You're right, JumpinJive! It goes deep and back a long way. One of the things I've found reading different peoples' perspectives on Pentecost is that they agree one of Luke's main concerns in the book of Acts was "salvation," but none of them actually examine what Luke's definition of "salvation" was. Mainly because Luke never defines what he means by "salvation" in the book of Acts. Luke defines "salvation" in Luke 19:18-30 and 20:27-36. "To be saved" means "to receive the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come." When God raised Jesus out from among the dead, Jesus received the promise of the Father, the Spirit of resurrection life (Ezekiel 37:14). This enabled Jesus on the Day of Pentecost to pour out the promise of the Father (Joel 2:28-32),the EARNEST of the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come.
This is not going to be an easy paper to write...
Love,
Steve
And Luke's definition of salvation doesn't work without the anthropology set forth in Genesis 2:7, man is a soul composed of dust and animated by his respiration.
last night i was beyond desperate for help and i spoke in tongues . . .
I am most always "beyond desperate for help" and find that any kind of prayer will bring me closer into the presence of the Lord :)/>
Recently I watched Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural" with Tommy Welchel, and since then, have been reading about the Azusa Street Revival (1906-1910). Sid Roth's "It's supernatural" program includes portrayals of what his guest experienced, and during the course of Tommy Welchel's interview there were portrayals of William J Seymour, the preacher who led the Azusa Street Revival. Before he would preach/teach/minister, he set on a bench in the warehouse there with a wooden box on his head . . . I have been doing that . . . I don't have a wooden box, but I got a cardboard box that was big enough for my head. And just sitting in my bedroom praying with that box on my head helps keep away the various distractions and helps me get into the praise and worship quicker and deeper than without the box. I think praying is a "whatever works" deal. Speaking in tongues is good, but William Seymour knew he was called to lead the revival and was ministering and doing what the Lord told him to do before he received the fullness of the Holy Spirit. There have been many wonderful Christians who have walked with the Lord who did not speak in tongues. I never read or heard that Billy Graham speaks in tongues, but he certainly has done wonderful things to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth.
It seems that both that twi and ex-twi people are easily prejudiced against people who don't speak in tongues, as though speaking in tongues was the dividing line between godliness and ungodliness, between approaching the throne of God and being denied access to Him. However, since the Lord looks on the heart, truly. And the Lord is the true Judge of the heart. It seems most foolish to venture such a judgment.
I go with "whatever works." For me right now it's sitting with a box on my head. And I am trying also to build up a routine such as Daniel had of praying like this three times a day. I watched the PureFlix movie, "Daniel," and Holy Spirit brought into mind the children's fellowship song, "Daniel was a man of Prayer" [daily prayed he three times].
I definitely agree that developing a consistent prayer fellowship with the Lord is vital keeping us in the confidence and faith of Daniel who was so faithful that God was able to shut the lions' mouth. Daniel lived in a faith realm where "fears could not alarm him" and I think that had to do with the consistent prayer routine he and Ananiah, Hazariah, and Mishael (commonly known as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego) had.
The other day, I was thinking about John 4:24, where it says "God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
The reason I was thinking about that verse was because I wanted to compare it with II Corinthians 3:17, "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty."
Primarily because I am coming to the opinion that the dual nature (dyophysite) of the trinity exists in the gift of the Holy Spirit rather than in the man Christ Jesus.
I think John was referring to speaking in tongues when he wrote about worshiping God by means of spirit and truth, but I think Pentecostals are wrong when they interpret it to mean that tongues is the only way to pray.
In the Greek, the word translated "must" in King James is the word dei (pronounced "day"). While its primary meaning is "it is necessary", it also conveys the meaning "one ought to".
While God has provided us a means to worship Him by way of Spirit, in tongues, and people who understand that ought to do it, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, and God is more than willing to accept peoples' prayers in whatever way they understand to pray, out of a genuine heart.
Not as His peer, as in equal to (as Lucifer thought) , but made out of the "stuff" of God.
Our bodies and minds and hearts and souls were made after the image of God. We were made in His image, not only spirit, but all of us is in His image -- we love as He loves, we feel as He feels. People do talk to God. That spirit infuses us and gives life to all our flesh and soul is capable of communicating with the Lord in infinite ways other than speaking in tongues. It's the presence of the spirit which gives life to us.
I remember the blind man who was given his sight, and when questioned further by the Pharisees, said, "... and you also would worship Him?" They could not worship the Lord Jesus because the Holy Spirit was not alive in them. That spirit, the comforter, the spirit of truth, guides us into all truth, which is Jesus. He makes known the Lord Jesus to us. I know it's the Holy Spirit if it reveals the Lord Jesus to me, in scripture and in His presence in the earth (the face of Jesus is often shown to me in people who show Him forth in that part of Him they know.
That spirit infuses us and gives life to all our flesh and soul is capable of communicating with the Lord in infinite ways other than speaking in tongues. It's the presence of the spirit which gives life to us.
Thank you for this wonderful thought. I can't say that I can't agree more..
Recommended Posts
Steve Lortz
And Luke's definition of salvation doesn't work without the anthropology set forth in Genesis 2:7, man is a soul composed of dust and animated by his respiration.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
Excathedra wrote...
I am most always "beyond desperate for help" and find that any kind of prayer will bring me closer into the presence of the Lord :)/>
Recently I watched Sid Roth's "It's Supernatural" with Tommy Welchel, and since then, have been reading about the Azusa Street Revival (1906-1910). Sid Roth's "It's supernatural" program includes portrayals of what his guest experienced, and during the course of Tommy Welchel's interview there were portrayals of William J Seymour, the preacher who led the Azusa Street Revival. Before he would preach/teach/minister, he set on a bench in the warehouse there with a wooden box on his head . . . I have been doing that . . . I don't have a wooden box, but I got a cardboard box that was big enough for my head. And just sitting in my bedroom praying with that box on my head helps keep away the various distractions and helps me get into the praise and worship quicker and deeper than without the box. I think praying is a "whatever works" deal. Speaking in tongues is good, but William Seymour knew he was called to lead the revival and was ministering and doing what the Lord told him to do before he received the fullness of the Holy Spirit. There have been many wonderful Christians who have walked with the Lord who did not speak in tongues. I never read or heard that Billy Graham speaks in tongues, but he certainly has done wonderful things to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth.
It seems that both that twi and ex-twi people are easily prejudiced against people who don't speak in tongues, as though speaking in tongues was the dividing line between godliness and ungodliness, between approaching the throne of God and being denied access to Him. However, since the Lord looks on the heart, truly. And the Lord is the true Judge of the heart. It seems most foolish to venture such a judgment.
I go with "whatever works." For me right now it's sitting with a box on my head. And I am trying also to build up a routine such as Daniel had of praying like this three times a day. I watched the PureFlix movie, "Daniel," and Holy Spirit brought into mind the children's fellowship song, "Daniel was a man of Prayer" [daily prayed he three times].
I definitely agree that developing a consistent prayer fellowship with the Lord is vital keeping us in the confidence and faith of Daniel who was so faithful that God was able to shut the lions' mouth. Daniel lived in a faith realm where "fears could not alarm him" and I think that had to do with the consistent prayer routine he and Ananiah, Hazariah, and Mishael (commonly known as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego) had.
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
The other day, I was thinking about John 4:24, where it says "God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
The reason I was thinking about that verse was because I wanted to compare it with II Corinthians 3:17, "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty."
Primarily because I am coming to the opinion that the dual nature (dyophysite) of the trinity exists in the gift of the Holy Spirit rather than in the man Christ Jesus.
I think John was referring to speaking in tongues when he wrote about worshiping God by means of spirit and truth, but I think Pentecostals are wrong when they interpret it to mean that tongues is the only way to pray.
In the Greek, the word translated "must" in King James is the word dei (pronounced "day"). While its primary meaning is "it is necessary", it also conveys the meaning "one ought to".
While God has provided us a means to worship Him by way of Spirit, in tongues, and people who understand that ought to do it, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, and God is more than willing to accept peoples' prayers in whatever way they understand to pray, out of a genuine heart.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
In a sense..
With God being spirit..
and one seeking God in spirit and truth.. are you not trying to communicate with God as, what is the human word.. a peer?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
Not as His peer, as in equal to (as Lucifer thought) , but made out of the "stuff" of God.
Our bodies and minds and hearts and souls were made after the image of God. We were made in His image, not only spirit, but all of us is in His image -- we love as He loves, we feel as He feels. People do talk to God. That spirit infuses us and gives life to all our flesh and soul is capable of communicating with the Lord in infinite ways other than speaking in tongues. It's the presence of the spirit which gives life to us.
I remember the blind man who was given his sight, and when questioned further by the Pharisees, said, "... and you also would worship Him?" They could not worship the Lord Jesus because the Holy Spirit was not alive in them. That spirit, the comforter, the spirit of truth, guides us into all truth, which is Jesus. He makes known the Lord Jesus to us. I know it's the Holy Spirit if it reveals the Lord Jesus to me, in scripture and in His presence in the earth (the face of Jesus is often shown to me in people who show Him forth in that part of Him they know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Thank you for this wonderful thought. I can't say that I can't agree more..
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Kit Sober
Thanks so much. :)/>
Holy Spirit, with comfort and wisdom, He brings peace to us as well (so we can fight the adversary, rather than each other) :)/>
Often I think, "Pass the ammunition," and now I am beginning to see that the ammunition with which we are loaded is kindness. Who woulda thought?
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.