web site, I see they have Family Camps, Devotion With Motion, Campfires, and Advances.
Nope. No similarities there. :blink:
So because they use four words that the Way used, do you assume they are similar? Gee you used looking ,at ,their, they, have, in your post, I guess that makes you similar to the way as well cause you used the same words that were used in the Way. Perhaps you should spend some time finding out what they really do before commenting based on a glance at some similar words on a web site.
So because they use four words that the Way used, do you assume they are similar? Gee you used looking ,at ,their, they, have, in your post, I guess that makes you similar to the way as well cause you used the same words that were used in the Way. Perhaps you should spend some time finding out what they really do before commenting based on a glance at some similar words on a web site.
Your post makes no sense.
Do you mean there are non-TWI influenced people who also use the word "advance" when they really mean "retreat"?
...That's because he never went to any schools, colleges or seminaries. His ministry is based on his twi training and he still hangs his hat on Wierwille ordaining him. If that's his gig, he can have it...sounds like it's a better paying job than hanging wallpaper.
I think this is true of many of the Offshoots when it comes to their religious and spiritual training.
Please understand ...this is not in defense of anyone....
I've been "out and about" different churches, groups etc....there are tons of people who profess ordination who never went to a seminary, college etc. And why? I asked a couple of my friends who claim ordination, and who also have ordained others...and her reply was.......The book of Acts...see anyone there going to seminary or college?? She and her husband run a place for homeless people...and it is a huge success, a huge blessing, and has turned this town into a giving town. I have no doubt that their ordination is from God.
That's where I think it has to come from is God....not man.
Just my 2 cents worth and it's probably worth what you paid for it!!!!!!
There are a number of other reasons why no one in Acts was ordained.
There was no "canon of scripture."
There were no standard set of beliefs (despite what VPW taught)
There was no organization called Christianity
There was no centralized body of leadership that actually had authority.
We have all that now. Many ministers that I know of go to seminary or through some sort of accredited school to get some credentials even if they don't agree with the theology. A presbyterian minister can't be ordained - even with the credentials - until that minister has been "called" to a congregation. It's not a matter of calling oneself ordained and looking for a church or seeding a church.
Of all the people who have left TWI and gone on to ministry, I only know of one who has followed some sort of standard ordination path. Perhaps others know of others who have gone through seminary and received ordination.
The organized religious structures/denominations definitely require a seminary experience. And that's fine.
I was only pointing out that all the ordained people of God did not necessarily go to a seminary. But you can find ordained people in both realms.... you can find people who go to seminary and get ordained but God didn't call them at all. And you can find many who are called of God and get ordained from a seminary. You can find people who didn't go to seminary who are ordained by whoever and start their own thing and God didn't call them at all. And you can find people who didn't go to seminary are ordained and have very fruitful ministries. And for me, it's the fruit of what they do.....which is a very good indicator.
My point was that not every person ordained goes through seminary, but obviously many do. And God knows who is called and who is not.....
Do you mean there are non-TWI influenced people who also use the word "advance" when they really mean "retreat"?
You assume they meant retreat I'm not sure that is the case do you have documentation on that since your big on having such. The point being just because they use some similar or the same words it still requires a closer look before one just assumes they know what they do or don't do.
You assume they meant retreat I'm not sure that is the case do you have documentation on that since your big on having such. The point being just because they use some similar or the same words it still requires a closer look before one just assumes they know what they do or don't do.
Do you know of any groups besides The Way that have "Advances"?
For the record, I'm not criticizing the organization or event, simply pointing out that it bares a remarkable resemblance to something with which most of us are quite familiar.
Are you personally familiar with this group?
Do YOU know what they do or don't do?
Your level of knee jerk defense seems inordinately high.
The organized religious structures/denominations definitely require a seminary experience. And that's fine.
I was only pointing out that all the ordained people of God did not necessarily go to a seminary. But you can find ordained people in both realms.... you can find people who go to seminary and get ordained but God didn't call them at all. And you can find many who are called of God and get ordained from a seminary. You can find people who didn't go to seminary who are ordained by whoever and start their own thing and God didn't call them at all. And you can find people who didn't go to seminary are ordained and have very fruitful ministries. And for me, it's the fruit of what they do.....which is a very good indicator.
My point was that not every person ordained goes through seminary, but obviously many do. And God knows who is called and who is not.....
That's a fair assessment I believe.
And I would agree as well. Assuming of course that one wanted to be fair and not have there mind already made up that is.
I think the point is, we (or I) hold *them* to a higher standard..
without painting all who left da ministry with the same brush..
if they left as second-rate hacks (or worse) under the vicster's tutelage..
isn't it REASONABLE to ask what they've done about improving themselves and not just stay in that condition?
What kind of SKILLS have you learned, since leaving.. what kind of communication skills.. what are you doing, that is any bit different from the old "ministry"?
all I'm saying is.. a little self-improvement goes a long way..
the sad fact is, that, outside of several doctrines, and different word-ology, vinnie has'nt, imho, changed anything.......his financial base has always been and remains today, a core of stalwart ex-twi followers who remain entrenched in vinnie's style of "ministry"......he has parlayed to the max all his twi training and ties to "money-launder" his church into an acceptable "kingdom-ready" version of vic's way of doing things, minus the personal perversions vinnie once accepted as truth...........it's a free country, and vinnie's not doing anything illegal as far as i know.......but, as far as "self-improvement" goes, all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot, and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college, and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase..........like i said.......free country.
vinnie must live as a prisoner of his own conscience.........how he does it, i do not know.........but, i'm sure the "foregiveness of god" is a big personal agenda item of which vinnie, without apologizing to the hundreds of genuine christians he used and abused in the past, makes full theological and practical use...........i'll accept his "conversion" as real when i get a phone call from him with some kind of attempt on his part for settlement of his immoral and unjust past in regards to his personal dealings with me, and others i know whom he personally mistreated.......his alliance with geer in his early years of ex-twi living are of particular concern to me..........as i said, it's a free country........vinnie's true conscience will be his guide.......i'll let you know when his conscience moves him to clear itself with his past dealings with me................don't hold your breath!...............peace.
But all of that stopped when someone decided he was: "The Leader!"
Actually church politics, underhanded machinations, divisions, and denominations were present from the get-go and is readily evident to those who aren't trying to make it all fit like a hand in a glove and attempting to recreate a "first century" church style organization.
I think the point is, we (or I) hold *them* to a higher standard..
without painting all who left da ministry with the same brush..
if they left as second-rate hacks (or worse) under the vicster's tutelage..
isn't it REASONABLE to ask what they've done about improving themselves and not just stay in that condition?
What kind of SKILLS have you learned, since leaving.. what kind of communication skills.. what are you doing, that is any bit different from the old "ministry"?
all I'm saying is.. a little self-improvement goes a long way..
Ham,We should hold them to a higher standard,for the most part,"they"were lords over gods people,they could not eat what they fed us.
Yes you can get improvment at higher learning colleges,maybe "they"would not pass,as they have never learned humility.
I have seen people with less ability,but a whole lot more heart.
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Tzaia
So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?
Oakspear
At least he's being honest about his TWI connections. I have seen earlier versions of his bio where the Way connections were not mentioned.
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mstar1
Yea, he mentions it but its a little overblown. 6 out of 8 paragraphs mention TWI. What has he been doing in the 20 years since? I didnt see where he went to any schools, colleges or seminaries or had other points of professional development. He spends a heckuva lot of time talking about an organization that he is 'light years different from"
I spose it beats those offshoots where people claim they went into "a seminary" and wont own up to that they went into The Way Corps
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waysider
Looking at their web site, I see they have Family Camps, Devotion With Motion, Campfires, and Advances.
Nope. No similarities there. :blink:
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Zshot
I got to know VF and the rest of his family between 89-93 (I was friends with his secretary at that time Georgia M. I used to visit her about once a month from FT. Devens, MA).
I admit that I liked Vince and the rest of his family and enjoyed going to some of his functions. I also became friends with some of the other people that were associated with VF at that time. When I moved to AZ, I lost track of many of the things going on in NY (it was around this time that VF was changing doctrine that he was teaching). I am still friends with someone who is still associated with VF.
For myself, I don't care much of what different twi people are doing (maybe a little curious). I have other, more pressing issues going on with my life right now.
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Ham
what I wonder.. did he go on to get any legitimate accredidation or anything? Something like a degree? Without some kind of "professional" development and connections, one's options are rather limited..
a lot of offshoot types seem to stay in the nursery a lifetime.. and have not much more than what they learned from ole "st" vic..
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George Aar
What I wonder about all the Wayfer-derivative organization "leaders" is,
do they really find working at a real job THAT odious? I guess they must, seeing as how they're so willing to continue to debase themselves perpetrating such a vapid shell game.
They're all well beyond disgusting, IMNSHO...
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GrouchoMarxJr
...That's because he never went to any schools, colleges or seminaries. His ministry is based on his twi training and he still hangs his hat on Wierwille ordaining him. If that's his gig, he can have it...sounds like it's a better paying job than hanging wallpaper.
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WhiteDove
So because they use four words that the Way used, do you assume they are similar? Gee you used looking ,at ,their, they, have, in your post, I guess that makes you similar to the way as well cause you used the same words that were used in the Way. Perhaps you should spend some time finding out what they really do before commenting based on a glance at some similar words on a web site.
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waysider
Your post makes no sense.
Do you mean there are non-TWI influenced people who also use the word "advance" when they really mean "retreat"?
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Rejoice
I think this is true of many of the Offshoots when it comes to their religious and spiritual training.
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newlife
Please understand ...this is not in defense of anyone....
I've been "out and about" different churches, groups etc....there are tons of people who profess ordination who never went to a seminary, college etc. And why? I asked a couple of my friends who claim ordination, and who also have ordained others...and her reply was.......The book of Acts...see anyone there going to seminary or college?? She and her husband run a place for homeless people...and it is a huge success, a huge blessing, and has turned this town into a giving town. I have no doubt that their ordination is from God.
That's where I think it has to come from is God....not man.
Just my 2 cents worth and it's probably worth what you paid for it!!!!!!
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waysider
You make a good point, newlife.
These people are actually DOING something for the less fortunate with what they consider to be their calling.
Now contrast that to what many people in The Way did with their "ordinations".
We thought we were living like the believers in the Book of Acts, when, in reality, we were living a contradiction.
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Tzaia
There are a number of other reasons why no one in Acts was ordained.
There was no "canon of scripture."
There were no standard set of beliefs (despite what VPW taught)
There was no organization called Christianity
There was no centralized body of leadership that actually had authority.
We have all that now. Many ministers that I know of go to seminary or through some sort of accredited school to get some credentials even if they don't agree with the theology. A presbyterian minister can't be ordained - even with the credentials - until that minister has been "called" to a congregation. It's not a matter of calling oneself ordained and looking for a church or seeding a church.
Of all the people who have left TWI and gone on to ministry, I only know of one who has followed some sort of standard ordination path. Perhaps others know of others who have gone through seminary and received ordination.
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newlife
The organized religious structures/denominations definitely require a seminary experience. And that's fine.
I was only pointing out that all the ordained people of God did not necessarily go to a seminary. But you can find ordained people in both realms.... you can find people who go to seminary and get ordained but God didn't call them at all. And you can find many who are called of God and get ordained from a seminary. You can find people who didn't go to seminary who are ordained by whoever and start their own thing and God didn't call them at all. And you can find people who didn't go to seminary are ordained and have very fruitful ministries. And for me, it's the fruit of what they do.....which is a very good indicator.
My point was that not every person ordained goes through seminary, but obviously many do. And God knows who is called and who is not.....
That's a fair assessment I believe.
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WhiteDove
You assume they meant retreat I'm not sure that is the case do you have documentation on that since your big on having such. The point being just because they use some similar or the same words it still requires a closer look before one just assumes they know what they do or don't do.
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waysider
Do you know of any groups besides The Way that have "Advances"?
Here's a link to the registration form.
http://www.kingdomready.us/pdfs/womenadvancereg2009.pdf
For the record, I'm not criticizing the organization or event, simply pointing out that it bares a remarkable resemblance to something with which most of us are quite familiar.
Are you personally familiar with this group?
Do YOU know what they do or don't do?
Your level of knee jerk defense seems inordinately high.
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frank123lol
Maybe it is a calling he answered,who knows,Adegree,just because you went to a university,does not mean you know anymore,
It just means you put up with the regin for four years.He seems genuine,so God bless him.
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
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WhiteDove
And I would agree as well. Assuming of course that one wanted to be fair and not have there mind already made up that is.
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What The Hey
So what they basically had way back then was:
There were no "chuch politics" and why
There were no "underhanded machinations" so
There were no "divisions" and why
There were no "denominations"
among those who followed Jesus Christ.
But all of that stopped when someone decided he was: "The Leader!"
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WordWolf
If one limits oneself to only what's written in Scripture,
it's obvious this is WRONG on several counts.
"No church politics." Gee, that discounts Peter chiding the Law-mongers who wanted Judaism
continued, complete with the yoke of the Law that was too heavy for them or their ancestors to bear.
No "underhanded machinations." Gee, that discounts Alexander the coopersmith.
No "divisions." HA!
No "denominations". Gee, that discounts the "Paul-Apollos-Cephas-Christ" people, of whom the last set were the craziest.
Divisions and pettiness didn't enter at any point because there would have to have been a time it wasn't around SOMEWHERE.
Maybe the day of Pentecost ITSELF, but after that....
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Ham
I think the point is, we (or I) hold *them* to a higher standard..
without painting all who left da ministry with the same brush..
if they left as second-rate hacks (or worse) under the vicster's tutelage..
isn't it REASONABLE to ask what they've done about improving themselves and not just stay in that condition?
What kind of SKILLS have you learned, since leaving.. what kind of communication skills.. what are you doing, that is any bit different from the old "ministry"?
all I'm saying is.. a little self-improvement goes a long way..
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DontWorryBeHappy
the sad fact is, that, outside of several doctrines, and different word-ology, vinnie has'nt, imho, changed anything.......his financial base has always been and remains today, a core of stalwart ex-twi followers who remain entrenched in vinnie's style of "ministry"......he has parlayed to the max all his twi training and ties to "money-launder" his church into an acceptable "kingdom-ready" version of vic's way of doing things, minus the personal perversions vinnie once accepted as truth...........it's a free country, and vinnie's not doing anything illegal as far as i know.......but, as far as "self-improvement" goes, all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot, and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college, and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase..........like i said.......free country.
vinnie must live as a prisoner of his own conscience.........how he does it, i do not know.........but, i'm sure the "foregiveness of god" is a big personal agenda item of which vinnie, without apologizing to the hundreds of genuine christians he used and abused in the past, makes full theological and practical use...........i'll accept his "conversion" as real when i get a phone call from him with some kind of attempt on his part for settlement of his immoral and unjust past in regards to his personal dealings with me, and others i know whom he personally mistreated.......his alliance with geer in his early years of ex-twi living are of particular concern to me..........as i said, it's a free country........vinnie's true conscience will be his guide.......i'll let you know when his conscience moves him to clear itself with his past dealings with me................don't hold your breath!...............peace.
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Tzaia
Actually church politics, underhanded machinations, divisions, and denominations were present from the get-go and is readily evident to those who aren't trying to make it all fit like a hand in a glove and attempting to recreate a "first century" church style organization.
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frank123lol
Ham,We should hold them to a higher standard,for the most part,"they"were lords over gods people,they could not eat what they fed us.
Yes you can get improvment at higher learning colleges,maybe "they"would not pass,as they have never learned humility.
I have seen people with less ability,but a whole lot more heart.
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