I attended some of the CFFM fellowships, both local and in Tipp City, in the early 2000's before my health went too seriously bad.
Something to remember was John Shroyer was born and raised in twi. In those earlier days it was more innocent and loving in God. Fellowships and the people were sweet on each other and it seemed little miracles happened all the time. the smiles on peoples faces were very real.
I got in '73 and listened to tapes from '71 & '72 wherein veepee would open a research sunday night on a biblical subject with walter cummins and a dozen books around him. He encouraged people to work it and write what they found back in to hq. I remember a number of times in those early days he gave credit to those men he learned from. Their memories faded only after the ministry grew larger than he knew to handle.
(I guess too many pretty young ladies addled his brain.)
What I am saying is the early ministry was wonderful in many ways, that is what captured our hearts and minds. then it shifted from love and grace subtly into the law and central domination.
Though I didn't know John Shroyer very well, he knew me and usually knew what I was up to. He was a kind man ready to help anyone he could. When I heard about CFFM I was wary of course, having suffered a typical '90s twi send off. So I asked some questions.
John and his small crew determined if they were to start another ministry, it was to be based on the old days when it was grounded in love and grace.
Second, financially, it was to run or fail based on the principals of George Mueller. Georges' rule one was he never asked anyone for one red cent, but rather to rely on prayer and God get him what he needed when he needed it. For those not familiar with George Mueller, he ran several orphanages in England in the 1800's. Many times breakfast arrived as the orphans sat down to eat. George was a master servant of a miraclous God.
John wanted to be like George was. Things happened rapidly getting land and a small church built. By the time they got it built, it was already too small. It seated maybe 60 -70 and another 80 -100 in the basement, but we made do. They never asked for donations for anything while I listened to them by tape for 3 -4 years. The tapes were free to anyone who asked.
At a sunday meeting they would pass the hat. But the teaching was they taught the tithe because scripture did and that said scripture said it needed to be from a cheerful giver.
If you can't give it cheerfully, it better to not give.
Remember, all the early folk had just been burned by the previous ministry and insisted certain questions be answered about CFFM doctrine compared to recent twi insanities.
(I'm getting too tired, I need to rest, but I'll give one example:)
(Remember, Waydale and Greasespot were both well known by most CFFM'ers.)
The biggest issue had to do with the sexual abuse in twi. When talking to John or other leaders, they said it was wrong and they were against it. One Sunday they they made it official by announcing it as official CFF policy at the podium. They said scripturally, sex is reserved only to married people, and that was CFFM's stance on it.
I was there that day and quite pleased. After that my health failed. Thru their free newsletteres and tapes, I kept up for a while but lost touch after having to move back home. I know they have grown quite a bit and added some classes. You pay for the classes but if I remember right, the tapes are yours to keep.
My memories of CFF are good, about loving people trying to return to the ministry of grace and love and sweet little miracles, and when you and God were good friends.
But apart from (possibly) funding their own events - does anyone know of what CFFM might do with its funds to help the wider community?
Do they contribute to local initiatives for homeless, to provide meals at the soup kitchen, to help fellow non-CFFM Christians? Do they support locals who have had emergencies - support in case some local carpenter was injured and unable to work; a woman whose husband had deserted her and the kids; a family where a child had been hospitalized a long way away? Do they use the funds to help at the local hospital, at the night shelter, kids' club, or anything else?
Do they support their own members who might have trouble? A sudden emergency - a vital piece of household equipment breaks down - a tree crashes through the roof - a family member overseas is in desperate trouble - or even just - an individual simply cannot make ends meet despite all reasonable budgeting?
Does CFFM share funds out - does it have it all "in common" or it is - you share with me, and I'll guard it from everyone?
There may be publicly-accessible accounts somewhere that are available. And there will be some here who have experience with CFFM.
Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves.
Again, this info is 8 to 11 years old and may or may not currently apply to CFFM. In the late 90's CFF was brand new in a small town in western
Ohio.
Twinky wondered about CFF and the wider community. They started out by renting a closed church building until they built their own. And they had joined the local church organization and were actively involved in church community activities. They wanted to be on a good relationship with their fellow christian neighbors.
John Shroyer, native born to western Ohio, wanted to be active with his local community.
I did hear a few stories of CFF helping someone who had a need. One family had a member with some serious health problem, and CFF bought them a new minivan so they could get around.
Again, when I first went, CFF was maybe two years old, and maybe 3-400 people. When I faded away, it was 4-5 years old and had 800 subscribers to it's sunday tapes. They were still a young organization and trying to figure things out. Also they were growing very fast, taking in many of the walking wounded of twi.
Anyway a few more twi curioddities;
In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege.
In the early days, when abs was local I did hear of a few little financial assistances when a believer had need. nothing big, but then we were all young semi-hippies and had little we needed at the time.
A funny thing happened on the way to TWI's self destruction. Apparently a part of Geer's godification of the patriarch for personal use, abuse, and self gratification was abs should have been to help believers. Twi announced it would use some abs to help those with need. (At least to the IRS max of $3000 per individual.) Our branch lesder filed for a single mom who's young son had broken a leg and she recieved the $3000. By the time she got the money, the program was already gone.
"In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege."
When I took the class in 1972, the Way Tree structure was already solidly in place. (branches and limbs). We were instructed to never use the ABS for local needs. We weren't even allowed to use money from the ABS to buy the stamps to send it to HQ. Maybe other people's experiences had to do with geography. I don't really know. That's my personal experience of that period of time.
edit:
And we were forbidden from doing things like bake sales and car washes to provide for local needs, such as hall rentals. I think this was supposed to be based on the George Mueller idea that God would be the sole source to supply your needs. Or, perhaps, that's the image Wierwille wanted to convey to the public.
What that did, in reality, was to create an atmosphere of codependency. (Some people are givers and some people are takers) I never really saw that aspect of it very clearly until I went into fellowlaborers of Ohio. In that program, with 50 people living in close quarters, it was quite apparent. I think one's memories (ie: fuzzy feelings) of the FLO program may be related to where one stood in the codependency queue.
The biggest issue had to do with the sexual abuse in twi. When talking to John or other leaders, they said it was wrong and they were against it. One Sunday they they made it official by announcing it as official CFF policy at the podium. They said scripturally, sex is reserved only to married people, and that was CFFM's stance on it.
I was there that day and quite pleased.
There was lots of foot-dragging by John and Wayne on the wierwille sexual abuse issue. They had a dilemma on their hands......in trying to recreate a "good ole days twi" in cff, waydale and greasespot were posting threads on wierwille's predation and scores of other destructive ways.
It was F3rne Cl4pp who told those men to STOP DITHERING AND ADDRESS IT.
And again.....my respect for these men dropped a few notches. Just seemed like there was lots of back-scratching and politicking going on in twi's "good ole boys club." Plus, you don't want to defame the wierwille name.....keep pouring on the nostalgia. Not only does it "help" way-faring followers, but its comforting to those who stood with wierwille all those years. Win-win.
Guess I'm the type of person who doesn't like sugar-coating. I want to sit at the table and talk to the adults. These people were my peers......not my leaders.
You know, I live in an area where there was a "group" from the 1970's .....Brotherhood of the Spirit....they were written about in Look magazine. They had a leader, Rapunzel (Michael Metelica), and they all lived communally. They had their own publications issued from their "Free Spirit Press". Elwood Babbit, a farmer, was their spiritual guru and they listened to him. They had Festivals...Harry Chapin came once and played at one of their festivals. I was too young to attend and was pretty upset about it.
A few still do live there at the lodge which they turned it into apartments. It is called the Renaissance Community. Some built houses on the property.... I am friends with most of them. Nicest people you ever want to meet. I love them all.
Dabobbada's post could have been written by any of them. Change the names, slap in a few details and it is about the same story. Love, smiles, "spirituality" peace...and remembered good old early days until it went "bad". It all fell somewhat apart with the leaders drug use and outrageous promiscuity. As peoples kids, especially the girls, grew up, they had to keep Rapunzel at arms length.
When Rapunzel died of CANCER only a hard core few remained. They regrouped and guess what, they STILL have classes teaching their faith, they STILL promote a certain mindset...that we are all God, and they still deal with life according to a certain set of "Principles".
Recently there was a documentary made about this "cult" from the 1970's and sure enough, when speaking with them...they all began waxing nostalgic for the good old days when they saw the miracles, Rapunzel was teaching good things, and the love flowed. The documentary is called Free Spirits, the birth, life, and loss of a New Age dream. Check it out and see if there are not parallels. http://www.acornprod...
IT WAS THE 1970's and groups like this were everywhere! Lot's of "love", and little miracles flowed....TWI was not some special ministry from God...it was a direct result of the times and some guy who cashed in on them. It is just special because it was "our" little cult.
Oh, I once had a long talk with one of them about spirituality. It was a one sided conversation because he had all the answers and of course knew all about my faith. The whole time, I kept thinking about how we were in TWI...it was so eerie and familiar. I can't help it...whenever I see him coming now, I think to myself, oops here comes "God". Nice guy, he surprised me recently with a load of gravel for a rut in my driveway. Good man...but, he still has all the answers and everyone else is mislead.
...whenever I see him coming now, I think to myself, oops here comes "God". Nice guy, he surprised me recently with a load of gravel for a rut in my driveway. Good man...but, he still has all the answers and everyone else is mislead.
And that sums up quite a bit about most ministry leaders, offshoots, and church pastors.. No, not all, but a good majority.
Not to pass blame, since I also acted the same when in TWI. I remember a number of good ol' witnessing adventures thinking I had the answers. But I'm glad to say now, I don't, and honestly, I don't care to have all the answers, I got better things to do than try and put the whole world into this box called my brain.
quote: The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil.
Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you?
In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused? For example, Joseph being lied about by Potiphar's wife, one of the first sexual predators identified in scripture, who tried to seduce Joseph and, when spurned, falsely accused him of trying to rape her, and subsequently causing him to spend 10 plus years in prison. No laundry list about her life. No mention of how she may have done this serially with every other household steward Potiphar hired. Nothing like that; just that God eventually made the situation right.
Another who did evil to God's people was king Ahaz, Hezekiah's predecessor, who screwed up so bad that when Hezekiah took over as king he had to literally break open the door to the house of the Lord so the priests could follow the law. As with most kings of Israel and Judah, Ahaz was noted for whether or not he had prepared his heart to seek the Lord, and some of his screw ups were mentioned, but after he wasn't king anymore, nothing. Just, again, that through Hezekiah's meekness, God could make a lot of things right.
God is a God of deliverance. You mentioned earlier that because of VP you will never be interested in belonging to a church or to a ministry again. I guess if you've given up on God what else is there to do but vent?
What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there.
OK lets you and me go back to the 5th grade; diagramming sentences. This involves naming the part of speech of every word in the sentence. I found this training to be an invaluable aid when retemorizing.
The entire sentence is - God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church.
God is a noun, and the subject of the sentence. 'Has' is an auxilliary verb. 'Delegated' is a verb, paired with has, being the predicate of the sentence. 'The' is a definite article. 'Responsibility' is a noun and the object of the sentence. The remaining words in the sentence are two prepositional phrases, one of which modifies the word responsibility, and the other of which modifies the word delegated. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd rendered the sentence - God has delegated to the church the responsibility of reconciling men unto God. Sorry about that.
In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused? For example, Joseph being lied about by Potiphar's wife, one of the first sexual predators identified in scripture, who tried to seduce Joseph and, when spurned, falsely accused him of trying to rape her, and subsequently causing him to spend 10 plus years in prison. No laundry list about her life. No mention of how she may have done this serially with every other household steward Potiphar hired. Nothing like that; just that God eventually made the situation right.
If I understand your (diversonal) point correctly, here, you're implying that because these "laundry lists" aren't to be found in the Bible, we should, likewise, refrain from talking about the shortcomings of various so-called leaders. Guess what? These aren't Biblical times. This is real life in the 21st century. When leaders make unethical decisions, they open themselves to criticism from the congregation. That's how it should be. Checks and balances. If you really want to do something productive, sift through the scriptures for instructions detailing how the church's checks and balances system is supposed to function. There is plenty there to be found. It doesn't include sweeping bad behavior under the carpet or diverting attention away from genuine problems in an effort to protect the image of whoever your MOG of choice happens to be.
quote: The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil.
Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you?
In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused?
So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument. Sorry, won't wash.
Slander? You haven't been doing your homework. Most of what you call slander can be backed up by witnesses on this site. Truth is the defense for an accusation of slander.
Also, if you truely believe God is a god of deliverence, what's your beef? I mean by informing people of what Saint Vic and the Craigmeister did, we're preventing them from going through the pain we did, and therefore delivering God's people (doing God's work)
Saint Vic on the other hand put people into bondage (seducing, raping, manipulating)(doing the devil's work)
So, your beef again is...?
In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused?
In Acts, God did warn Paul not to go to Rome: He did it first directly, then through sisters prophesying, then he had another man of God come and literally tie Paul up. Well, think of TWI as Rome, people listening to my message as Paul, and me--well, I guess I'm the person tying them up, ain't I?
According to th IRS, yes it IS CFFMs money. Jesus, Paul, and Peter never had to deal with the IRS. The closest example I can think of in scripture is when the Romans wanted tribute money at Capernaum (Matt.17:24-27) According to Bishop Pillai, the fish had a piece of money in its mouth that was sufficient.
The manna was no good because if they ate it they'd get sick because of the worms. The money was still legal tender therefore it was still good. That analogy is just another morally superior platitude with no basis in fact or reality.
*I* did not veer this thread off course. Look at my first post. Look at some of the responses to it. There's your problem.
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?
Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.
Sleep it off and LOOK at what I actually posted. I did not say "Christian bigot", I said CHRISTIANITY bigot. He is, IMO, a liberal who is a bigot who targets Christianity. There. That spell it out for you?
According to th IRS, yes it IS CFFMs money. Jesus, Paul, and Peter never had to deal with the IRS. The closest example I can think of in scripture is when the Romans wanted tribute money at Capernaum (Matt.17:24-27) According to Bishop Pillai, the fish had a piece of money in its mouth that was sufficient.
Because the Roman legions collecting taxes at the time just would tremble in fear at the thought of an IRS auditor with his pencil protectors. :blink:
I didn't know God worked for Internal Revenue. I didn't know God even recognized the Internal Revenue.
Here's where your making your error on this: physically yes it is their money, but spiritually...ahh spiritually there's the rub.
So you argue from physical plane and some one else argues from a spiritual plane you accuse them of being morally superior. The obvious answer is argue from a spiritual plane yourself.
Example, spiritual plane: we on nothing in this world its all on loan, so the Internal Revenue can argue whatever they want, God gets the last word.
OK lets you and me go back to the 5th grade; diagramming sentences. This involves naming the part of speech of every word in the sentence. I found this training to be an invaluable aid when retemorizing.
The entire sentence is - God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church.
God is a noun, and the subject of the sentence. 'Has' is an auxilliary verb. 'Delegated' is a verb, paired with has, being the predicate of the sentence. 'The' is a definite article. 'Responsibility' is a noun and the object of the sentence. The remaining words in the sentence are two prepositional phrases, one of which modifies the word responsibility, and the other of which modifies the word delegated. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd rendered the sentence - God has delegated to the church the responsibility of reconciling men unto God. Sorry about that.
Wow - that was sufficiently condescending. With skills and an attitude like that, you're wasting your time here. You could be climbing the ranks of TWI, smooching the right booties, abusing the right underlings. Or maybe you already are.
But since you're straining at gnats here, I'll just point out that the word "delegated" is nowhere to be found anywhere near that verse in the Bible. The difference between "delegated" and "given" is a wide difference, and the choice of that substitution really shows a legalistic and hierarchy-of-power slant in interpretation.
At any rate, the point I was making about the above is a common misconception. You have egotistical tyrants all promoting themselves and building their little man-made political hierarchies all in the name of "reconciling men unto God". The relationship between God and man is a personal one through Jesus Christ. If you bring a man to know God through Jesus Christ it really has nothing to do with bringing them to a church, a denomination, a fellowship. People read into that all the time. That's what I was referring to as a confusion of destination. That verse does not hold the intent to have Christians 2000 years later using it as justification to build their own Towers of Babel.
There is plenty there to be found. It doesn't include sweeping bad behavior under the carpet or diverting attention away from genuine problems in an effort to protect the image of whoever your MOG of choice happens to be.
Just as a sidelight, I happened upon this Letter yesterday, to a higher up in the Episcopal Church from the House of Bishops.
Bear in mind that this Leader is NOT accused of sexual abuse, but knowing about ONE case and not doing anything about it(sweeping one case under the rug).
I thought that the stark juxtapostion between TWI and the genuine concern and care of a christian organization was very striking and and moving to see how it can be handled
"We exhort Charles, our brother in Christ, in the strongest possible terms, to tender his immediate and unconditional resignation as the Bishop of the Diocese of Pennsylvania."
[september 21, 2010] The House of Bishop of The Episcopal Church, meeting in Phoenix, AZ, approved the following resolution:
Grace to you and peace in Jesus Christ our Lord. As the bishops of The Episcopal Church, bound by solemn vows to share in the governance of the whole church, guard its unity, and defend those who have no helper, we are committed to safeguarding the dignity of every person entrusted to our care. We are devoted especially to the care of the young, the weak, and those most vulnerable among us. Because of the depth of these commitments, long held among us, we are profoundly troubled by the outcome of the disciplinary action against the Bishop of the Diocese of Pennsylvania, The Right Reverend Charles E. Bennison, Jr.
In a lengthy judicial process Bishop Bennison was found guilty on two counts of conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy during a lengthy judicial process. Subsequently, the Court of Review reversed one count, upheld one count, but vacated the sentence because the statute of limitations had expired. We respect the decision of the Court of Review and we share their disappointment and find the ultimate resolution of this matter unsatisfactory and morally repugnant.
The wholly inadequate response of our brother bishop to the sexual assault upon a minor is an inexcusable violation of his ordination vows. We note here two excerpts from the decisions of the ecclesiastical court:
The tragedy of this conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy is exacerbated by the fact that, during the trial of the case, Appellant testified that, upon reflection on his failure to act, he concludes that his actions were "just about right." They were not just about right. They were totally wrong. Appellant's testimony on this subject revealed impaired judgment with regard to the conduct that is the subject of the First Offence and that is clearly and unequivocally conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy. (Court of Review, page 25).
... we find that Appellant committed conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy. Because the statute of limitations has run on that offense, we have no choice under the canons of the Church but to reverse the judgment of the Trial Court finding that Appellant is guilty of conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy . . . (Court of Review, page 38).
The bishops of this church stand in unequivocal solidarity with anyone who has been sexually abused or mistreated by a member of our clergy or by any member of our church. We apologize, out of the depths of God's compassion for every human being, to the woman who has been victimized by Bishop Bennison's lack of responsible action, and to all those who have in any way been hurt by our church. We are deeply sorry and we are committed to consistent discipline for those who bring shame upon the Body of Christ by sinful, demeaning, and selfish behavior that takes from another human being their God-given dignity.
As the House of Bishops, we have come to the conclusion that Bishop Bennison's capacity to exercise the ministry of pastoral oversight is irretrievably damaged. Therefore, we exhort Charles, our brother in Christ, in the strongest possible terms, to tender his immediate and unconditional resignation as the Bishop of the Diocese of Pennsylvania. For the sake of the wholeness and unity of the body of Christ, in the Diocese of Pennsylvania and in the church, we implore our brother to take this action without further delay.
This matter has weighed heavily upon the hearts of every member of the House of Bishops and it has been held in prayer not only among us, but by the good and faithful clergy and people of our church. We will continue to pray for Charles, his family, and every person who has been hurt by the church. We pledge to continue to seek God's guidance and we resolve to lead our church with compassion, justice, and mercy.
Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd rendered the sentence - God has delegated to the church the responsibility of reconciling men unto God.
You know, this probably should go into "Theological/Doctrinal".
But just as an FYI, God does the reconciling,not us. What God has "given" is the good news, the words, the opportunity to serve in sharing the good news that God has reconciled the world unto Himself through His Son..
You and I are only ambassadors. Those who share the good news. Not the ones who actually "reconcile men to God".. God already wants to reconcile, and any willing person that comes to Him is reconciled, but you and I are just there to share the news and help point the way if they willing want to go and reconcile.. If you want to call that help, reconciling, well, it's your business.
And in just that, some feel they ought to be paid to share the good news.. Sure.. Go be a sale person. Have fun selling those newspapers, classes, and magazine subscriptions.. For the most part, they're preaching to the choir. TWI and exTWI folks. Heck, most churches. If people were actually giving money to help the sharing of the good news, they ought to give it to those who ain't sitting in their nice little enclave and groupie friends, but rather is out there amongst those who have never heard of Christ and what God has done. Else.. Well, waisted money. Trying to convince people their egocentric view is better than the last.
quote: The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil.
Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you?
On the contrary John, scripture does agree with me.
Refresh my memory: how many times did Jesus warn people about the Pharisees? How many times did he confront the Pharisees and remind them who and what they were?
Strange you would mention the Old Testement and forget the Gospels. Selective amnesia?
Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you?
if it makes any difference, I didn't slander anyone here.
Maybe you need to define the term "slander".
slander is slander, if it is not based in fact.
Now, as far as CFF is concerned.. outside of some doctrinal differences. I really have no charge to lay here.. or if I could rephrase it.. they haven't given me a reason to lay any charge.
My take on it.. they at best TOLERATE being associated with the victoid's name.
If they start building shrines, memorial gardens, rock gardens.. groves to herr vicmeister, we might have to REALLY part company..
a couple of their affiliates have. Well.. CFF itself, I can't say I know what they've done for the last two years. I hope not building shrines..
At this point.. I don't see them being any different than another church..
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chockfull
You know, I knew Wayne, and Kevin both back in their TWI days. They actually both were pretty decent guys for the most part. And Jon N3ssle too. I think Jon got scrwd over by Okus Lecherous Rantus
mstar1
A way offshoot actually doing something? I'd like to hear otherwise,that theyre out building hospitals, schools or curing aids or something but its not very likely from any group that still reveres W
Broken Arrow
That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shou
dabobbada
I attended some of the CFFM fellowships, both local and in Tipp City, in the early 2000's before my health went too seriously bad.
Something to remember was John Shroyer was born and raised in twi. In those earlier days it was more innocent and loving in God. Fellowships and the people were sweet on each other and it seemed little miracles happened all the time. the smiles on peoples faces were very real.
I got in '73 and listened to tapes from '71 & '72 wherein veepee would open a research sunday night on a biblical subject with walter cummins and a dozen books around him. He encouraged people to work it and write what they found back in to hq. I remember a number of times in those early days he gave credit to those men he learned from. Their memories faded only after the ministry grew larger than he knew to handle.
(I guess too many pretty young ladies addled his brain.)
What I am saying is the early ministry was wonderful in many ways, that is what captured our hearts and minds. then it shifted from love and grace subtly into the law and central domination.
Though I didn't know John Shroyer very well, he knew me and usually knew what I was up to. He was a kind man ready to help anyone he could. When I heard about CFFM I was wary of course, having suffered a typical '90s twi send off. So I asked some questions.
John and his small crew determined if they were to start another ministry, it was to be based on the old days when it was grounded in love and grace.
Second, financially, it was to run or fail based on the principals of George Mueller. Georges' rule one was he never asked anyone for one red cent, but rather to rely on prayer and God get him what he needed when he needed it. For those not familiar with George Mueller, he ran several orphanages in England in the 1800's. Many times breakfast arrived as the orphans sat down to eat. George was a master servant of a miraclous God.
John wanted to be like George was. Things happened rapidly getting land and a small church built. By the time they got it built, it was already too small. It seated maybe 60 -70 and another 80 -100 in the basement, but we made do. They never asked for donations for anything while I listened to them by tape for 3 -4 years. The tapes were free to anyone who asked.
At a sunday meeting they would pass the hat. But the teaching was they taught the tithe because scripture did and that said scripture said it needed to be from a cheerful giver.
If you can't give it cheerfully, it better to not give.
Remember, all the early folk had just been burned by the previous ministry and insisted certain questions be answered about CFFM doctrine compared to recent twi insanities.
(I'm getting too tired, I need to rest, but I'll give one example:)
(Remember, Waydale and Greasespot were both well known by most CFFM'ers.)
The biggest issue had to do with the sexual abuse in twi. When talking to John or other leaders, they said it was wrong and they were against it. One Sunday they they made it official by announcing it as official CFF policy at the podium. They said scripturally, sex is reserved only to married people, and that was CFFM's stance on it.
I was there that day and quite pleased. After that my health failed. Thru their free newsletteres and tapes, I kept up for a while but lost touch after having to move back home. I know they have grown quite a bit and added some classes. You pay for the classes but if I remember right, the tapes are yours to keep.
My memories of CFF are good, about loving people trying to return to the ministry of grace and love and sweet little miracles, and when you and God were good friends.
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Broken Arrow
Sorry you're not feeling well. Hope you feel better soon dabob.
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OldSkool
Thanks for the post!
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dabobbada
Thank you, Broken Arrow and Old Skool
In Twinky's origional topic, she said:
Again, this info is 8 to 11 years old and may or may not currently apply to CFFM. In the late 90's CFF was brand new in a small town in western
Ohio.
Twinky wondered about CFF and the wider community. They started out by renting a closed church building until they built their own. And they had joined the local church organization and were actively involved in church community activities. They wanted to be on a good relationship with their fellow christian neighbors.
John Shroyer, native born to western Ohio, wanted to be active with his local community.
I did hear a few stories of CFF helping someone who had a need. One family had a member with some serious health problem, and CFF bought them a new minivan so they could get around.
Again, when I first went, CFF was maybe two years old, and maybe 3-400 people. When I faded away, it was 4-5 years old and had 800 subscribers to it's sunday tapes. They were still a young organization and trying to figure things out. Also they were growing very fast, taking in many of the walking wounded of twi.
Anyway a few more twi curioddities;
In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege.
In the early days, when abs was local I did hear of a few little financial assistances when a believer had need. nothing big, but then we were all young semi-hippies and had little we needed at the time.
A funny thing happened on the way to TWI's self destruction. Apparently a part of Geer's godification of the patriarch for personal use, abuse, and self gratification was abs should have been to help believers. Twi announced it would use some abs to help those with need. (At least to the IRS max of $3000 per individual.) Our branch lesder filed for a single mom who's young son had broken a leg and she recieved the $3000. By the time she got the money, the program was already gone.
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waysider
"In '73 and '74 even before there were official branches and limbs, the area leader kept the abs for a month and then turned it in to the limb leader. Said limb leader then kept it also for a month before turning it in to hq. If either the area or limb leader needed something that month, the cost came out of the abs. My area leader needed some tires because he traveled a lot to care for his people so that was taken frrom the abs. Somewhere in '74-5 hq called all abs directly in to hq because they said some were abusing the privilege."
...........................................................................
When I took the class in 1972, the Way Tree structure was already solidly in place. (branches and limbs). We were instructed to never use the ABS for local needs. We weren't even allowed to use money from the ABS to buy the stamps to send it to HQ. Maybe other people's experiences had to do with geography. I don't really know. That's my personal experience of that period of time.
edit:
And we were forbidden from doing things like bake sales and car washes to provide for local needs, such as hall rentals. I think this was supposed to be based on the George Mueller idea that God would be the sole source to supply your needs. Or, perhaps, that's the image Wierwille wanted to convey to the public.
What that did, in reality, was to create an atmosphere of codependency. (Some people are givers and some people are takers) I never really saw that aspect of it very clearly until I went into fellowlaborers of Ohio. In that program, with 50 people living in close quarters, it was quite apparent. I think one's memories (ie: fuzzy feelings) of the FLO program may be related to where one stood in the codependency queue.
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skyrider
There was lots of foot-dragging by John and Wayne on the wierwille sexual abuse issue. They had a dilemma on their hands......in trying to recreate a "good ole days twi" in cff, waydale and greasespot were posting threads on wierwille's predation and scores of other destructive ways.
It was F3rne Cl4pp who told those men to STOP DITHERING AND ADDRESS IT.
And again.....my respect for these men dropped a few notches. Just seemed like there was lots of back-scratching and politicking going on in twi's "good ole boys club." Plus, you don't want to defame the wierwille name.....keep pouring on the nostalgia. Not only does it "help" way-faring followers, but its comforting to those who stood with wierwille all those years. Win-win.
Guess I'm the type of person who doesn't like sugar-coating. I want to sit at the table and talk to the adults. These people were my peers......not my leaders.
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geisha779
I too hope you feel better Dabobbada
You know, I live in an area where there was a "group" from the 1970's .....Brotherhood of the Spirit....they were written about in Look magazine. They had a leader, Rapunzel (Michael Metelica), and they all lived communally. They had their own publications issued from their "Free Spirit Press". Elwood Babbit, a farmer, was their spiritual guru and they listened to him. They had Festivals...Harry Chapin came once and played at one of their festivals. I was too young to attend and was pretty upset about it.
A few still do live there at the lodge which they turned it into apartments. It is called the Renaissance Community. Some built houses on the property.... I am friends with most of them. Nicest people you ever want to meet. I love them all.
Dabobbada's post could have been written by any of them. Change the names, slap in a few details and it is about the same story. Love, smiles, "spirituality" peace...and remembered good old early days until it went "bad". It all fell somewhat apart with the leaders drug use and outrageous promiscuity. As peoples kids, especially the girls, grew up, they had to keep Rapunzel at arms length.
When Rapunzel died of CANCER only a hard core few remained. They regrouped and guess what, they STILL have classes teaching their faith, they STILL promote a certain mindset...that we are all God, and they still deal with life according to a certain set of "Principles".
Recently there was a documentary made about this "cult" from the 1970's and sure enough, when speaking with them...they all began waxing nostalgic for the good old days when they saw the miracles, Rapunzel was teaching good things, and the love flowed. The documentary is called Free Spirits, the birth, life, and loss of a New Age dream. Check it out and see if there are not parallels. http://www.acornprod...
IT WAS THE 1970's and groups like this were everywhere! Lot's of "love", and little miracles flowed....TWI was not some special ministry from God...it was a direct result of the times and some guy who cashed in on them. It is just special because it was "our" little cult.
Oh, I once had a long talk with one of them about spirituality. It was a one sided conversation because he had all the answers and of course knew all about my faith. The whole time, I kept thinking about how we were in TWI...it was so eerie and familiar. I can't help it...whenever I see him coming now, I think to myself, oops here comes "God". Nice guy, he surprised me recently with a load of gravel for a rut in my driveway. Good man...but, he still has all the answers and everyone else is mislead.
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TrustAndObey
And that sums up quite a bit about most ministry leaders, offshoots, and church pastors.. No, not all, but a good majority.
Not to pass blame, since I also acted the same when in TWI. I remember a number of good ol' witnessing adventures thinking I had the answers. But I'm glad to say now, I don't, and honestly, I don't care to have all the answers, I got better things to do than try and put the whole world into this box called my brain.
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johniam
quote: The devil wants the word stopped so he created this narrative. Easy rationalization, then people who are trying to get the truth out are agents of the devil.
Trying to get the truth out????? So you're entitled to slander people non stop because you're "trying to get the truth out"???? Then why doesn't scripture agree with you?
In scripture why don't we see laundry lists like this when God's people are abused? For example, Joseph being lied about by Potiphar's wife, one of the first sexual predators identified in scripture, who tried to seduce Joseph and, when spurned, falsely accused him of trying to rape her, and subsequently causing him to spend 10 plus years in prison. No laundry list about her life. No mention of how she may have done this serially with every other household steward Potiphar hired. Nothing like that; just that God eventually made the situation right.
Another who did evil to God's people was king Ahaz, Hezekiah's predecessor, who screwed up so bad that when Hezekiah took over as king he had to literally break open the door to the house of the Lord so the priests could follow the law. As with most kings of Israel and Judah, Ahaz was noted for whether or not he had prepared his heart to seek the Lord, and some of his screw ups were mentioned, but after he wasn't king anymore, nothing. Just, again, that through Hezekiah's meekness, God could make a lot of things right.
God is a God of deliverance. You mentioned earlier that because of VP you will never be interested in belonging to a church or to a ministry again. I guess if you've given up on God what else is there to do but vent?
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johniam
quote:
What exactly does "reconciling men unto God to the church" mean? In that phrase there is somewhat of a confusion of destination there.
OK lets you and me go back to the 5th grade; diagramming sentences. This involves naming the part of speech of every word in the sentence. I found this training to be an invaluable aid when retemorizing.
The entire sentence is - God has delegated the responsibility of reconciling men unto God to the church.
God is a noun, and the subject of the sentence. 'Has' is an auxilliary verb. 'Delegated' is a verb, paired with has, being the predicate of the sentence. 'The' is a definite article. 'Responsibility' is a noun and the object of the sentence. The remaining words in the sentence are two prepositional phrases, one of which modifies the word responsibility, and the other of which modifies the word delegated. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd rendered the sentence - God has delegated to the church the responsibility of reconciling men unto God. Sorry about that.
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OldSkool
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waysider
If I understand your (diversonal) point correctly, here, you're implying that because these "laundry lists" aren't to be found in the Bible, we should, likewise, refrain from talking about the shortcomings of various so-called leaders. Guess what? These aren't Biblical times. This is real life in the 21st century. When leaders make unethical decisions, they open themselves to criticism from the congregation. That's how it should be. Checks and balances. If you really want to do something productive, sift through the scriptures for instructions detailing how the church's checks and balances system is supposed to function. There is plenty there to be found. It doesn't include sweeping bad behavior under the carpet or diverting attention away from genuine problems in an effort to protect the image of whoever your MOG of choice happens to be.
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So_crates
So out of all the points I made in the past two, three post this is the only one you could cherry pick to make some sort of counter argument. Sorry, won't wash.
Slander?
You haven't been doing your homework. Most of what you call slander can be backed up by witnesses on this site. Truth is the defense for an accusation of slander.
Also, if you truely believe God is a god of deliverence, what's your beef? I mean by informing people of what Saint Vic and the Craigmeister did, we're preventing them from going through the pain we did, and therefore delivering God's people (doing God's work)
Saint Vic on the other hand put people into bondage (seducing, raping, manipulating)(doing the devil's work)
So, your beef again is...?
In Acts, God did warn Paul not to go to Rome: He did it first directly, then through sisters prophesying, then he had another man of God come and literally tie Paul up. Well, think of TWI as Rome, people listening to my message as Paul, and me--well, I guess I'm the person tying them up, ain't I?
SoCrates
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johniam
quote: Johnia, it's not CFFM's money.
According to th IRS, yes it IS CFFMs money. Jesus, Paul, and Peter never had to deal with the IRS. The closest example I can think of in scripture is when the Romans wanted tribute money at Capernaum (Matt.17:24-27) According to Bishop Pillai, the fish had a piece of money in its mouth that was sufficient.
The manna was no good because if they ate it they'd get sick because of the worms. The money was still legal tender therefore it was still good. That analogy is just another morally superior platitude with no basis in fact or reality.
*I* did not veer this thread off course. Look at my first post. Look at some of the responses to it. There's your problem.
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johniam
quote
I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?
Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.
Sleep it off and LOOK at what I actually posted. I did not say "Christian bigot", I said CHRISTIANITY bigot. He is, IMO, a liberal who is a bigot who targets Christianity. There. That spell it out for you?
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chockfull
Because the Roman legions collecting taxes at the time just would tremble in fear at the thought of an IRS auditor with his pencil protectors. :blink:
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waysider
Did they (these various "offshoots") not assume the responsibility of stewardship?
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So_crates
I didn't know God worked for Internal Revenue. I didn't know God even recognized the Internal Revenue.
Here's where your making your error on this: physically yes it is their money, but spiritually...ahh spiritually there's the rub.
So you argue from physical plane and some one else argues from a spiritual plane you accuse them of being morally superior. The obvious answer is argue from a spiritual plane yourself.
Example, spiritual plane: we on nothing in this world its all on loan, so the Internal Revenue can argue whatever they want, God gets the last word.
SoCrates
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chockfull
Wow - that was sufficiently condescending. With skills and an attitude like that, you're wasting your time here. You could be climbing the ranks of TWI, smooching the right booties, abusing the right underlings. Or maybe you already are.
But since you're straining at gnats here, I'll just point out that the word "delegated" is nowhere to be found anywhere near that verse in the Bible. The difference between "delegated" and "given" is a wide difference, and the choice of that substitution really shows a legalistic and hierarchy-of-power slant in interpretation.
At any rate, the point I was making about the above is a common misconception. You have egotistical tyrants all promoting themselves and building their little man-made political hierarchies all in the name of "reconciling men unto God". The relationship between God and man is a personal one through Jesus Christ. If you bring a man to know God through Jesus Christ it really has nothing to do with bringing them to a church, a denomination, a fellowship. People read into that all the time. That's what I was referring to as a confusion of destination. That verse does not hold the intent to have Christians 2000 years later using it as justification to build their own Towers of Babel.
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mstar1
Just as a sidelight, I happened upon this Letter yesterday, to a higher up in the Episcopal Church from the House of Bishops.
Bear in mind that this Leader is NOT accused of sexual abuse, but knowing about ONE case and not doing anything about it(sweeping one case under the rug).
I thought that the stark juxtapostion between TWI and the genuine concern and care of a christian organization was very striking and and moving to see how it can be handled
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TrustAndObey
You know, this probably should go into "Theological/Doctrinal".
But just as an FYI, God does the reconciling,not us. What God has "given" is the good news, the words, the opportunity to serve in sharing the good news that God has reconciled the world unto Himself through His Son..
You and I are only ambassadors. Those who share the good news. Not the ones who actually "reconcile men to God".. God already wants to reconcile, and any willing person that comes to Him is reconciled, but you and I are just there to share the news and help point the way if they willing want to go and reconcile.. If you want to call that help, reconciling, well, it's your business.
And in just that, some feel they ought to be paid to share the good news.. Sure.. Go be a sale person. Have fun selling those newspapers, classes, and magazine subscriptions.. For the most part, they're preaching to the choir. TWI and exTWI folks. Heck, most churches. If people were actually giving money to help the sharing of the good news, they ought to give it to those who ain't sitting in their nice little enclave and groupie friends, but rather is out there amongst those who have never heard of Christ and what God has done. Else.. Well, waisted money. Trying to convince people their egocentric view is better than the last.
Waisted $$ I say..
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So_crates
Or Way-sted $$
SoCrates
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So_crates
On the contrary John, scripture does agree with me.
Refresh my memory: how many times did Jesus warn people about the Pharisees? How many times did he confront the Pharisees and remind them who and what they were?
Strange you would mention the Old Testement and forget the Gospels. Selective amnesia?
SoCrates
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Ham
if it makes any difference, I didn't slander anyone here.
Maybe you need to define the term "slander".
slander is slander, if it is not based in fact.
Now, as far as CFF is concerned.. outside of some doctrinal differences. I really have no charge to lay here.. or if I could rephrase it.. they haven't given me a reason to lay any charge.
My take on it.. they at best TOLERATE being associated with the victoid's name.
If they start building shrines, memorial gardens, rock gardens.. groves to herr vicmeister, we might have to REALLY part company..
a couple of their affiliates have. Well.. CFF itself, I can't say I know what they've done for the last two years. I hope not building shrines..
At this point.. I don't see them being any different than another church..
I hope I am not disappointed in this perception..
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