While I think TWI ended up teaching as you said. I didn't have a problem with this statment, because in fact it was often true. Many Christian groups taught on the evils of riches and the value of poverty and how wonderful it was for God to teach you through illness and how you are supposed to bear the weight of the world. Most the people I meet who openly proffessed to be Christians in the sixties and seventies were almost exactly like VPW discribed them in the Class. In fact TWI was the first place I heard that it was necessary for a Christian to be poor. Then of course TWI begain turning people into exactly that, poor, rundown, often unhappy Christians who lived in fear of their leadership and often of God.
So, then, how does that align itself with the teachings that said the abundant life was spiritual in nature? Here, in session #1, he's promoting it, in part, as material abundance. Later, that definition fell by the wayside.
So, then, how does that align itself with the teachings that said the abundant life was spiritual in nature? Here, in session #1, he's promoting it, in part, as material abundance. Later, that definition fell by the wayside.
true christians are often not materially abundant or even in health and mind abundant, but they are abundant in the fruit of the spirit. anybody wanna bet that this is what jesus meant?
I have no idea what it really means. In fact, if you look at the context here, abundance isn't the focal point, anyhow. But, here's food for thought: If the abundant life referenced in John 10:10 is, in fact, something spiritual in nature, what was it Wierwille supposedly saw in the "unbelievers" that he perceived as "abundance"?
I have no idea what it really means. In fact, if you look at the context here, abundance isn't the focal point, anyhow. But, here's food for thought: If the abundant life referenced in John 10:10 is, in fact, something spiritual in nature, what was it Wierwille supposedly saw in the "unbelievers" that he perceived as "abundance"?
The business acumen of wierwille perceived that "material abundance" and "spiritual abundance" were blood brothers of wealthy parents.
My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God; but somehow we lacked an abundant life
that says almost everything, doesn't it?
maybe he wasn't "plodding ahead with the things of God"..
soo... what then. he then makes a deal with some "entity" to give him a multi-level marketing scheme, not as it had been known since the first century..
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Herr Victoid, son of Erma, son of Ernst, brother of Rueben, brother of Hairylegs, father of J.P. Puffenstuff , grandfather of the anointed messiah who will come to be known as Victoid Jr., and kin to the Wierwillonians of Hoopyville. Thus saith the Lord, "Victoid, bring me 6 faithful followers who will bring in 66 more faithful followers who will bring in 666 more faithful followers, etc. etc., etc. (Thou gettest thine picture.) and the snow gates of Heaven will burst forth with a black snow such as has n'er been seen since the last time black snow was seen. And upon thy petroleum distillate dispensing alters, I , the Lord of MLM, will reveal myself."
VP was not giving a blanket judgement on all Christianity; his alternative if he couldn't have an abundant life was to get out of the ministry and quit promoting something he himself couldn't live. Perhaps he figured that the verse where Jesus said "he that is unfaithful in that which is least is also unfaithful in that which is much" applied here. That "that which is least" is financial abundance and "that which is much" is spiritual abundance, fruit of the spirit.
Many unbelievers shun any religion which keeps people poor. VP was just trying to be honest. As for what constitutes material or spiritual abundance? Dictionary defines abundance as having full sufficiency. Having something to give (or not give) beyond what you need. Paul said he received an abundance of revelation in the thorn in the flesh section (2 Cor. 12). Jesus said a man's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses (Luke 12:15). Some religious people are always trying to put down rich people. They claim to be morally superior, but it's just envy. Being rich is just a tool, a menu item, something that can be used to the help or hurt of whoever is rich. It doesn't make anyone's life better in and of itself. Rich people may have more things than regular people, but they also have more headaches. It's not worth envying.
VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.
I think if you will allow yourself to look at this honestly, you will see that it was really a form of bait and switch.
First, he reeled suckers into the class with the lure of an abundance that he CLEARLY portrayed as being material in nature. Then, he switched the definition when people started to question his promises.
My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God; but somehow we lacked an abundant life.
Wierwille builds his case in pfal.....destroyed for "lack of knowledge," not rightly-dividing the Word of God, and NOT operating the manifestations of the spirit.
Yet, throughout his ministry.....plodding ahead with the things of God, sermon after sermon. Where was the demonstrated power? Where were the healings via the man of God? Where was indisputable revelation to thwart the attacks of the adversary (devil)?
In retrospect, the trustees were plodding along and promoting the classes, programs, and machinery of the ministry. And, by the mid-80s.....everything had regressed back to blindly following leadership and plodding in the same rut. Walking with power, walking with "all 9 (manifestations) all the time" was replaced by "The Word is the ministry and the ministry is the Word." In the mid-90s......the terminology was hyped as "the prevailing word."
Wierwille said he lacked the abundance he saw unbelievers manifesting. Did these unbelievers have "the rightly divided word"? Did they "speak in tongues much"? Did they operate "all 9, all the time"? Maybe he should have followed the example of the unbelievers and gotten a real, honest-to-goodness job.
I have no idea what it really means. In fact, if you look at the context here, abundance isn't the focal point, anyhow. But, here's food for thought: If the abundant life referenced in John 10:10 is, in fact, something spiritual in nature, what was it Wierwille supposedly saw in the "unbelievers" that he perceived as "abundance"?
The only answer I can come up with is what my WOW coordinator told us WOWs. Life with the manifestations is the abundant life. But then, that doesn't fit because not all Christians manifest.
My personal opinion: it was purposely sold as physical abundance to attract people, then once snared, they changed the definition. Put simply, the abundant life is a scam.
I mean, whenever da vey needed more ABS they had you turn to Malachi, where it says the windows of heaven will open and pour you out a blessing your stores won't be able to contain. After ABS for a year about 25 years ago I can tell you I'm still waiting to see that.
just tagging on here -- don't want to start a thread
my mom and i were talking yesterday about jews and she felt so bad about people saying it never happened
i told her about the book in the way book store -- the myth -- she said oh that makes sense -- his name wierwille -- and him being a cult leader and all
it's funny she's the only one in my family who took the class because i begged her to
The "abundant life" was the carrot before the horse. We were drawn in with the promise of power and abundance. Those were synonymous with the list on the green card, "more harmony in the home," and the like. Doctor said something like, "Ask any businessman, he knows what prosperity is." Power was supposed to be in positive believing, faith v. fear, etc. Get what you want -- the red drapes on the windows.
When VPW originally taught PFAL, he taught all nine manifestations -- the fullness of spiritual power, or so we were taught. But by the time we baby boomers got into it, there were 3 classes that were supposed to teach you enough to manifest "all nine all the time." Session 12 makes you think like you've got a hotline to God. Now some prayers are gonna get answered! But we needed more classes to get to the other 8. And more classes meant more money, and more time spent in TWI.
Twig, abundant sharing, class, Twig, abundant sharing, class, WOW, more Twig, more classes, Corps. All designed to relieve us of our free labor and money. And slowly, we were taught what to want.
VP was not giving a blanket judgement on all Christianity; his alternative if he couldn't have an abundant life was to get out of the ministry and quit promoting something he himself couldn't live. Perhaps he figured that the verse where Jesus said "he that is unfaithful in that which is least is also unfaithful in that which is much" applied here. That "that which is least" is financial abundance and "that which is much" is spiritual abundance, fruit of the spirit.
i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.
VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.
so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.
Yes, it was frequently taught in twigs and branches that "least" meant material things and "much" meant spiritual things. It was used in a number of ways. One way was that if you weren't faithful enough to ABS (least) you couldn't be counted on to be faithful with spiritual (much) things. Another way it was used was to say that if you didn't pay attention to minute details (material things),such as when setting up a class, God would not entrust you with revelation (spiritual things).
Here again we see the carrot on a stick. It was used to coerce people into abundantly sharing money and volunteering their labors. In reality, it isn't much different than "buying favors from God", is it?
edit: I seem to remember hearing the story of the woman who lost the coin being used as a vehicle for this one, as well.
But, here's food for thought: If the abundant life referenced in John 10:10 is, in fact, something spiritual in nature, what was it Wierwille supposedly saw in the "unbelievers" that he perceived as "abundance"?
Waysider......very good question to ask.
Like many aspects of pfal, I see this as another flaw in wierwille's performance in spiritual matters and a peek behind the curtain. The premise of his "observation" was NOT spiritual in nature.....it was material abundance. Wierwille had blurred the two together in his own mind and blurted it forth while filming his pfal class. Perhaps, he did this intentionally to set the stage for his "law of believing?" A strong possibility, for sure.
Along with other stories or acts of plagairism.....wierwille was rarely critiqued and got away with such inconsistencies. After all, who was going to correct or confront the man of God on his error? Clearly, many saw these discrepancies and even urged the remake of his foundational class [in PFAL '77], but that class had more blunders and inconsistencies that the original. So, the teacher-with-the-skinny-tie class had to endure into the 80s.
Another sneak peek in pfal of wierwille's theology......"every woman in the kingdom belongs to the king." Isn't it amazing to review the pfal class material backdrop after now seeing how vpw's performance on the twi stage played out before our very eyes?
i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.
Quote
VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.
so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.
He didn't destroy me. I remember reading the section on twi in that stupid 'Mindbenders' book. The guy says, "if VP sells his class for 100 dollars to ten thousand people, then he makes 1 million dollars" or something like that. Whoopie, the guy knows how to use a calculator! Like I said, everybody uses money. If that guy sells his Mindbenders book for 5 dollars to 200,000 people, then HE makes a million dollars, too. So what.
So you think God DOES want people to be poor and sick? No, I won't even consider that.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
5
6
11
18
Popular Days
Jan 18
17
Jan 16
14
Jan 17
13
Jan 15
10
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 5 posts
johniam 6 posts
Ham 11 posts
waysider 18 posts
Popular Days
Jan 18 2011
17 posts
Jan 16 2011
14 posts
Jan 17 2011
13 posts
Jan 15 2011
10 posts
Popular Posts
waysider
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Herr Victoid, son of Erma, son of Ernst, brother of Rueben, brother of Hairylegs, father of J.P. Puffenstuff , grandfather of the anointed messiah who wil
shazdancer
The "abundant life" was the carrot before the horse. We were drawn in with the promise of power and abundance. Those were synonymous with the list on the green card, "more harmony in the home," and
Keith
While I think TWI ended up teaching as you said. I didn't have a problem with this statment, because in fact it was often true. Many Christian groups taught on the evils of riches and the value of poverty and how wonderful it was for God to teach you through illness and how you are supposed to bear the weight of the world. Most the people I meet who openly proffessed to be Christians in the sixties and seventies were almost exactly like VPW discribed them in the Class. In fact TWI was the first place I heard that it was necessary for a Christian to be poor. Then of course TWI begain turning people into exactly that, poor, rundown, often unhappy Christians who lived in fear of their leadership and often of God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
So, then, how does that align itself with the teachings that said the abundant life was spiritual in nature? Here, in session #1, he's promoting it, in part, as material abundance. Later, that definition fell by the wayside.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
true christians are often not materially abundant or even in health and mind abundant, but they are abundant in the fruit of the spirit. anybody wanna bet that this is what jesus meant?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I have no idea what it really means. In fact, if you look at the context here, abundance isn't the focal point, anyhow. But, here's food for thought: If the abundant life referenced in John 10:10 is, in fact, something spiritual in nature, what was it Wierwille supposedly saw in the "unbelievers" that he perceived as "abundance"?
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
The business acumen of wierwille perceived that "material abundance" and "spiritual abundance" were blood brothers of wealthy parents.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
that says almost everything, doesn't it?
maybe he wasn't "plodding ahead with the things of God"..
soo... what then. he then makes a deal with some "entity" to give him a multi-level marketing scheme, not as it had been known since the first century..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
if you don't mind me saying..
da *miracle* came cheap.
I mean, if one lives in Michigan.. it has not been unknown to snow in June..
it even snows in Hell, in Michigan..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Herr Victoid, son of Erma, son of Ernst, brother of Rueben, brother of Hairylegs, father of J.P. Puffenstuff , grandfather of the anointed messiah who will come to be known as Victoid Jr., and kin to the Wierwillonians of Hoopyville. Thus saith the Lord, "Victoid, bring me 6 faithful followers who will bring in 66 more faithful followers who will bring in 666 more faithful followers, etc. etc., etc. (Thou gettest thine picture.) and the snow gates of Heaven will burst forth with a black snow such as has n'er been seen since the last time black snow was seen. And upon thy petroleum distillate dispensing alters, I , the Lord of MLM, will reveal myself."
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
looks like snow scheduled there Monday..
http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/weatherInfo.php?locIndex=55275
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
VP was not giving a blanket judgement on all Christianity; his alternative if he couldn't have an abundant life was to get out of the ministry and quit promoting something he himself couldn't live. Perhaps he figured that the verse where Jesus said "he that is unfaithful in that which is least is also unfaithful in that which is much" applied here. That "that which is least" is financial abundance and "that which is much" is spiritual abundance, fruit of the spirit.
Many unbelievers shun any religion which keeps people poor. VP was just trying to be honest. As for what constitutes material or spiritual abundance? Dictionary defines abundance as having full sufficiency. Having something to give (or not give) beyond what you need. Paul said he received an abundance of revelation in the thorn in the flesh section (2 Cor. 12). Jesus said a man's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses (Luke 12:15). Some religious people are always trying to put down rich people. They claim to be morally superior, but it's just envy. Being rich is just a tool, a menu item, something that can be used to the help or hurt of whoever is rich. It doesn't make anyone's life better in and of itself. Rich people may have more things than regular people, but they also have more headaches. It's not worth envying.
VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
So what was this "abundance" he saw "unbelievers" manifesting that he, himself, wanted?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think if you will allow yourself to look at this honestly, you will see that it was really a form of bait and switch.
First, he reeled suckers into the class with the lure of an abundance that he CLEARLY portrayed as being material in nature. Then, he switched the definition when people started to question his promises.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I think I AM being honest. Everybody uses money; not just the "suckers".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I'm not talking about using money, am I?
I'm talking about using people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Wierwille builds his case in pfal.....destroyed for "lack of knowledge," not rightly-dividing the Word of God, and NOT operating the manifestations of the spirit.
Yet, throughout his ministry.....plodding ahead with the things of God, sermon after sermon. Where was the demonstrated power? Where were the healings via the man of God? Where was indisputable revelation to thwart the attacks of the adversary (devil)?
In retrospect, the trustees were plodding along and promoting the classes, programs, and machinery of the ministry. And, by the mid-80s.....everything had regressed back to blindly following leadership and plodding in the same rut. Walking with power, walking with "all 9 (manifestations) all the time" was replaced by "The Word is the ministry and the ministry is the Word." In the mid-90s......the terminology was hyped as "the prevailing word."
Shell game semantics.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Wierwille said he lacked the abundance he saw unbelievers manifesting. Did these unbelievers have "the rightly divided word"? Did they "speak in tongues much"? Did they operate "all 9, all the time"? Maybe he should have followed the example of the unbelievers and gotten a real, honest-to-goodness job.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
The only answer I can come up with is what my WOW coordinator told us WOWs. Life with the manifestations is the abundant life. But then, that doesn't fit because not all Christians manifest.
My personal opinion: it was purposely sold as physical abundance to attract people, then once snared, they changed the definition. Put simply, the abundant life is a scam.
I mean, whenever da vey needed more ABS they had you turn to Malachi, where it says the windows of heaven will open and pour you out a blessing your stores won't be able to contain. After ABS for a year about 25 years ago I can tell you I'm still waiting to see that.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
just tagging on here -- don't want to start a thread
my mom and i were talking yesterday about jews and she felt so bad about people saying it never happened
i told her about the book in the way book store -- the myth -- she said oh that makes sense -- his name wierwille -- and him being a cult leader and all
it's funny she's the only one in my family who took the class because i begged her to
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
The "abundant life" was the carrot before the horse. We were drawn in with the promise of power and abundance. Those were synonymous with the list on the green card, "more harmony in the home," and the like. Doctor said something like, "Ask any businessman, he knows what prosperity is." Power was supposed to be in positive believing, faith v. fear, etc. Get what you want -- the red drapes on the windows.
When VPW originally taught PFAL, he taught all nine manifestations -- the fullness of spiritual power, or so we were taught. But by the time we baby boomers got into it, there were 3 classes that were supposed to teach you enough to manifest "all nine all the time." Session 12 makes you think like you've got a hotline to God. Now some prayers are gonna get answered! But we needed more classes to get to the other 8. And more classes meant more money, and more time spent in TWI.
Twig, abundant sharing, class, Twig, abundant sharing, class, WOW, more Twig, more classes, Corps. All designed to relieve us of our free labor and money. And slowly, we were taught what to want.
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.
so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yes, it was frequently taught in twigs and branches that "least" meant material things and "much" meant spiritual things. It was used in a number of ways. One way was that if you weren't faithful enough to ABS (least) you couldn't be counted on to be faithful with spiritual (much) things. Another way it was used was to say that if you didn't pay attention to minute details (material things),such as when setting up a class, God would not entrust you with revelation (spiritual things).
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Here again we see the carrot on a stick. It was used to coerce people into abundantly sharing money and volunteering their labors. In reality, it isn't much different than "buying favors from God", is it?
edit: I seem to remember hearing the story of the woman who lost the coin being used as a vehicle for this one, as well.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Waysider......very good question to ask.
Like many aspects of pfal, I see this as another flaw in wierwille's performance in spiritual matters and a peek behind the curtain. The premise of his "observation" was NOT spiritual in nature.....it was material abundance. Wierwille had blurred the two together in his own mind and blurted it forth while filming his pfal class. Perhaps, he did this intentionally to set the stage for his "law of believing?" A strong possibility, for sure.
Along with other stories or acts of plagairism.....wierwille was rarely critiqued and got away with such inconsistencies. After all, who was going to correct or confront the man of God on his error? Clearly, many saw these discrepancies and even urged the remake of his foundational class [in PFAL '77], but that class had more blunders and inconsistencies that the original. So, the teacher-with-the-skinny-tie class had to endure into the 80s.
Another sneak peek in pfal of wierwille's theology......"every woman in the kingdom belongs to the king." Isn't it amazing to review the pfal class material backdrop after now seeing how vpw's performance on the twi stage played out before our very eyes?
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote:
i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.
Quote
VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.
so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.
****************************************************************************************
He didn't destroy me. I remember reading the section on twi in that stupid 'Mindbenders' book. The guy says, "if VP sells his class for 100 dollars to ten thousand people, then he makes 1 million dollars" or something like that. Whoopie, the guy knows how to use a calculator! Like I said, everybody uses money. If that guy sells his Mindbenders book for 5 dollars to 200,000 people, then HE makes a million dollars, too. So what.
So you think God DOES want people to be poor and sick? No, I won't even consider that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.