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These are just questions/thoughts that don't necessarily lend themselves to threads of their own. Please feel free to chime in.

Why don't we know the name of Noah's wife? She's got as much claim to being the mother of all living as Eve.

In Genesis 4:17, Cain gets to work building a city. Umm. A CITY. Umm. WHY?!?!?! Why does a family of three need a city?

Noah was 600 years old when the Flood came. How old were his sons? His daughters-in-law had to be young enough to still bear children, right? So... were these... really, really, really, REALLY old men knocking boots with teenagers and chicks in their 20s and 30s? Because ewww.

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Jesus was tempted in all points like as we. We are tempted to commit illicit sex, including adultery (in a man's case, sex with a married woman). Jesus must have been tempted to commit adultery. But Jesus said looking on a woman lustfully in one's heart (which is to say, being tempted to commit adultery) IS adultery. So ... Jesus committed adultery (in his heart)? Or he wasn't tempted with adultery (which invalidates the premise that he was tempted IN ALL POINTS like as we)?

Edited by Raf
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In Genesis 36:31 we read: "These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned."

Pay close attention to those last five words. Do they not presume that this is being written at a time AFTER there were kings in Israel? How could Moses have written that? Moses died centuries before Israel had a king. Why would he write "before any Israelite king reigned" when no Israelite king reigned until he was long dead?

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Miscellaneous comments. It takes the right kind of personality, to wake up one fine morning, find everything one believes is just plain wrong, or unexplainable.. and end up playing nice in this existence..

:biglaugh:

Other than that. What is the possibility that one can get even with the Whole Universe?

:biglaugh:

Very good questions, Raph..

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Jesus was tempted in all points like as we. We are tempted to commit illicit sex, including adultery (in a man's case, sex with a married woman). Jesus must have been tempted to commit adultery. But Jesus said looking on a woman lustfully in one's heart (which is to say, being tempted to commit adultery) IS adultery. So ... Jesus committed adultery (in his heart)? Or he wasn't tempted with adultery (which invalidates the premise that he was tempted IN ALL POINTS like as we)?

IIRC,

a guy we call Raf once made the point that Jesus was using a legitimate figure of

speech- exaggeration- to make his point about adultery, which his audience understood.

(He wasn't literally telling people to forgive exactly 490 times, either.)

Regarding cities, I've seen the "mid-cities" of Texas between Dallas and Ft Worth.

They're considered "cities" but I'd consider them something more like big towns.

(I consider all of them collectively to make a "mid-city" but that's just me.)

Technically, they are cities, just not on the scale I am used to.

Cain was sentenced to be a wanderer and alone. Eventually, he tried to

cancel that out, and he did so by building a big place and trying to get people

to come to him instead of the other way around, as I see it.

They didn't NEED a city, he WANTED a city.

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IIRC,

a guy we call Raf once made the point that Jesus was using a legitimate figure of

speech- exaggeration- to make his point about adultery, which his audience understood.

(He wasn't literally telling people to forgive exactly 490 times, either.)

Ah, yes. That seemed to be a perfectly valid explanation. But I had failed to consider that coveting your neighbor's wife is itself a sin (the only sin in the Ten Commandments 1.0 that didn't actually involve DOING anything, just wanting. Thous shalt not WANNA). So Jesus' statement on adultery, by itself, may have made more sense as an example of hyperbole, but you have to ignore an actual (non-obscure, right there in the Big 10) commandment to posit that Jesus was employing a figure of speech here. If you can break one of the 10 Commandments without sinning, it's not much of a commandment, is it?

Regarding cities, I've seen the "mid-cities" of Texas between Dallas and Ft Worth.

They're considered "cities" but I'd consider them something more like big towns.

(I consider all of them collectively to make a "mid-city" but that's just me.)

Technically, they are cities, just not on the scale I am used to.

And they all have a LOT of people (and by a lot, I'm being relative... A Lot, as opposed to, say, three. Or one growing family).

Cain was sentenced to be a wanderer and alone. Eventually, he tried to

cancel that out, and he did so by building a big place and trying to get people

to come to him instead of the other way around, as I see it.

They didn't NEED a city, he WANTED a city.

I guess extrapolating is okay, but the point needs to be made: you do realize that nothing in the Bible even hints at such a motive?

Edited by Raf
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Ah, yes. That seemed to be a perfectly valid explanation. But I had failed to consider that coveting your neighbor's wife is itself a sin (the only sin in the Ten Commandments 1.0 that didn't actually involve DOING anything, just wanting. Thous shalt not WANNA). So Jesus' statement on adultery, by itself, may have made more sense as an example of hyperbole, but you have to ignore an actual (non-obscure, right there in the Big 10) commandment to posit that Jesus was employing a figure of speech here. If you can break one of the 10 Commandments without sinning, it's not much of a commandment, is it?

When I have some time, I can look into the phrasing.

What we're thinking of as "coveting" (looking at her with desire)

might not be what they thought as "coveting."

I'll know better after I look things up.

(They might have meant EXACTLY what we mean, which would be inconvenient for me,

but at least I'd know.)

I guess extrapolating is okay, but the point needs to be made: you do realize that nothing in the Bible even hints at such a motive?

The question isn't "would he make a city?" but "WHY would he make a city?"

Here's what we have, courtesy the NASB: Genesis 4:12-17.

"12 When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to bear! 14 Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 So the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.

16 Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son."

So, we have that he made the city, which was VERY peculiar at the time.

Without a specific verse saying "therefore he made a city", we look at his mindset at

the time, his goals, his obstacles, and his life in general. We have very little to

work with.

What we have is

1) he won't be a successful farmer henceforth (he had been a farmer)

2) he will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the Earth, adrift, without a home (this troubled him to a degree)

3) the Presence of God would be hidden from Cain (which troubled him to a degree)

4) Cain thought whoever found him would kill him like he killed Abel (God addressed that one)

So, with #4 no longer a concern, we have 1-3. Cain's reason would likely be one, two, or all of them.

(I have no guarantee of this, but if I were a profiler, I'd be working from this as my speculative model.)

Cain was hidden from the Presence of God- which could make him feel lonely, adrift.

Cain was pronounced to be a vagrant and wanderer, a loner-which could make him feel lonely, adrift.

Cain would need another way to get food or income other than farming- like raising cattle or

taking up a trade depending on how many customers he could find.

Despite the pronouncement, Cain was not forced to walk the Earth indefinitely, and was permitted to

make his own choice, pick a spot of land, and settle down. To a degree, this would aid his attempt

to do a job requiring a location-like raising cattle, farming (which he can't do himself), or

practicing a crafting trade.

Frankly, why WOULDN'T he pick a spot and settle down? He was already outside God's good graces,

and starting up some kind of town would alleviate problems 2 & 3.

I have no guarantee they're why he did it, but humans haven't changed so much in the intervening

centuries that his motives would be alien to us.

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So lusting after another man's wife may not meet the threshold of coveting, in other words. Yeah, that would work.

Cain building a city makes no sense on any level, unless we're going to severely dilute the definition of city. Just seems odd to build something that implies a growing society when the number of people on earth is, at most, in the double digits -- and none of the other people want anything to do with you. But okay.

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So lusting after another man's wife may not meet the threshold of coveting, in other words. Yeah, that would work.

Remind me to actually check at some point.

Cain building a city makes no sense on any level, unless we're going to severely dilute the definition of city.

Or look at it the other way-

why didn't we come up with new names for where people live when we're talking MILLIONS,

but rather used the same name for what was used for THOUSANDS?

We can't ask people in the past to retroactively use a different name, but we can ask

the current people to use a new one. References written in the 19th and 20th century

to envelopes shipped are "mail", after all, not "snail-mail" even though we've started

calling it that now....

Just seems odd to build something that implies a growing society when the number of people on earth is, at most, in the double digits -- and none of the other people want anything to do with you. But okay.

"If you build it, they will come."

I really am not privy to what other people were like around Cain over the years.

I do know that people will try new things if they think there's a benefit-

or can be convinced there's a benefit. Lacking any details about Enoch City,

I have no certainity as to WHY anyone would have moved there. I think it's

logical people moved there because they visited there and decided to move there.

Why did they decide to move there based on a visit? There was some advantage-

whether economic (trade is easier), social (all the entertainment and interaction

is here), or some other kind. Besides, I think you're thinking of both a modern-sized

city sprung up all at once, and a busy month or something, when I expect this took

decades and produced something they considered a city but we wouldn't by current

standards. I think they went from a few people to dozens to hundreds to over 1000,

in steps and with things being expanded periodically.

Of course, again, it's all my thinking, but I think it's not unsound or unreasonable at least.

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I just finished reading The First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne Mayor (Princeton University Press, 2000). In it, Mayor examines the impact that fossils made as part of culture in antiquity. The first part of the book shows how people in antiquity interpreted the protoceratopsian fossils of the Gobi Desert as griffins. She shows how their observations were more scientific than anything that was done before the nineteenth century, given the cultural paradigms of the time.

After that, she goes into the geology and archaeology of the Mediterranean, comparing modern findings with those of antiquity. Due to a number of factors, the fossilized bones that turned up around the Mediterranean were not predominantly dinosaur fossils, but the remains of later mega mammals like mammoths, giant giraffes, rhinocerii, etc. And their skeletons were not likely to be preserved complete, but rather in assemblages of bones like the femurs and skulls, which look remarkably like their human counterparts.

So the ancients interpreted the fossils as the remains of heroes (NOT gods) and giants who had perished in the Gigantomachy or as a result of Deucalion's flood. They gave the fossils reverent reburials, or displayed them as relics in the temples.

It was common knowledge, all around the Mediterranean, that there had been giants in the past who had become extinct, because their bones were being exposed by erosion or plowing or other excavation on a regular basis.

Mayor concerns herself with the references in Graeco-Roman sources to fossils, and how they were regarded. She does not mention Genesis 6:4a, "There were giants in the earth in those days," but it's easy to see why the writer would put it in the Bible... it was common knowledge! EVERYBODY knew it! Genesis would seem pretty doofus if it didn't include the explanation for what the peasants and well diggers were coming up with!

Your questions would make a lot of sense, Raf, if the Bible were the kind of Post-Reformation/Enlightenment document that systematic theology, especially Fundamentalist/Evangelistic theology, makes it out to be. And Wierwille's "fits like a hand in a glove" system was blinder than most.

But it just ain't!

Love,

Steve

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(snip)

Mayor concerns herself with the references in Graeco-Roman sources to fossils, and how they were regarded. She does not mention Genesis 6:4a, "There were giants in the earth in those days," but it's easy to see why the writer would put it in the Bible... it was common knowledge! EVERYBODY knew it! Genesis would seem pretty doofus if it didn't include the explanation for what the peasants and well diggers were coming up with!

(snip)

Or, you know,

the well-meaning but none-too-smart King James staff mucked it up again.

Where they put "giants," most translations leave it "nephilim".

Literally, "fallers", but,as Strong's Concordance could tell you,

properly translated "bully" or "tyrant".

The KJV guys mangled a translation of a word, and someone came along and

made all sorts of doctrines about it. This is the same bunch who translated

"hagios" as "holy thing" in one place instead of "holy one" like in other

places and then vpw came along and formed a whole doctrine around it.

Then again,

maybe the KJV folks figured the translation had to be fantastical to

account for the bones you mentioned, since they were sure those were

giant bones and so that justified a fantastical translation of a rather

mundane word.

When shaving, remember Ockham's Razor...

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Umm. What giant bones?

The fossilized bones Steve just mentioned. I was taking it as a given that they existed

and were found and discussed as he said. Was that an unwarranted assumption?

(snip)

After that, she goes into the geology and archaeology of the Mediterranean, comparing modern findings with those of antiquity. Due to a number of factors, the fossilized bones that turned up around the Mediterranean...

(snip)

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Uhh, YEAH that's an unwarranted assumption!

Well, I can't argue that.

This, then, would be the cue for Steve to support his claim or withdraw it.

Or, you know,

the well-meaning but none-too-smart King James staff mucked it up again.

Where they put "giants," most translations leave it "nephilim".

Literally, "fallers", but,as Strong's Concordance could tell you,

properly translated "bully" or "tyrant".

The KJV guys mangled a translation of a word, and someone came along and

made all sorts of doctrines about it. This is the same bunch who translated

"hagios" as "holy thing" in one place instead of "holy one" like in other

places and then vpw came along and formed a whole doctrine around it.

(snip)

When shaving, remember Ockham's Razor...

Removing any reference to it, then, brings me back to my previous point

about being more concerned with sloppy translators and the simple expedient

of correcting a translation rather than some exposition circling around

a more colorful claim.

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Ok, it took me a few readings to understand both what Steve is saying and what the author he cited is saying.

No one is saying that the bones of nephilim were found either recently or in antiquity. Mayor posits that the ancients found fossilized bones and interpreted them incorrectly, assuming because of some superficial similarity to human bones that these were the bones of giants.

Look carefully at what Steve says:

Due to a number of factors, the fossilized bones that turned up around the Mediterranean were not predominantly dinosaur fossils, but the remains of later mega mammals like mammoths, giant giraffes, rhinocerii, etc. And their skeletons were not likely to be preserved complete, but rather in assemblages of bones like the femurs and skulls, which look remarkably like their human counterparts.

So the ancients interpreted the fossils as the remains of heroes (NOT gods) and giants who had perished in the Gigantomachy or as a result of Deucalion's flood.

Emphases mine.

I dispute the word choice Steve's next comment:

It was common knowledge, all around the Mediterranean, that there had been giants in the past who had become extinct, because their bones were being exposed by erosion or plowing or other excavation on a regular basis.

It was not "common knowledge." It was widespread myth, based on the misinterpretations of the excavated bones.

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It was a poor word choice. Someone reading fast might have come away with the idea

that indisputed fossils of human giant skeletons had been uncovered and were being

found all over the place.

("All over the place" is probably an exaggeration of what happened, but that is

what Steve was saying.)

It may or may not have been BELIEVED that the fossils being found were human

giant skeletons. If the fossils were being found.

My comment was that-- if well-meaning and gullible translators thought that

giant skeletons were uncovered- that they would have mistranslated the

nephilim references because they THOUGHT the fantastical translation was

correct and referring to the fantastical remains of fantastical creatures.

Either way, I think the evidence is that the translators goofed for some reason

and ended up with a fantastical reference there rather than a more direct

translation, and gullible people ran with it.

We got the same thing when the Septuagint's "monokeros" (one-horn) was

transliterated into the Latin "unicorn" (one-horn) rather than the powerful

animal it sounded like it described- the "rhinoceros" (nose-horn.)

Then people came along and thought it was describing a horse with a horn,

and all sorts of hijinks ensued.

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So maybe Cain was just building different edifices where he and his family could accomplish different tasks, and the Biblical writer chose a word, "city," in a very, very loose manner. You and I would probably say he built a farm, and recognizing that he would need more than one or two people to work on it, built other houses to lure his nephews and nieces to help him out. Viola (sic)! A city!

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No need to be cheeky. I'm speaking plainly here.

So maybe Cain was just building different edifices where he and his family could accomplish different tasks, and the Biblical writer chose a word, "city," in a very, very loose manner.

Theoretically possible, but nobody's claiming that one.

Cain set out specifically to make a place for as many people as he could convince to congregate.

This has never been an impossible task in history, so the question as to if it would work

in THIS place and time would be if he had what it would take to attract them to the location,

and the materials and help to put it in place.

The word "city" wouldn't have been used in "a very, very loose manner."

It would have been used in the manner it had been at the time, and only the last few

centuries have caused the word to mean something different now-

something many times bigger and more crowded than it used to mean.

It would have been easily the biggest congregation of homes and businesses at the time,

and could have set the standard for later "cities" to build upon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#Distinction_between_cities_and_towns

"Even within the English-speaking world there is no one standard definition of a city: the term may be used either for a town possessing city status; for an urban locality exceeding an arbitrary population size; for a town dominating other towns with particular regional economic or administrative significance."

If you take a look, even in modern practice, in several countries, the words "city" and "town" are used

interchangeably in practice. In fact, in the US of A, the "town" of Hempstead, New York has a population

(2004 census figure) of 755,785, and the "city" of Cary, North Carolina has a population (2000 census figure)

of 296.

I don't see it as a jump that Cain would set himself a long-term task of making a large settlement,

and eventually getting more than 296 permanent residents.

You and I would probably say he built a farm, and recognizing that he would need more than one or two people to work on it, built other houses to lure his nephews and nieces to help him out. Viola (sic)! A city!

No, I'd say he set out to build a "town" (as I envision a "town"), and eventually succeeded

in building the needed parts (I have no background in civil engineering nor town planning,

so I don't know what it would entail now nor then.) During that time, he set about making

it something to attract others to visit, then settle in.

Decades later, a city. (Or "town", as you and I picture it.)

I would expect more than 296 permanent residents.

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