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Following along the way international's practices, TLTF still charges people for video classes. They have a whole line of verses seemingly intended to shame students into paying for what should be free. Verses on giving and receiving, holy scripture used to extract what can be extracted. Then, as a side note they say they will give the video away to anyone who can't afford the $39.00. <_<

The hypocrisy slaps me right across the face. Lead the way in freely giving and freely receiving. You seek to teach us how to give, yet when it comes to your best offerings you charge MONEY. So, is all that you do give freely intended to whet our appetites into buying the inner secrets? You certainly DO put yourself out there in many ways without charging. Are these offerings the big fat claims - the advertisements needed to promote your products?

Shame on you. I do read your monthly news letter, and it's not all bad. In fact there is much good. But a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

So what if you have staff. If you are helping people you will receive donations. God is able to meet your needs! If people can't give then your example will be that much more impacting, just as it was with Paul. Perhaps if you weren't so encumbered with setting up a non-profit corporation your priorities would be different.

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Well, I went to the TLTF website and found out about their "The End Times" seminar (!?!), eight 40-minute segments

on dispensationalism.

I just finished two semesters of Constructive Theology, in which the high points were questioning the prof in class and engaging the other students. The prof often allowed us to take the discussion where we wanted it to go.

The idea of sitting like a potato for five hours and twenty minutes listening to a TWI style indoctrination lecture just turns my stomach.

I just spent about $39 dollars for 39 episodes from the first-season of Perry Mason back in 1957. A far more instructive investment. Everybody involved in it knew they were producing fiction, and they did a good job of it.

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz
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I just finished two semesters of Constructive Theology, in which the high points were questioning the prof in class and engaging the other students. The prof often allowed us to take the discussion where we wanted it to go.

I have no doubt the prof. learns from his students during sessions such as these. Instead of the lofty "teacher" position inhabited by TWI/offshoot bigwigs.

I'm not really into being talked down to anymore.

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I have no doubt the prof. learns from his students during sessions such as these. Instead of the lofty "teacher" position inhabited by TWI/offshoot bigwigs.

I'm not really into being talked down to anymore.

I was reading The Jesus Wars by Philip Jenkins, and I had it with me in class one day. My professor saw it and expressed some interest, so I loaned my copy to him when I was finished with it. A week or so later, he returned my copy, and told me he's going to start using it as a textbook the next time he teaches the class!

One thing I noticed in the early days of CES was that John, John and Mark were willing to question their understanding of a topic only until they published something about it. Once they had put their position in print or on tape, it was set in stone, and could NOT be revisited. Real professional scholars are ALWAYS questioning and rethinking the things they teach. Each semester, the class is different, not because it was defective, but because the people, professors and students, are always growing and the cutting edge of the state of the art is always advancing.

I have in my personal library a copy of Clarence Larkin's The Greatest Book on Dispensational Truth in the World. Yes! That is its real title! Originally published in 1918. It is full of curious, nearly manic diagrams depicting in stunning detail the most convoluted chronological and dispensational fantasies a person could imagine.

The book sits there, like a time capsule of baroque theological error, the frozen relic of a bygone day. It strikes me that TLTF's The End Times will have pretty much the same effect.

Love,

Steve

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The book sits there, like a time capsule of baroque theological error, the frozen relic of a bygone day. It strikes me that TLTF's The End Times will have pretty much the same effect.

Steve, what do you think this comes from?

Personally, my opinion at the moment is that the idea of truth doesn't change is used to promote the idea that what is taught is truth, therefore the teaching doesn't change once "researched" and presented.

Either way, it shows some very flawed logic as well as some extreme high mindedness from those that are supposed to lead the example in humility.

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Steve, what do you think this comes from?

Personally, my opinion at the moment is that the idea of truth doesn't change is used to promote the idea that what is taught is truth, therefore the teaching doesn't change once "researched" and presented.

Either way, it shows some very flawed logic as well as some extreme high mindedness from those that are supposed to lead the example in humility.

I think you hit the nail on the head, OldSkool, when you used the phrase "extreme highmindedness". Romans 11:20 says "Be not highminded, but fear:" Wierwille expressly taught in foundational PFAL that this verse was not addressed to Christians, when in truth, it WAS.

Wierwille taught that we are not to fear God, but that we are to respect Him, the way we would respect an elderly uncle we are no longer expected to obey. Wierwille divorced the idea of obedience from the idea of respect for God. After all, obedience doesn't matter in this WONDERFUL AGE OF GRACE!

In Psalm 139:23&24, David cried out, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

That was an expression of genuine fear of God. A person who does not fear God mistakes every thought and intent of his own heart for TRUTH, because the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

People who do not fear God come to believe their own hype. At one time, CES' motto was "Speaking the truth in love." They arrived at a place where they believed the things they spoke were true and loving, just because they spoke them. Never mind what's actually written in the Word.

They can't help deceiving people, because they have deceived themselves!

Love,

Steve

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If you tell a lie enough times, you start to believe it's true.

Some people say the problem with lying is that you can't remember all the lies you've told. You can't remain consistent. There's some truth to that, but the other problem with lying, as you so aptly point out, waysider,is that you start to believe the lie yourself. John Lynn and John Schoenheit really do believe that they have the greatest package of truth in the world today, even though it blows apart at the slightest whif of genuine exegesis, like a Hoosier double-wide mobile home in an EF5 tornado!

Love,

Steve

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Mr. Lynn is not shy about his "priorities"... Especially when he is so vocal about his request for people to give money... Even in that "End Times" video series he goes on a side path of how Paul approved the right of a minister to ask for money.. And damnit, he wants $$$.. (Ok , that last sentence was added by me).

If you've ever read any of his newsletters then you know John's desire.. Asking for people to donate a motor coach, pray for rich people to donate a million, requests for plane tickets so he can "minister" to their group. That's the TWI logic. The first of many points I brought up to TWI's top head honcho before leaving. And when I first involved myself with CES it wasn't like that... But it quickly became that. TLTF started with that crap.. I don't see it changing.

The idea of sitting like a potato for five hours and twenty minutes listening to a TWI style indoctrination lecture just turns my stomach.

It does mine too.. But then for some reason I still torture myself just so I can be assured I don't misunderstand their position when I talk with those in and explain the folly. Especially their "that's not written to us" indoctrinated crap. As if Jesus is not their Lord, and he expressed His and His Father's will very clearly, 'Freely you have received, freely give".

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Soooo... the Old Testament, the Gospels, the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ have NOTHING to do with the existence or purpose of the Church?"

How I would love to ask that question of one of those bozos! But none of them pay no mind to me nomore.

Love,

Steve

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Steve, what do you think this comes from?

Personally, my opinion at the moment is that the idea of truth doesn't change is used to promote the idea that what is taught is truth, therefore the teaching doesn't change once "researched" and presented.

Either way, it shows some very flawed logic as well as some extreme high mindedness from those that are supposed to lead the example in humility.

I've been giving this some more thought.

After I took Power for Abundant Living, I thought that I was a better Christian. Whether or not I really was is something for the Lord Jesus Christ to judge, but that's what I thought. I promoted PFAL because I thought it could help people be better Christians.

I now realize how devilish that mindset is.

If the class can make me a better Christian, that must mean that I am a better Christian than anybody who hasn't taken the class. A grad is by definition a better Christian than a non-grad. I think that's what I Corinthians 8:1 means when it says that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

John Schoenheit and John Lynn each believes in his own heart that he is the best Christian on the face of the earth, because he has the knowledge that others need to have in order to become better Christians. Not that they would say it that way. They would have some seemingly self-effacing way to say it, but it would mean the same thing.

That's why Schoenheit can write, "It is our assertion that there are theological issues that we understand more correctly than most translators, and thus our translation will reflect that theology."

In other words "I understand the Bible better than any other translator on the face of the earth."

That's why John Lynn, in his much more wordy way can write, " ...How excited do you think Jesus was when, after God raised him from the dead, He told him “the Secret” He had kept to Himself from all eternity?” No doubt Jesus exclaimed, 'VERY COOL!'... That “Secret” is by far the most important truth in the Word of God, and very few Christians could tell you what it is. The true “Secret” is that Jesus Christ would diversify himself all over the world in a body of vastly diversified people, each of whom is equipped with the same power he used to bring God’s Truth, Love, and Power to mankind. Now the Lord Jesus can exert a life-changing influence in Jerusalem and Kansas City, as well as wherever YOU live. The Living Truth Fellowship is all about helping you walk in the fullness of what Jesus made available to you."

In other words, "I know how to walk in the fullness of what Jesus made available to us better than anybody else on the face of the earth."

Those guys have their whole identities invested in regarding themselves as being better

Christians than anybody else. That's why they HAVE to do new translations and teach new classes, to validate the opinions they hold of themselves. The problem is, they AREN'T the best Christians on the face of the earth, and that truth is obvious to anybody who has not already bought into their error.

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz
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My church has shown Nicky Gumbel's Alpha course several times within the last 12 years, never asked for any donations for materials or food for meals. Not everyone stays for the entire class. We now have added other related materials from church of England, Lutheran, United methodist,etc. After each session, we break up into groups ranging from 5-12 people, allow new folks to ask questions(most have been Christian their entire lives though not necessarily Lutheran or Episcopalian). Some chose to join our congregation, others did not. One was a female Wiccan whose boyfriend was Christian. She completed the class but never has attended any denominational/institutional church, or independent house church/home fellowship/local spiritual assembly and still practices white magic(unfortunately her boyfriend ended up joining her coven). We now include Reality by Michael Green, Open Home/Bible, Christianity Explored, Beginnings-Rob Weber, Christian Believer, Foundations-Thomas Holliday, Powersurge-Michael Foss, etc. No fees for DVD and books, meals, or anything else. Too bad TWI, CFFM, S&TF/CES, TLTF, CR&F, etc. don't offer free classes. Hey, so what if no one shows up? :smilie_kool_aid::biglaugh:

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I dunno. Once they know the "secret".. what are they exactly supposed to do with it?

Personally.. I couldn't bludgeon another human being for thinking that the Almighty is.. fill anything in the blank.

The "secret" is that we don't know what the hell anything really is, in this existence..

:biglaugh:

I'm really not that intelligent.

Oh.. charging for classes.

maybe the "answer" is that "there is no answer"..

could you live with that "answer"?

:biglaugh:

charging for non-answers.. heh.

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I'm trying to imagine if I could care less about what any of those people teach and believe. I don't think I can.

OldSkool - I can't be bothered reading what any of them write. I might be curious for a moment - then I get bogged down by all the wordiness.

Steve - I used to enjoy a good old fashioned debate, but I don't anymore.

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  • 2 months later...

I've been giving this some more thought.

After I took Power for Abundant Living, I thought that I was a better Christian. Whether or not I really was is something for the Lord Jesus Christ to judge, but that's what I thought. I promoted PFAL because I thought it could help people be better Christians.

I now realize how devilish that mindset is.

If the class can make me a better Christian, that must mean that I am a better Christian than anybody who hasn't taken the class.

well it depends on what you mean by "better". a friend of mine is an aircarft mechaninc and works on the air tankers that fly over and drop liquid on forest fires. he took classes so he could be a better mechainc. my landlord is a mechanic for the city and recently had to take classes so he could be a better mechanic. i took drum lessons so i could play drums better. i study the bible so i can live the word of God better. it not that my friends above or myself are taking classes to be better than other people but rather to be better at what we do. i took PFAL in 1980 and as i applied the Word taught in the class i became better at livng Gods Word. i am a better drummer because of the lessons(class) i took. i'm not trying to compare myself to others as a drummer or a christian but rather improve my own life. it is possible for someone to take classes and boast that they are better then others but thats not what TWI promoted. i went to way fellowships and i went to the offshoot indendent fellowships for about 7 years and i never heard anyone in either group say that taking a class will make you a better christian. i took a couple of the independant fellowship classes to. the only thing that will make you a better christian( better able to do the Word because of instruction) is if you apply what your taught in the class. the same applys in classes that pertain to work. if i take a class on drumming and not apply it i will not be a better drummer. i hope this helps. btw my landlord is a better mechanic than other mechanics that have not had the latest automotive repair class.

Edited by shiftthis
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The whole household thing was about being "better" than the unwashed masses of mainstream Christianity. The corps was about being the "best" of the household.

edit: I'm not sure how patterning one's life after misinformation in an error riddled class can improve the quality of one's personal, Christian walk. Maybe someone could enlighten me with specific examples of how this is possible.

Edited by waysider
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i went to way fellowships and i went to the offshoot indendent fellowships for about 7 years and i never heard anyone in either group say that taking a class will make you a better christian.

I am not sure how you missed all the negative comparisons about how the way international had the "truth" that nobody else has known since the 1st century church. If that isn't saying the way is better than everyone else I don't know what is.

Offshoots make similar big fat claims as well.

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The whole premise of Power For Abundant Living is that it supposedly contains information that will make you a better Christian. I don't think you have to look too far beyond the title, itself, to understand that concept.

Not entirely a bad concept. But, it didn't stop there. No, it was made clear that one could not expect to see these results as an individual, without becoming an active member of the group.....stay within the household...don't fellowship with unbelievers, etc. And, what was the primary focus of the group's activity? Simple, bring people into the PFAL class and make sure they continue on a class-centric path.

If you need proof, please refer to page 2 of Witnessing and Undershepherding.

"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living..."

(All of which comes with a price tag.)

Edited by waysider
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"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living..."

(All of which comes with a price tag.)

Yep, a price tag and more bait and switch tactics to keep a person paying for more classes and participating in all things TWI. Classes, programs, fellowships infiniti. You never actually attain what they promise. You just need to spend a lifetime working at improving your discipline in believing and staying hot on the present truth. Oh, and give at least 10% of your money In perpetuity.

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i had to pay money to take drum classes. it cost money to go to collage. even public school cost and property owners pay the cost. if someone wants to charge for a biblical class they have a right to. The Word of God says a laborer is worthy of his hire. if TWI or John Lynn or somebody else charges for a class why is it a problem. materials cost money, a venue cost money, electricity cost money, peoples time cost money. if you dont like it you dont have to go.

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i had to pay money to take drum classes. it cost money to go to collage. even public school cost and property owners pay the cost. if someone wants to charge for a biblical class they have a right to. The Word of God says a laborer is worthy of his hire. if TWI or John Lynn or somebody else charges for a class why is it a problem. materials cost money, a venue cost money, electricity cost money, peoples time cost money. if you dont like it you dont have to go.

I don't think anyone is really disputing the need to cover business expenses. What has come into question is the motivation involved.

Let me state it another way. When I see all these offshoots springing up and offering new material, I don't see someone saying, "I need to charge for my classes". What I see is someone saying, "I need to have classes I can charge for".

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Yep, a price tag and more bait and switch tactics to keep a person paying for more classes and participating in all things TWI. Classes, programs, fellowships infiniti. You never actually attain what they promise. You just need to spend a lifetime working at improving your discipline in believing and staying hot on the present truth. Oh, and give at least 10% of your money In perpetuity.

I think Scientology does this---and the class rates are SUPER high. The 'church' finances the classes up front Because they are so incredibly expensive, people work second jobs to pay them off.

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