You're absolutely right, the assumption was that if you knew "The Word", then you were competent to counsel. There was no teaching or training on counseling, are you kidding me? So, as a Corps person, if you are told you're competent to counsel and someone comes along with a problem you have no answer for, there are only 2 alternatives. One is to admit you are simply at a loss and can't help them. That is completely unacceptable to both you and the counselee. I mean, what's the use of wearing that green name tag if you don't have all the answers? The other alternative is to assume there is something wrong with the counselee. That's the easiest strike because the counselee has already admitted they're having a problem. You've saved face, and the counselee doesn't suspect your incompetence.
Then there was my approach which was to quote Bible verses at people and tell them to renew their minds. That must have been an incredible comfort. Interestingly, no one ever came to me for counseling more than once. I always thought it was because they were healed.
I suppose I could be as obnoxious as anyone else in da ministry as well at times..
the kind of "counselling" sessions that I could easily hear through two solid wood doors. The lady has a *little* issue. "The scumbag won't keep his hands off of me.."
limb leader: (that's what they were called then) HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS.. JUST GET OVER IT.. GO GET LAID..
this character was brought up directly under vic's tutelage. 2nd corps, I think..
young, very very young. Supposedly "delivered" from a heroin habit at da hand of da master..
I doubt it.
Then there was the 6th corps "lady" here. Screamed at one individual that he was possessed, because he would not do exactly as she said..
turned out she was wrong. Both in the suggestion, and estimation of the counsellee..
then there was..
I could keep going on.
But where do they get this.. "if you will do EXACTLY as I say we can guarantee resolution.."
now a leading question can be effective. I went to a psychologist.. I had a few questions about a few things..
but in the interview: "when was the first time you consumed alcohol."
I mean, that's a pretty good assumption. And the question generally would get a more honest response than "did you ever take alcohol. If so, when?"
Even if you don't have a lot of real problems.. I think it would be a very profitable investment just to go to one of the professionals just to see what it is they actually DO..
When I was in TWI2, I ABS for a year, just to see what would happen. You know: how the windows of heaven would open up, what pressed down, shaken together, and running over looked like, how my storehouses would look not being able to contain the blessing, yadda yadda yadda.
After a year, the scenery looked pretty much the same.
So, I approached the area coordinator and asked him about it.
"You need a $20 an hour job," he told me.
"Where do you get those?" I asked.
He sent me to my twig leader to find out.
I approached my twig leader and told him the situation, explaining that the area coordinator sent me to him. My twig leader's answer to where you get a $20 an hour job: He shrugged his shoulders and said: "I don't know."
Another method of counciling used: Giving someone the run around.
Another method of counciling used: Giving someone the run around.
SoCrates
Sorry that happened to you, that really sucks.
My experiences too was that with the run around the idea of it being my fault was not too far behind. I think the idea is God is perfect, his word just works, so if there is lack it's your fault and you need to ....fill in the blank with select TWI teaching....
To be able to counsel someone requires both detachment and empathy.
Empathy, to try to understand where the counsellee is coming from.
Detachment, to be able to see the overall situation and to guide the counsellee out or through.
From a careers advice website:
A counsellor or psychotherapist should:
have excellent listening and observation skills
have empathy, patience and sensitivity
be able to support clients emotionally and encourage them to express their feelings
respect client confidentiality
have a genuine interest in people and their feelings, thoughts and behaviour.
At every level in this very basic list, TWI failed at "corporate" level. There were some people who were "good listeners" and those with difficulties genuinely warmed to them and sought their advice.
But generally, "counselling" sessions were a sort of excuse for asking intrusive and irrelevant personal questions. And for spying on individuals - maybe the counsellee, maybe people associated with the counsellee.
To think that LCM had fancied himself as a psychologist. Isn't that, supposedly, the degree he took? (That's what he told my Corps, anyway - before dissing all psychologists as charlatans.)
what kind of "counsellor" would suggest to a victim of sexual assault- to submit to it?
this character was one of vic's pride and joy..
This isn't an anger issue with me. And it isn't for me to forgive the guy..
or others like him..
but its more a matter of trust. Who in their right mind, would go to ex-way splinter group "leadership" for counselling?
in the eighties, they were awful. More than once they took confidential information and sent it up the tree..
I guess "lockbox" doesn't count, among a select few..
but don't the laws of confidentiality apply to "ministers" as well as psychiatrists, psychologists.. etc?
That would make an interesting science experiment if I were still in the organization. See what happens..
Tell your branch or area "coordinator" that you're homo, or a drug addict..
Just lie about it. And when they present reasons why you no longer are affiliated with da way to the group. Even a mere "he has some problems. He's off working on them.."
Tell your branch or area "coordinator" that you're homo, or a drug addict..
Just lie about it. And when they present reasons why you no longer are affiliated with da way to the group. Even a mere "he has some problems. He's off working on them.."
press charges.
That might be fun, but if the guy's in TWI he's not going to have any money. So it would be an expensive experiment.
That might be fun, but if the guy's in TWI he's not going to have any money. So it would be an expensive experiment.
I don't know if they'd need any money. It depends on how badly the lawyer wants a piece of the ministry. There's a legal principle: Respondeat superior (definition). Basically it states that anything anyone does, acting as an agent of a company or organization, the company or organization bears the responsibility.
Put simply, anything a twig leader on up does, TWI pays for.
May I say that during four years of in-residence corps training I never received ANY instruction in counseling. Never. Not once. As graduated way corps I counseled daily. Talk about a recipe for disaster. I had a real knack for telling people what to do with their lives
I am only thankful that the only two people I wronged out of all my counseling session accepted my apology when I tracked them down to make things right after leaving TWI. Both of those situation went wrong from following the BOD instructions that were given me.
I found a transcript from a class I must have taken at some point in time. I honestly don't recall even taking it or who taught it. It's called Christian Counseling and it's about 20 pages long. I haven't had time yet to really look at it in depth.
Here, though, is a passage from page nine that displays, in my opinion, how The Way grossly lacked any real understanding of what mental illness is all about.
"Where does behavior come from? Can I control my behavior? You better believe I can! If a person is depressed, I will bet you that person's house is absolute chaos. The beds will not be made. There will be clothes all over the floor. The vacuuming will not have been done in a month. The ironing will not have been done. There will be inch thick dust all over everything. Find a depressed person, go over to their house, and you will see it. Are they ever going to get out of that depression? Not until they start acting and get that house straight. You always start with the physical."
It's pretty scary to think they passed this stuff off as "counseling" training. Even scarier that I once believed it was valid.
Are they ever going to get out of that depression? Not until they start acting and get that house straight. You always start with the physical."[/i]
How simple minded and backwards can you get. I love the "absolutes" thrown in there for good measure, i.e. ever, not until, always. I never had the class but can almost picture Craig teaching it while yelling and being all animated....
How simple minded and backwards can you get. I love the "absolutes" thrown in there for good measure, i.e. ever, not until, always. I never had the class but can almost picture Craig teaching it while yelling and being all animated....
I don't remember who taught it. It wasn't LCM, though. This transcript is from the mid to late 1970s, I think. There is no author or copyright listed on it.
This might be something we took in fellowlaborers. It could have been a guest speaker from the Corps, working on their "research" paper. Geeze, I can't believe I can't remember this!
This might be something we took in fellowlaborers. It could have been a guest speaker from the Corps, working on their "research" paper. Geeze, I can't believe I can't remember this!
The mind has a way of forgetting traumatic experiences....
ah.. that's how you "smoke out" "depressed" people. Check the top of their refrigerator..
maybe that's why "leaders" needed so much help.. so many hours of volunteered time. Cleaning out the dust bunnies.. taking care of their kids, etc. etc..
I am only thankful that the only two people I wronged out of all my counseling session accepted my apology when I tracked them down to make things right after leaving TWI. Both of those situation went wrong from following the BOD instructions that were given me.
And that apology really helped at least one of those two... Just thought you would like to know.
"People generally feel bad because of bad behavior. Conscience has been defined as man's ability to evaluate his own actions. Dr. Wierwille defines conscience as habit patterns, or says that it is determined by habit patterns, that one develops during one's life. That conscience or that habit pattern reflex in your mind activates unpleasant emotional and other bodily warning devices; or signals bad feelings about yourself, when you are doing wrongly, when you miss the mark when you sin. When you fail, you feel it."
Now, there's some mighty scary jive right there.
Did Charles Manson "feel bad" when he was "missing the mark"
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Watered Garden
TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT
chockfull
And yes, the Way knows about as much about counseling as it does about running an accredited Christian college. See the following: nothing, nil, nix, nada, null, aught, cipher, cypher,
chockfull
To me you were dealing with lower level intelligence there. Well, sh1t, maybe that's what we all were dealing with. Let's compare here mothers. On one hand, we have that lady's example.
Broken Arrow
You're absolutely right, the assumption was that if you knew "The Word", then you were competent to counsel. There was no teaching or training on counseling, are you kidding me? So, as a Corps person, if you are told you're competent to counsel and someone comes along with a problem you have no answer for, there are only 2 alternatives. One is to admit you are simply at a loss and can't help them. That is completely unacceptable to both you and the counselee. I mean, what's the use of wearing that green name tag if you don't have all the answers? The other alternative is to assume there is something wrong with the counselee. That's the easiest strike because the counselee has already admitted they're having a problem. You've saved face, and the counselee doesn't suspect your incompetence.
Then there was my approach which was to quote Bible verses at people and tell them to renew their minds. That must have been an incredible comfort. Interestingly, no one ever came to me for counseling more than once. I always thought it was because they were healed.
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Ham
Yep..
I suppose I could be as obnoxious as anyone else in da ministry as well at times..
the kind of "counselling" sessions that I could easily hear through two solid wood doors. The lady has a *little* issue. "The scumbag won't keep his hands off of me.."
limb leader: (that's what they were called then) HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS.. JUST GET OVER IT.. GO GET LAID..
this character was brought up directly under vic's tutelage. 2nd corps, I think..
young, very very young. Supposedly "delivered" from a heroin habit at da hand of da master..
I doubt it.
Then there was the 6th corps "lady" here. Screamed at one individual that he was possessed, because he would not do exactly as she said..
turned out she was wrong. Both in the suggestion, and estimation of the counsellee..
then there was..
I could keep going on.
But where do they get this.. "if you will do EXACTLY as I say we can guarantee resolution.."
now a leading question can be effective. I went to a psychologist.. I had a few questions about a few things..
but in the interview: "when was the first time you consumed alcohol."
I mean, that's a pretty good assumption. And the question generally would get a more honest response than "did you ever take alcohol. If so, when?"
Even if you don't have a lot of real problems.. I think it would be a very profitable investment just to go to one of the professionals just to see what it is they actually DO..
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So_crates
I've told this story a couple of times.
When I was in TWI2, I ABS for a year, just to see what would happen. You know: how the windows of heaven would open up, what pressed down, shaken together, and running over looked like, how my storehouses would look not being able to contain the blessing, yadda yadda yadda.
After a year, the scenery looked pretty much the same.
So, I approached the area coordinator and asked him about it.
"You need a $20 an hour job," he told me.
"Where do you get those?" I asked.
He sent me to my twig leader to find out.
I approached my twig leader and told him the situation, explaining that the area coordinator sent me to him. My twig leader's answer to where you get a $20 an hour job: He shrugged his shoulders and said: "I don't know."
Another method of counciling used: Giving someone the run around.
SoCrates
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OldSkool
Sorry that happened to you, that really sucks.
My experiences too was that with the run around the idea of it being my fault was not too far behind. I think the idea is God is perfect, his word just works, so if there is lack it's your fault and you need to ....fill in the blank with select TWI teaching....
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Twinky
To be able to counsel someone requires both detachment and empathy.
Empathy, to try to understand where the counsellee is coming from.
Detachment, to be able to see the overall situation and to guide the counsellee out or through.
From a careers advice website:
At every level in this very basic list, TWI failed at "corporate" level. There were some people who were "good listeners" and those with difficulties genuinely warmed to them and sought their advice.
But generally, "counselling" sessions were a sort of excuse for asking intrusive and irrelevant personal questions. And for spying on individuals - maybe the counsellee, maybe people associated with the counsellee.
To think that LCM had fancied himself as a psychologist. Isn't that, supposedly, the degree he took? (That's what he told my Corps, anyway - before dissing all psychologists as charlatans.)
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Ham
Thinking about it..
what kind of "counsellor" would suggest to a victim of sexual assault- to submit to it?
this character was one of vic's pride and joy..
This isn't an anger issue with me. And it isn't for me to forgive the guy..
or others like him..
but its more a matter of trust. Who in their right mind, would go to ex-way splinter group "leadership" for counselling?
in the eighties, they were awful. More than once they took confidential information and sent it up the tree..
I guess "lockbox" doesn't count, among a select few..
but don't the laws of confidentiality apply to "ministers" as well as psychiatrists, psychologists.. etc?
That would make an interesting science experiment if I were still in the organization. See what happens..
Tell your branch or area "coordinator" that you're homo, or a drug addict..
Just lie about it. And when they present reasons why you no longer are affiliated with da way to the group. Even a mere "he has some problems. He's off working on them.."
press charges.
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Broken Arrow
That might be fun, but if the guy's in TWI he's not going to have any money. So it would be an expensive experiment.
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Ham
True. I was just being a little cruel here..
but if I were *leadership* in twi, I'd make a note of this.
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So_crates
I don't know if they'd need any money. It depends on how badly the lawyer wants a piece of the ministry. There's a legal principle: Respondeat superior (definition). Basically it states that anything anyone does, acting as an agent of a company or organization, the company or organization bears the responsibility.
Put simply, anything a twig leader on up does, TWI pays for.
SoCrates
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frank123lol
Ham,You did not"fit" in what "they" wanted.The idiot obviously went "fishing".
If you would have "given" him somthing,anything,it would have been used against you.
Why?Was that loving?I "survived"that time and I still do not know the real reason behind
the stuff,other than a money issue as I think it turned into.Abs so much per person,or said persons are gone.
Hope this is not too personal.As I should have told them to fu@k off=I was afraid my marriage would collapse as so many did.
So...i was patient...took time I still am married almost 30 years.
Maybe it was the cowards way...Bas@@rds.That "one"was the worst.he could'nt find his own butt,others have verified.
This other guy apa@ pu3h from w.va.made his mission toget rid of people.He got rid of a guy cause he laughed too much.
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OldSkool
May I say that during four years of in-residence corps training I never received ANY instruction in counseling. Never. Not once. As graduated way corps I counseled daily. Talk about a recipe for disaster. I had a real knack for telling people what to do with their lives
I am only thankful that the only two people I wronged out of all my counseling session accepted my apology when I tracked them down to make things right after leaving TWI. Both of those situation went wrong from following the BOD instructions that were given me.
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waysider
I found a transcript from a class I must have taken at some point in time. I honestly don't recall even taking it or who taught it. It's called Christian Counseling and it's about 20 pages long. I haven't had time yet to really look at it in depth.
Here, though, is a passage from page nine that displays, in my opinion, how The Way grossly lacked any real understanding of what mental illness is all about.
"Where does behavior come from? Can I control my behavior? You better believe I can! If a person is depressed, I will bet you that person's house is absolute chaos. The beds will not be made. There will be clothes all over the floor. The vacuuming will not have been done in a month. The ironing will not have been done. There will be inch thick dust all over everything. Find a depressed person, go over to their house, and you will see it. Are they ever going to get out of that depression? Not until they start acting and get that house straight. You always start with the physical."
It's pretty scary to think they passed this stuff off as "counseling" training. Even scarier that I once believed it was valid.
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OldSkool
How simple minded and backwards can you get. I love the "absolutes" thrown in there for good measure, i.e. ever, not until, always. I never had the class but can almost picture Craig teaching it while yelling and being all animated....
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waysider
I don't remember who taught it. It wasn't LCM, though. This transcript is from the mid to late 1970s, I think. There is no author or copyright listed on it.
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OldSkool
I guess he learned simple minded and backwards from his predecessors...or maybe it came natural...
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waysider
This might be something we took in fellowlaborers. It could have been a guest speaker from the Corps, working on their "research" paper. Geeze, I can't believe I can't remember this!
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OldSkool
The mind has a way of forgetting traumatic experiences....
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Ham
so many assumptions..
a depressed person has a "dirty" house?
so is the converse true?
ah.. that's how you "smoke out" "depressed" people. Check the top of their refrigerator..
maybe that's why "leaders" needed so much help.. so many hours of volunteered time. Cleaning out the dust bunnies.. taking care of their kids, etc. etc..
now it all makes sense.
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Ham
my then "leadership" not once set their foot in my house.
very, very interesting.
Did they not "care".. even by way doctrine and mandates?
You know. Come and see what kind of "representation" da *ministry* is promoting?
there was ch*lar. nope, not once. Never came. And it was just a small branch. At most 5-7 twigs at any given moment..
then there was.. the o*d*ngs. Came to my house? NEVER.
The *almighty* limb coordinator.. mr. he who was so holy as to never allow his bread and vegetables to ever meet, in one place..
NO... never. Never came..
but somehow, he was able to look in some kind of crystal ball, and see.. gawd forbid.. dust bunnies?
yeah frank.. I think you are on the mark here. why look at a census of dust bunnies, when you have a whole plethora of blue forms to peruse..
so.. this son of a bitch.. was willing to sacrifice my family.. to the god of abundance..
so it seems.
I wonder how he is doing lately.
and if it makes any difference here friend.. I'm glad you survived. Really..
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OldSkool
Bad for you, you encountered two of the biggest pompous a$$ goof balls this side of the Atlantic.
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Ham
I had a really, really weird dream last night.
The ex and I figured out that we needed to really be the ones to guide this family..
what a weird dream.
in the dream, she admitted that she lost everything..
I could be really damned bitter here, if I chose to be..
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JavaJane
And that apology really helped at least one of those two... Just thought you would like to know.
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waysider
And this from page 8:
"People generally feel bad because of bad behavior. Conscience has been defined as man's ability to evaluate his own actions. Dr. Wierwille defines conscience as habit patterns, or says that it is determined by habit patterns, that one develops during one's life. That conscience or that habit pattern reflex in your mind activates unpleasant emotional and other bodily warning devices; or signals bad feelings about yourself, when you are doing wrongly, when you miss the mark when you sin. When you fail, you feel it."
Now, there's some mighty scary jive right there.
Did Charles Manson "feel bad" when he was "missing the mark"
Frightening, really.
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OldSkool
Thanks!
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