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Bolshevik
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A-n-n-d-d who will be entrusted to do that, ... hhmmm? What scientific method do you use to determine 'brainwashing'? What 'brainwashing' is? What _proper_ doctrine determines this? How is it 'rightly divided'? :wink2:/> ... You see the problem here?

It looked like you wrote this, Garth. You mentioned a scientific method. And rightly dividing.

You're alluding to something?

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I wholeheartedly agree. TWI didn't simply fail to teach these skills, they actively and vigorously discouraged them.

I don't believe the skills are taught anywhere on a consistent basis. I didn't know what a "straw man" or a "false equivalency" was until I landed here on GSC.

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"His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984" -- And you still wonder why people like me still rail on against 'the science of mind control'. ... Deprogramming? You haven't gotten beyond that failed (and often illegal) tactic? Are you serious?

And what deception did that entail, hhmmm?

Rocky, you _believe_ you were brainwashed, 'cause a book says you were? No proof. No proven science. Just a book telling that you were, and that's good enough for you? ... Look at what I said to Wordwolf about his point re politics being dead on. Tell me, which political party is the one that is the 'cult', hhmmm? ... Republicans? ... Democrats? (I think I can make a pretty good guess what your opinion would be. wink2.gif )

Bolshevik,

"What does law have to do with the scientific method? It's Law. Religion and science often bow to it." -- No they don't, nor even should they always. ... So what's your point?

"Religion is in the mind. Just a facade, a tool." -- True that.

Did I say "the book says you were brainwashed?"

The book describes and details the science behind the phenomenon. It didn't tell me anything about me or our experience.

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I still believe that teaching critical thinking skills as part of public education would help a lot of this... As well as teaching proper debating techniques. How to recognize fallacious arguments and premises...

I didn't develop any of that until I left TWI.

Plus, it would help with all of the stupid things people share on the interwebs. I could cut down on my Snopes link posting.

In a perfect world...

Excellent point.

Here's a free (except for the time required to read, watch lecture videos and complete assignments) and convenient way to begin exploring how to recognize fallacies and develop critical thinking skills.

MOOC on Coursera.org:Think Again -- How to Reason and Argue.

It looked like you wrote this, Garth. You mentioned a scientific method. And rightly dividing.

You're alluding to something?

I don't know what Garth may have been getting at, but Brainwashing HAS been scientifically explored. That's what's in the book, the link to which I posted in a previous comment.

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I simply don't see how anyone could have manipulated us into doing the insane things we did and accepting such a bizarre lifestyle without somehow modifying our thoughts and behavior. You don't have to call it brainwashing if the term makes you uncomfortable but something happened to us that mere enthusiasm and devotion can't explain.

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I simply don't see how anyone could have manipulated us into doing the insane things we did and accepting such a bizarre lifestyle without somehow modifying our thoughts and behavior. You don't have to call it brainwashing if the term makes you uncomfortable but something happened to us that mere enthusiasm and devotion can't explain.

How's this? When certain people accept instructions that a church/group/*CULT* :-) gives, with _them_ it isn't called 'brainwashing', because it is the kind of instruction that _they_ chose to accept. (And they _did_ chose to accept it, coercion and all even.)

When _they_ chose not to accept it / chose to throw it away, _then_ it became 'brainwashing'. To them. ... This happens all the time; be it with fringe 'cults' or mainstream churches, and anywhere in between. ... The cult term _used_ to be a (more or less) neutral term. It now has become a matter of opinion; personal, highly-charged emotional, _loaded_ opinion.

Why can't you accept the fact that at one time in your life _you_ chose to believe those stupid and strange beliefs, and at a later time in your life _you_ rightfully saw them as stupid. ... _You_ were devoted to them. _You_ were excited about them. Now you are no longer. Simple as that. ... Take responsibility for what you chose to believe. And for what you chose to throw away.

Now, does that absolve any and all blame from Wierwille and Co. _NO_! They are the ones to BLAME. For all the abuse. ... Note the difference.

We accepted TWI beliefs. Strange, stupid, weird, loaded with conspiracies, etc., etc. And coupled with "You are going to suffer at the hands of GOD/Satan if you do not comply." like threats. ... Ok, there was coercion. That I'll accept. That did happen. ... So did similar coercion happen in more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches. ... Yet, many of us got out on our own. (Ok, many of us were thrown out. Much like more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches as well.) ... More evidence that fundamentalist thought = cult mentality?

And yet many people left those groups on their own, as well, ... did they not?

Anyway, we're going in circles, so I think I'll bow out. ... _Believe_ what you will.

Peace!

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Garth

I don't really think we are in disagreement on most of this. It is true I made the decision to do many of the things I did in TWI, including taking "the class" and entering FellowLaborers.

At the local level, it was much easier to think for yourself. If you didn't want to do this or that, you simply didn't do it. But, once you became entrenched in a so-called training program (freely avail yourself), however, everything changed. You didn't make most of the decisions, they were made for you, what time you awoke, when you slept, what, when and how much you ate, who you could socialize with, who you could date (and ultimately marry.... this one was implied , not directly ordered.), what disagreements you could vocalize without repercussions, what creative impulses you could act on and so on. If you failed to comply you were out the door. And, they painted a very, VERY dismal picture of what your life would be if you ever left. (a grease spot by midnight)

When you're sleep deprived and hungry most of the time, for long periods of time, you begin to lose your desire for confrontation. You just want to do whatever makes the situation more bearable. Instead of looking at the big picture, you look at life and the future from a very narrow perspective.

Now, maybe that's not what brainwashing is. I don't know. I do know it's no way to live unless you can delude yourself into believing that compliance is the answer.

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How's this? When certain people accept instructions that a church/group/*CULT* :-) gives, with _them_ it isn't called 'brainwashing', because it is the kind of instruction that _they_ chose to accept. (And they _did_ chose to accept it, coercion and all even.)

When _they_ chose not to accept it / chose to throw it away, _then_ it became 'brainwashing'. To them. ... This happens all the time; be it with fringe 'cults' or mainstream churches, and anywhere in between. ... The cult term _used_ to be a (more or less) neutral term. It now has become a matter of opinion; personal, highly-charged emotional, _loaded_ opinion.

Why can't you accept the fact that at one time in your life _you_ chose to believe those stupid and strange beliefs, and at a later time in your life _you_ rightfully saw them as stupid. ... _You_ were devoted to them. _You_ were excited about them. Now you are no longer. Simple as that. ... Take responsibility for what you chose to believe. And for what you chose to throw away.

Now, does that absolve any and all blame from Wierwille and Co. _NO_! They are the ones to BLAME. For all the abuse. ... Note the difference.

We accepted TWI beliefs. Strange, stupid, weird, loaded with conspiracies, etc., etc. And coupled with "You are going to suffer at the hands of GOD/Satan if you do not comply." like threats. ... Ok, there was coercion. That I'll accept. That did happen. ... So did similar coercion happen in more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches. ... Yet, many of us got out on our own. (Ok, many of us were thrown out. Much like more mainstream yet fundamentalist churches as well.) ... More evidence that fundamentalist thought = cult mentality?

And yet many people left those groups on their own, as well, ... did they not?

Anyway, we're going in circles, so I think I'll bow out. ... _Believe_ what you will.

Peace!

As you suggest, we were complicit. That's indisputable. But Garth, how much study of the science of brainwashing have you done?

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As you suggest, we were complicit. That's indisputable. But Garth, how much study of the science of brainwashing have you done?

Basically from my own observations and thinking. But then again, I never said I was an expert, did I? But I do expect common sense and consistency, plus a scientific-like basis that isn't as loaded as the 'mind control' it talks about. Plus where terms like 'mind control' and 'cult' isn't selectively applied in a controlling-like manner; Ie., "You were in a cult, and you cannot decide to leave on your own.", stuff like that.

Largely, you're right. I'm not an 'expert', and I'd dare say neither are you. But IMNSHO, there are some significant holes in their argument; enough to cause doubt. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. Ie., I think this field is based more on opinion than many people realize. Like for example, people who determine what a 'cult' is based on their religious beliefs, ... which really should have no bearing on the psychological field of 'mind control', hhmmm?

And how many psychological experts themselves challenge the 'mind control' concept, hhmmm? Sorry, but I don't think that the field, and in its _infancy_, is solid enough to totally trust yet. Ie., it still needs debugging. ... Again, my opinion.

Clear as mud yet? :biglaugh:

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How's this? ... YOU'RE GONNA BUR** --Wait a minute. Just kidding. Lemme try again. :-)

But seriously, let's just agree to disagree. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. And that is about as close that we're gonna get, Ok?

Peace, and I'm serious about that. :beer:

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How's this? ... YOU'RE GONNA BUR** --Wait a minute. Just kidding. Lemme try again. :-)

But seriously, let's just agree to disagree. You have your opinion. I have my opinion. And that is about as close that we're gonna get, Ok?

Peace, and I'm serious about that. beer.gif

Indeed. But I would suggest that you'd find the book I linked to in an earlier comment to be interesting and would expand your insight on the subject.

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I just downloaded a Kindle book written by a former fellow 13th Corps brother of mine, Rand Burkey, which was published in 2011. His parents paid to have him deprogrammed in November 1984, but he had already left the Way Corps by then, but not TWI. He paints a very accurate picture of his time in-residence and at the Way HQ our interim year. It is also available in hardback and paperback on Amazon. I have not gotten to the part where he becomes a crusader against the Way and similar cults, but that is part of what he does now, I understand. The book is called DELIVERED FROM DECEPTION.

I just bought the book from Amazon and started reading it last night. It is always very interesting to read another account of the experience of a TWI "member" (since there were no members were there?) I enjoyed The Cult That Snapped and Losing the Way and I find this book very interesting as well. His descriptions of his thought processes at the time remind me of my own state of mind when I was in. It's a little disconcerting in a way but still fascinating.

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So, I'm readinga story this evening about documentarian Alex Gibney's latest project, an in-depth expose of Scientology, and found this paragraph:

"But he feels that the message of this film applies well beyond Scientology or any one organization. "You can see how abusive institutions get when they have a lot of power and money and when they become guided by a small group of people at the top, perhaps even one person," he says. And then there's a theme that resonates across any number of religions: "It's really hard-wired into all of us, the psychology of wanting to find certainty in faith that allows you to do the most reprehensible things because you believe the ends justify the means."

I REALLY like the expression "prison of belief." I think it describes cults very well... including the one we (here at gsc) have in common.

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And then there's a theme that resonates across any number of religions: "It's really hard-wired into all of us, the psychology of wanting to find certainty in faith that allows you to do the most reprehensible things because you believe the ends justify the means."

Direct hit, that one! :spy:

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  • 1 month later...

Why do we assume that brainwashing and choice are antithetical to each other?

I don't know that that is assumed. Choices can be illusions. Having no choice is a perception as well. That's a much larger discussion that I don't think there's an answer to.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't know that that is assumed. Choices can be illusions. Having no choice is a perception as well. That's a much larger discussion that I don't think there's an answer to.

I agree. I don't know that anyone was suggesting brainwashing and choice are antithetical.

As I mentioned in comment #41 in this thread, the book Brainwashing by Kathleen Taylor provides great insight.

For example, Taylor cites the work of Robert Lifton who has written about Eight Criteria for Thought Reform. (and cult formation)

  • Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
  • Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
  • Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
  • Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
  • Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
  • Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
  • Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
  • Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)

Whether or not any particular wayfer who never had direct experience in or with anyone in the way corpse experienced TWI as a cult is something I can't speak to with any degree of authority.

However, having spent a year in residence with the 9th wc, and having spent time as a wow ambassador, I can speak for my experience and give specific examples that reflect most, if not all, of the listed criteria.

1) Millieu Control. In residence WC had essentially zero access to popular culture or news. On "the WOW field" we had a small black and white television part of the time but I only remember watching an occasional sporting event. Some of which may not have been a bad thing, but during my 12 years (from ages 19-31) of twi involvement, I knew extremely little about what was going on in America.

2) Mystical manipulation WC (not just the 9th) were threatened with expulsion for lack of loyalty during training on multiple occasions. The ZERO Corpse actually had it carried out en masse. The whole thing was shut down because the entire group messed up. I have no idea whether the alleged infractions were legitimately any big deal, but I doubt it. The explanations for these threats were based on spontaneous spiritual guidance "from god." Which, of course, was total BS.

3) Demand for Purity really, is any other explanation necessary than Martindale's loyalty pledge requirement?

4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.

5) Sacred Science MOGFODAT. The Man of God for our Day and Time. Need I say more?

6) Loading the language codes and expressions that people outside of the cult wouldn't recognize or understand without explanation (indoctrination). e.g. SIT, Renewed Mind, SOGWAP, etc.

7) Doctrine over person "Sincerity is no guarantee for truth." Wierwille, about Are the Dead Alive Now specifically taught that people's experiences are wrong and not reflective of truth.

8) Dispensing of existence Mark and Avoid; anyone who left "the Household of God" would be a grease spot by midnight.

People, we were in an intentionally established cult and we were trained (by our own choice to accept the authority of Wierwille, PFLAP, the WC, Twig/Branch/Limb/Trunk leaders) to be obedient/compliant.

We WERE brainwashed.

The only antidote I know of at this point is development of critical thinking and emotional/social intelligence skills. This, of course, is somewhat problematic because many people grew up in families that did not know how to raise children who had critical thinking skills. And today in America, so much of Dominionism/Christian Nationalism is attacking and undermining the only other institution where kids generally have a chance to develop at least some of those skills -- public schools.

More at another time.

So, to Bolshevik's original question and issue on this thread, I believe that no authoritarian social system (government) declaration or law can directly prevent the formation and growth of cults. But individuals can, despite their upbringing, come to protect themselves from manipulation by others.

I hope you all are or can get on a path to develop such skills.

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So, Rocky, you pretty much assumee that stupidity prevails and you are our savior from it. Your warnings are appreciated. You are left with nothing brother. Is it possible to have beliefs, and fellowship without cult. Your speech is desperation, not really a warning. What do you seek.

Edited by Modgellan
(removed inapporopriate thread comment)
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So, Rocky, you pretty much assumee that stupidity prevails and you are our savior from it. Your warnings are appreciated. You are left with nothing brother. Is it possible to have beliefs, and fellowship without cult. Your speech is desperation, not really a warning. What do you seek.

I don't assume anything about you. I don't intend or pretend to be anyone's savior. Haven't for a long time.

Thanks for your input.

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I don't assume anything about you. I don't intend or pretend to be anyone's savior. Haven't for a long time.

Thanks for your input.

Rocky, I am here for assistance. I, nor do I think anyone else at this period in time, need assistance in avoiding or recovering from a cult, i.e., TWI. Are we not beyond that era of our lives or am I wrong, is GSC still a haven for understanding of the poor folk escaping TWI? I came here because I thought it harbored some minds that were knowledgable about the Bible, instead I have found mostly crying ex-corp folk who are unwilling to share knowledge and who would rather wollow in pitty for wrongs that are far in the past. Now I have asked, what do any of you enlightened ones know about the questions I have asked, starting with the REV by the STF. Yes, I am frustrated with you all, think of all the $ I sent to you while in the Corp, I want some pay back or are all of you corp folk incapable of that simple request or is it that you all just gave up, kids you still are.

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OFF TOPIC.:offtopic:/>/>

I really don't give two spits what you think about me or anything I write.

But you sure come off as insincere.

Rocky, et.al., I have been in the wrong forum, excuse the mistake. Regardless, all I said was sincere. Did I touch a nerve here, really, "two spits". If nothing matters anymore, than why give two spits, why even communicate with folks still in the search, any of us can deny as much as we want but fact/truth be, we are all in the hunt. Rocky, where do you get off calling anyone insincere when you yourself don't even care anymore, change your motto to: This Dog Don't Hunt. I never have run acrosse this many hardened folks, you can blame TWI for alot but you can't blame TWI for everthing that goes wrong in your life. INSINCERE - have not thought of the concept of that word in a long time, thanks for the reminder, I think it's alot like "Know thy self" Catch you in the correct forum. What do I know, I was never in the Way Corp.

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Rocky, et.al., I have been in the wrong forum, excuse the mistake. Regardless, all I said was sincere. Did I touch a nerve here, really, "two spits". If nothing matters anymore, than why give two spits, why even communicate with folks still in the search, any of us can deny as much as we want but fact/truth be, we are all in the hunt. Rocky, where do you get off calling anyone insincere when you yourself don't even care anymore, change your motto to: This Dog Don't Hunt. I never have run acrosse this many hardened folks, you can blame TWI for alot but you can't blame TWI for everthing that goes wrong in your life. INSINCERE - have not thought of the concept of that word in a long time, thanks for the reminder, I think it's alot like "Know thy self" Catch you in the correct forum. What do I know, I was never in the Way Corp.

:offtopic:/>

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"Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism."

MRAP

This (sacred science) is what you are seeking. It doesn't exist. If you stick around here long enough (and I hope you do.), what you will begin to realize is that PFAL and Way Theology in general have nothing special to offer that can't be found in other places. To begin with, PFAL was not a special body of knowledge, given to VPW so that he could "teach it like it hadn't been taught since the first century". It was really a hodge podge of plagiarized materials from people like Leonard, Bullinger, and on and on. Almost nothing in the class was original. Whole paragraphs, whole chapters, WHOLE BOOKS! were lifted from other sources that we, as young people were unfamiliar with. There are lots of threads here that can illustrate this for you. Just ask if there is something specific you want to know.

So, if it's Biblical knowledge you seek, there is a whole world of knowledge at your fingertips. The Way does not have any "exclusive" insight on the Bible. Compare TWI sources with outside sources and discover this for yourself.

Here's a thread you may enjoy. Fasten your seat belt.

And another

Edited by waysider
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