There is a rather large cult of motorcycle riders in the USA. They wear special uniforms so you'll know who they are. Many of their activities are already illegal but the group still exists and flourishes. I'm just tossing that out there for thought.
Good point . . . Although as far as I know most joined willingly? They were not bred, like religion is.
Once you join, you're in for life. If they then have kids, are the kids not also part of the group?
They could very well be in some ways.
A gang . . . based on a quick google search . . . collects funds illegally. This would lead back to the taxing idea. Pay taxes, less incentive for organized gimmicks . . . more leads for the law if necessary.
I could see removing tax exempt status from churches IF those statuses are allowed to remain for particular good things the churches do.
For example, a church that runs a food bank should be taxed, but the food bank itself should not.
But I'm MORE inclined to leave it alone.
***
Incidentally, I am sensitive to how easy it would be to become a one-note poster, and I'm trying not to do that. But on this thread with this topic, I think the following observation has a place:
As long as we're in a country that is religiously free, cults cannot be prevented from forming. Not by law, anyway.
As long as people believe in a god, they are susceptible to abuse from anyone believed to speak for that god.
This is not to say atheists are not susceptible to abuse. It just wouldn't come from a religious cult, per se.
I agree that in the USA we cannot prevent them from forming, but as many of us are trying to do, we can try to prevent people from joining cults. Does anyone else here know about ICSA? They try and educate. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS_hc5LO1HtMvoa8kRcLcig
I agree that in the USA we cannot prevent them from forming, but as many of us are trying to do, we can try to prevent people from joining cults. Does anyone else here know about ICSA? They try and educate. https://www.youtube....1HtMvoa8kRcLcig
I looked at that post-cult website; there was an introduction by 4 of them (lasts just over an hour) - they could have been us. Their cults chose different scripture verses to hang their hats on, but the treatment was just the same. And these are highly intelligent, well educated people - one even had several years seminary teaching before she got drawn into "her" cult.
Eating food risks death by food poisoning and disease. But there's laws and inspections to try and prevent that. People still eat and still die from it. Restaurants don't see inspections as an attack on the food industry.
Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?
Eating food risks death by food poisoning and disease. But there's laws and inspections to try and prevent that. People still eat and still die from it. Restaurants don't see inspections as an attack on the food industry.
Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?
Restaurant inspections usually have a clear, easily understood set of standards. (eg: Food must not be held below a specific temperature, etc.) Religious and philosophical beliefs are rarely as clearly defined. There is too much room for personal interpretation and subjectivity for regulation to be effective.(in my opinion)
As long as we live in a free country with freedom of religion we are subject to the possibility of some of these religions being cults. The alternative is control of these religions by the state for our own good which results in no freedom at all.
"Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?"
A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'? ... You see the problem here?
And how about this possibility?
Religions = cults
Think about it. ;-)
Wordwolf, what you said about politics is _dead on_. (y) (y)
"Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?"
A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'? :wink2:/> ... You see the problem here?
And how about this possibility?
Religions = cults
Think about it. ;-)
Wordwolf, what you said about politics is _dead on_. (y) (y)
Hi Garth,
Rightly dividing? What is that? Who does that ever?
What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it.
Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool. cult = family
"Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?"
A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'? ... You see the problem here?
And how about this possibility?
Religions = cults
Think about it. ;-)
Wordwolf, what you said about politics is _dead on_. (y) (y)
I just downloaded a Kindle book written by a former fellow 13th Corps brother of mine, Rand Burkey, which was published in 2011. His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984, but he had already left the Way Corps by then, but not TWI. He paints a very accurate picture of his time in-residence and at the Way HQ our interim year. It is also available in hardback and paperback on Amazon. I have not gotten to the part where he becomes a crusader against the Way and similar cults, but that is part of what he does now, I understand. The book is called DELIVERED FROM DECEPTION.
"His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984" -- And you still wonder why people like me still rail on against 'the science of mind control'. ... Deprogramming? You haven't gotten beyond that failed (and often illegal) tactic? Are you serious?
And what deception did that entail, hhmmm?
Rocky, you _believe_ you were brainwashed, 'cause a book says you were? No proof. No proven science. Just a book telling that you were, and that's good enough for you? ... Look at what I said to Wordwolf about his point re politics being dead on. Tell me, which political party is the one that is the 'cult', hhmmm? ... Republicans? ... Democrats? (I think I can make a pretty good guess what your opinion would be. )
Bolshevik,
"What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point?
"Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool." -- True that.
What TWI did was lead us into a lifestyle that was based on self delusion and irrational thought.They specifically taught us a system that was designed to do exactly that.That's what session #5 #7 was about. Eve allowed herself to have independent thoughts. "Look what happened to her. You don't want that to happen to you, do you?" Then, it was enforced by classes like *Renewed Mind* and *Dealing With The Adversary* (along with countless examples in other classes and teachings). Those two classes had no real purpose other than to teach us a system we could use to independently delude ourselves. And, we weren't supposed to associate with people who thought differently than us. Why?, because it weakened our ability to maintain the delusion. You don't have to call it a cult or brainwashing if you don't want to but that doesn't change what they did.
If you see a friend or relative who wants to buy or use a product you know to be harmful, you can't put electrodes on their forehead to get them to stop or physically reach inside their head to change their thoughts. The best you can do is to offer rational enlightenment and initiate logical discussion. That's how you prevent cults or at least that's how you stunt their growth on a small level.
"What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point?
. . .
No they don't, yes they do, no they don't, yes they do, . . . ad infinitum.
What TWI did was lead us into a lifestyle that was based on self delusion and irrational thought.They specifically taught us a system that was designed to do exactly that.That's what session #5 was about. Eve allowed herself to have independent thoughts. "Look what happened to her. You don't want that to happen to you, do you?" Then, it was enforced by classes like *Renewed Mind* and *Dealing With The Adversary* (along with countless examples in other classes and teachings). Those two classes had no real purpose other than to teach us a system we could use to independently delude ourselves. And, we weren't supposed to associate with people who thought differently than us. Why?, because it weakened our ability to maintain the delusion. You don't have to call it a cult or brainwashing if you don't want to but that doesn't change what they did.
If you see a friend or relative who wants to buy or use a product you know to be harmful, you can't put electrodes on their forehead to get them to stop or physically reach inside their head to change their thoughts. The best you can do is to offer rational enlightenment and initiate logical discussion. That's how you prevent cults or at least that's how you stunt their growth on a small level.
It sounds like people who are isolated already are the easiest targets?
I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this... As well as teaching proper debating techniques. How to recognize fallacious arguments and premises...
I didn't develop any of that until I left TWI.
Plus, it would help with all of the stupid things people share on the interwebs. I could cut down on my Snopes link posting.
I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this... As well as teaching proper debating techniques. How to recognize fallacious arguments and premises...
I didn't develop any of that until I left TWI.
Plus, it would help with all of the stupid things people share on the interwebs. I could cut down on my Snopes link posting.
In a perfect world...
I wholeheartedly agree. TWI didn't simply fail to teach these skills, they actively and vigorously discouraged them.
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Rocky
Preach it, brother!
skyrider
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers. Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one
Tzaia
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first quest
Bolshevik
Good point . . . Although as far as I know most joined willingly? They were not bred, like religion is.
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waysider
Once you join, you're in for life. If they then have kids, are the kids not also part of the group?
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Bolshevik
They could very well be in some ways.
A gang . . . based on a quick google search . . . collects funds illegally. This would lead back to the taxing idea. Pay taxes, less incentive for organized gimmicks . . . more leads for the law if necessary.
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penworks
I agree that in the USA we cannot prevent them from forming, but as many of us are trying to do, we can try to prevent people from joining cults. Does anyone else here know about ICSA? They try and educate. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS_hc5LO1HtMvoa8kRcLcig
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Rocky
Thanks for that link. This video clip, "
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Twinky
I looked at that post-cult website; there was an introduction by 4 of them (lasts just over an hour) - they could have been us. Their cults chose different scripture verses to hang their hats on, but the treatment was just the same. And these are highly intelligent, well educated people - one even had several years seminary teaching before she got drawn into "her" cult.
I've bookmarked the site for further reference.
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Rocky
I just found this book which may provide key insight on the topic of this thread: Brainwashing: the science of thought control.
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GarthP2000
And that's the risk you take ...
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Bolshevik
Eating food risks death by food poisoning and disease. But there's laws and inspections to try and prevent that. People still eat and still die from it. Restaurants don't see inspections as an attack on the food industry.
Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?
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waysider
Restaurant inspections usually have a clear, easily understood set of standards. (eg: Food must not be held below a specific temperature, etc.) Religious and philosophical beliefs are rarely as clearly defined. There is too much room for personal interpretation and subjectivity for regulation to be effective.(in my opinion)
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WordWolf
Demagoguery and fanaticism are not exclusive to religion.
People should think for themselves when approaching LIFE,
not just religion. That means they should be careful
about POLITICS as well as any other interactions.
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outandabout
As long as we live in a free country with freedom of religion we are subject to the possibility of some of these religions being cults. The alternative is control of these religions by the state for our own good which results in no freedom at all.
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GarthP2000
"Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?"
A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'?
... You see the problem here?
And how about this possibility?
Religions = cults
Think about it. ;-)
Wordwolf, what you said about politics is _dead on_. (y) (y)
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Bolshevik
Hi Garth,
Rightly dividing? What is that? Who does that ever?
What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it.
Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool. cult = family
Appreciate your input. Have a good evening.
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Rocky
Brainwashing
Guess what fellow former wayfers, it appears we were brainwashed.
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DogLover
I just downloaded a Kindle book written by a former fellow 13th Corps brother of mine, Rand Burkey, which was published in 2011. His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984, but he had already left the Way Corps by then, but not TWI. He paints a very accurate picture of his time in-residence and at the Way HQ our interim year. It is also available in hardback and paperback on Amazon. I have not gotten to the part where he becomes a crusader against the Way and similar cults, but that is part of what he does now, I understand. The book is called DELIVERED FROM DECEPTION.
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GarthP2000
"His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984" -- And you still wonder why people like me still rail on against 'the science of mind control'. ... Deprogramming? You haven't gotten beyond that failed (and often illegal) tactic? Are you serious?
And what deception did that entail, hhmmm?
Rocky, you _believe_ you were brainwashed, 'cause a book says you were? No proof. No proven science. Just a book telling that you were, and that's good enough for you? ... Look at what I said to Wordwolf about his point re politics being dead on. Tell me, which political party is the one that is the 'cult', hhmmm? ... Republicans? ... Democrats? (I think I can make a pretty good guess what your opinion would be.
)
Bolshevik,
"What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point?
"Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool." -- True that.
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waysider
What TWI did was lead us into a lifestyle that was based on self delusion and irrational thought.They specifically taught us a system that was designed to do exactly that.That's what session #5 #7 was about. Eve allowed herself to have independent thoughts. "Look what happened to her. You don't want that to happen to you, do you?" Then, it was enforced by classes like *Renewed Mind* and *Dealing With The Adversary* (along with countless examples in other classes and teachings). Those two classes had no real purpose other than to teach us a system we could use to independently delude ourselves. And, we weren't supposed to associate with people who thought differently than us. Why?, because it weakened our ability to maintain the delusion. You don't have to call it a cult or brainwashing if you don't want to but that doesn't change what they did.
If you see a friend or relative who wants to buy or use a product you know to be harmful, you can't put electrodes on their forehead to get them to stop or physically reach inside their head to change their thoughts. The best you can do is to offer rational enlightenment and initiate logical discussion. That's how you prevent cults or at least that's how you stunt their growth on a small level.
edit: session #7, not #5
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Bolshevik
No they don't, yes they do, no they don't, yes they do, . . . ad infinitum.
You through in the scientific method. Why?
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Bolshevik
It sounds like people who are isolated already are the easiest targets?
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waysider
I don't know if they're the easiest targets but isolation certainly enhances the process.
edit: spelling
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JavaJane
I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this... As well as teaching proper debating techniques. How to recognize fallacious arguments and premises...
I didn't develop any of that until I left TWI.
Plus, it would help with all of the stupid things people share on the interwebs. I could cut down on my Snopes link posting.
In a perfect world...
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waysider
I wholeheartedly agree. TWI didn't simply fail to teach these skills, they actively and vigorously discouraged them.
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GarthP2000
You didn't read what I said, have you? That's not what I said at all. ... Haven't drunk your coffee yet? |_|P ... ;-)
"I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this."
Bingo! ... :-D
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