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revvel

a revelation

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revvel    0

By the time I left The Way, I was well aware of the 3 popular theories of Christ’s appearance for His church (those born again in His kingdom): Pre-tribulation (“signless Rapture”), mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation.

As with most in Christ’s kingdom, believers subscribed to one of the three—as did I. That was until the year 2000, when I experienced six weeks of divine intervention.

To cut to the chase: Peter, Paul, and John are in complete agreement and all three disagree with these 3 popular theories (as given). And their harmonious voice is founded upon a profound—yet grossly neglected—biblical truth established by the Son of God in the Gospels. That was “a revelation.”

From this biblical truth, this truth is evident: the Rapture, accompanied by dramatic heavenly and earthly signs, prior to the wrath, is sound doctrine.

This principle established by Christ in Gospels reveals a systematic approach to the Bible that has no exceptions. This applies to our salvation and future salvation.

Note: I thank God that Dr. Wierwille taught the pre-wrath Rapture.

I know Christ’s appearance is a highly controversial subject… disagreement could abound on this thread… but I will get to Christ’s precedent in the coming posts.

More next week.

revvel

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TLC    26
7 minutes ago, revvel said:

By the time I left The Way, I was well aware of the 3 popular theories of Christ’s appearance for His church

Well, if it matters to you, I was pretty well aware of them before ever hearing of TWI (or, as it was called back then, The Way.)

11 minutes ago, revvel said:

Peter, Paul, and John are in complete agreement and all three disagree with these 3 popular theories

Can't say that I agree with that, as I'm not convinced they were ever in complete agreement on some number of things.

15 minutes ago, revvel said:

And their harmonious voice is founded upon a profound—yet grossly neglected—biblical truth established by the Son of God in the Gospels.

I presume you'll eventually given chapter and verse (and a better explanation) along with that.

16 minutes ago, revvel said:

I know Christ’s appearance is a highly controversial subject… disagreement could abound on this thread…

Probably not, as this is in the doctrinal section.

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waysider    655
1 hour ago, revvel said:

 

Note: I thank God that Dr. Wierwille taught the pre-wrath Rapture.

 

Admittedly, this is a bit off topic (aside from establishing the credibility of a source), but you do realize he wasn't really a *Dr.*, don't you?

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revvel    0

Hi TLC.

Being raised Roman Catholic, frankly, I never heard of such theories. 

I will post next week from the Gospels.

revvel

 

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revvel    0

Hi Waysider,

Thanks for stopping by. 

I was aware of the "degree mill" stuff for the doctorate.

revvel

 

 

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13 hours ago, revvel said:

By the time I left The Way, I was well aware of the 3 popular theories of Christ’s appearance for His church (those born again in His kingdom): Pre-tribulation (“signless Rapture”), mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation.

As with most in Christ’s kingdom, believers subscribed to one of the three—as did I. That was until the year 2000, when I experienced six weeks of divine intervention.

To cut to the chase: Peter, Paul, and John are in complete agreement and all three disagree with these 3 popular theories (as given). And their harmonious voice is founded upon a profound—yet grossly neglected—biblical truth established by the Son of God in the Gospels. That was “a revelation.”

From this biblical truth, this truth is evident: the Rapture, accompanied by dramatic heavenly and earthly signs, prior to the wrath, is sound doctrine.

This principle established by Christ in Gospels reveals a systematic approach to the Bible that has no exceptions. This applies to our salvation and future salvation.

Note: I thank God that Dr. Wierwille taught the pre-wrath Rapture.

I know Christ’s appearance is a highly controversial subject… disagreement could abound on this thread… but I will get to Christ’s precedent in the coming posts.

More next week.

revvel

Hi revvel,

I once believed this also. However, after several years of my own study without TWI's thought control filter attached to my brain I've come to a very different conclusion. The 1st resurrection/gathering commonly referred to as the "rapture" took place sometime between 66-70AD. The wrath or great tribulation was the 3 1/2 year military campaign by the Romans in their destruction of the Land(mistranslated as "earth" many times in the book of Revelation) of Israel which started in 66AD.

Edited by Infoabsorption

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TLC    26

So, there's a Preterist espoused to amillennialism on board here, eh?  Probably akin to the same sort of things that tripped up Fanning and his other two 8th corpse buddies.

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Amillennialism is described in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism . Yes that is a pretty accurate description of what I believe. Although "Now-Millenialism" to me is more accurate term than Amillennialism because I believe we are currently in the Millennium which is symbolic for a very long period of time(not a literal 1000years). In that description on Wikipedia it says that "at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension) the Millennium began". I disagree, I believe it began at 70AD.

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This is for clarification. Some Amillennialists don't hold to a belief there was a "rapture" or gathering in the past and believe that the resurrections all happen at the final judgement. I believe there are 2 resurrection/gatherings. The 1st one occurred in the 66-70AD time period. That included Israel and the 1st century Christians prior to 70AD. Look at Revelation 20:4&5" 

" I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection". 

This coincides with the last chapter of Daniel:

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The time of distress of Israel this passage is referring to was the invasion (of Israel) that led to the siege and eventual destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans(the sea Beast of Revelation) 66-70AD.

This also coincides with Matthew 24:

 "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

The 1st three versus of Matthew 24 describes the destruction of the Temple which occurred in 70AD. The disciples obviously connected the destruction of the Temple with the end of the age and Christ's coming.

Look at Luke 21 verses 20 thru 24:

20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

OK, now look at Luke verse 27:

27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

These events occurred in 70AD! The first resurrection occurred at this time. The 2nd resurrection is in our future.  

Edited by Infoabsorption

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TLC    26
18 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

TLC, could you elaborate on Fanning and his Preterist beliefs? is he still in TWI?

Whatever belief "the brain trust of the ministry" (what the three called themselves) had evidently wasn't well known or widely circulated, probably because it resulted in their being shown the door when it surfaced quite early in their first year in residence in Emporia.  So early, in fact, that something of it must have been brewing when he was at HQ as part of his in-resident training.  But it never came up in any conversation we had, so I don't know what it was.      

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TLC    26
18 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

Amillennialism is described in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism . Yes that is a pretty accurate description of what I believe. Although "Now-Millenialism" to me is more accurate term than Amillennialism because I believe we are currently in the Millennium which is symbolic for a very long period of time(not a literal 1000years). In that description on Wikipedia it says that "at Pentecost (or days earlier, at the Ascension) the Millennium began". I disagree, I believe it began at 70AD.

I think 70 AD is a somewhat common belief for most Preterists (at least, any that I've had any sort of discussion with.) 

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8 minutes ago, TLC said:

Whatever belief "the brain trust of the ministry" (what the three called themselves) had evidently wasn't well known or widely circulated, probably because it resulted in their being shown the door when it surfaced quite early in their first year in residence in Emporia.  So early, in fact, that something of it must have been brewing when he was at HQ as part of his in-resident training.  But it never came up in any conversation we had, so I don't know what it was.      

Haha, I bet those 3 at the time didn't realize they were doing themselves a favor.

If anyone else who knew Fanning and the other 2 please reply. I'm interested in knowing what the "odd" belief was that got them kicked out.

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waysider    655
1 hour ago, Infoabsorption said:

Haha, I bet those 3 at the time didn't realize they were doing themselves a favor.

If anyone else who knew Fanning and the other 2 please reply. I'm interested in knowing what the "odd" belief was that got them kicked out.

In a nutshell, the *odd* belief that got them kicked out was that Wierwille's so-called research was flawed. (Thou shalt never challenge the word of The Teacher)

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TLC    26

I disagree.  In a nutshell, it was the inherent result of a clash of enormous egos (from all involved.)

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waysider    655
32 minutes ago, TLC said:

I disagree.  In a nutshell, it was the inherent result of a clash of enormous egos (from all involved.)

Why not both?

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revvel    0

This post is about Christ's precedent.

Christ established a precedent in the Gospels. When this precedent is applied to the revelation given by the apostles (Acts – Revelation), the “interpretation” of their revelation is provided by Christ. For, it is His precedent that is being applied.

Christ’s precedent is found in the answer to this question: Why did Christ quote Old Testament prophets?

Christ quoted Old Testament prophets to reveal the present tense fulfillment of prophecy or the future tense fulfillment of prophecy. And, He quoted the Old Testament prophets in the light of New Testament revelation. Thus, He revealed the context of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

Examples:

CHRIST’S PRECEDENT: PRESENT TENSE FULFILLMENT: Luke 4

If you were with The Way, you heard this:

Christ quoted Isaiah (61:1, 2a) in Luke 4. And after doing so, “he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears” (Luke 4:21).

Christ quoted Isaiah to reveal the present tense fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy: “This day….”

CHRIST’S PRECEDENT: FUTURE TENSE FULFILLMENT: Matt. 24

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’” (Matt. 24:3)

These questions pertain to future tense fulfillment. And in Christ’s response, He quoted an Old Testament prophet:

“[T]his gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.” (Matt. 24:14-16)

Christ quoted Daniel (9:27) and, in doing so, He revealed the future fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy in the light of New Testament revelation.

This precedent established by Christ is His standard—as to why an Old Testament prophet is quoted. Thus, when an apostle quotes an Old Testament prophet, it is either to reveal the present tense or future tense fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, in the context of New Testament revelation. 

When applying Christ’s precedent to Peter, Paul, and John, the following is revealed to be sound doctrine: the future tense fulfillment of prophecy—the Rapture—is accompanied by dramatic heavenly and earthly signs, and will come to pass prior to the wrath.

Prior to posting the prophets quoted by Peter, Paul, and John, I thought it would benefit this thread to establish common ground by referring to Paul quoting the Old Testament in Romans 1.

That is my next post.

revvel

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revvel    0

Paul: Romans 1

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” (Rom. 1:16, 17)

Paul quoted an Old Testament prophet, Habakkuk (2:4), “as it is written,” “The just shall live by faith.”  

Why did Paul quote Habakkuk? By the authority of Jesus Christ we know why: it is either the present tense or future tense fulfillment of prophecy, placed in the context of New Testament revelation.

Paul quoted Habakkuk in the context of “salvation to every one that believeth.” This applies to the present tense. Thus, Paul quoted Habakkuk to show the present tense fulfillment of Habakkuk’s prophecy, which applies to our present salvation; Paul expounded upon “The just shall live by faith” when he presented the message of faith (Rom. 10:8-10).

In subsequent posts, focusing on the future tense, I will quote Peter, Paul, and John and the Old Testament prophets they quoted—and apply Christ’s precedent to each.

I will start with Paul.

revvel

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TLC    26
7 hours ago, revvel said:

Christ quoted Old Testament prophets to reveal the present tense fulfillment of prophecy or the future tense fulfillment of prophecy. And, He quoted the Old Testament prophets in the light of New Testament revelation. Thus, He revealed the context of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

I question what you think or intend to communicate with your use of "in the light of New Testament revelation."  Perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining that for me.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, revvel said:

 

 

"CHRIST’S PRECEDENT: FUTURE TENSE FULFILLMENT: Matt. 24

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’” (Matt. 24:3)

These questions pertain to future tense fulfillment. And in Christ’s response, He quoted an Old Testament prophet:

“[T]his gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.” (Matt. 24:14-16)

Christ quoted Daniel (9:27) and, in doing so, He revealed the future fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy in the light of New Testament revelation.

 

 

revvel,

I agree that Christ was revealing future fulfillment when he made these statements. But where I disagree with most Christians is that the events that Christ was talking about in Matt. 24 occurred approximately 40 years into the future (at the time He made these statements) but not thousands of years into the future which is the popular viewpoint of most Christians in our day and time.

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revvel    0
11 hours ago, TLC said:
18 hours ago, revvel said:

Christ quoted Old Testament prophets to reveal the present tense fulfillment of prophecy or the future tense fulfillment of prophecy. And, He quoted the Old Testament prophets in the light of New Testament revelation. Thus, He revealed the context of the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

I question what you think or intend to communicate with your use of "in the light of New Testament revelation."  Perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining that for me

Hi TLC.

To answer your question, I will quote Paul.

Paul: FUTURE TENSE FULFILLMENT: 1 Cor. 15:51-55

In Corinthians 15, when Paul quoted the Old Testament prophets Isaiah and Hosea, he did so in the light of New Testament revelation.

What is the New Testament light (revelation) you ask? Good question.

Paul began his prophecy by saying this: “Behold, I shew you a mystery.”

That’s your answer: “a mystery” which is composed of present and future tense prophetic fulfillment (present and future salvation).

The “mystery” is New Testament light. Christ gave Paul revelation about the mystery. Paul revealed it while simultaneously quoting Old Testament prophets in the same context to reveal the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

Here is a mystery and here are the Old Testament prophets, together:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1 Cor 15:51-55)

Paul revealed a mystery, and part of that mystery was already hidden in the Old Testament. Paul revealed the mystery hidden in the Old Testament when he quoted two Old Testament prophets: Isaiah (25:8) and Hosea (13:14). In essence, Paul revealed the mystery hidden in the Old Testament, which pertained to the future fulfillment of prophecy for Christ’s kingdom/church.

Like Paul, Peter and John also quoted Old Testament prophets, revealing the mystery hidden in the Old Testament.

Peter’s quote will be next post.

revvel

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revvel    0

Hi Infoabsorption,

I can appreciate where you are coming from. I ask that you follow the prophets and apostles I will quote here. Eventually, this will come full circle back to Matt. 24.

revvel

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If anyone is interested there is an article that is a response to another article that explains the 4 views of the Book of Revelation: Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, and Futurist. The response article was written by a preterist. In the article he explains the major objections to preterism and gives very well written rebuttals to the objections. The writer also provides evidence from recorded history that the "Abomination of Desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24:15 & Daniel 9:27 occurred during the Roman attack on Jerusalem in 70CE. Very interesting stuff. This will give you insight into why I changed my beliefs so drastically regarding eschatology. Here is the article: https://probe.org/a-preterist-responds-to-four-views-of-revelation/#text1

 

 

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revvel    0

Thanks Infoabsorption for the link. FYI: In the coming posts I will be in the Book of Revelation.

revvel

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revvel    0

Peter: Acts 2: Applying Christ's Precedent 

On Pentecost, Peter quoted Joel.

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:12, 14-21)

On Pentecost, Peter quoted Joel. Why?

By the authority of Jesus Christ we know why: it is either the present tense or future tense fulfillment of prophecy. Or, in this case, it is both.

First: Present Tense

The crowd asked Peter, “What meaneth this?” And Peter quoted Joel.

Peter quoted Joel for the same reason Paul quoted Habakkuk: it is the present tense fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

Peter quoted Joel because it was the present tense fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28, 29). The Spirit was poured out, and continues to be poured out on those who believe the message of faith.

Second: Future Tense

Peter didn’t end his quote with Joel 2:29. He continued until Joel 2:32a, prophesying about the day of the Lord: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Acts 2:20, 21).

Peter prophesied about the day of the Lord for the same reason Paul quoted Isaiah (25:8) and Hosea (13:14): to reveal the future tense fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

By quoting Joel 2:28-32a, Peter revealed the present tense and future tense fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, and thus, he connected our present tense salvation with our future tense salvation. Peter is referring to all those who call on the name of Lord—which, in the context of Peter’s prophecy, are those filled with the Spirit. That’s us; Christ’s church.

And according to the prophecy, our future tense salvation is accompanied by heavenly signs: the sun turning black and the moon turning blood red.

In essence, on Pentecost, Peter revealed the mystery—which pertains to the church—hidden in Joel.

And the rest of Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:32b & following) applies to Israel’s future salvation.

Next: John’s quote of the Old Testament as it pertains to our future salvation.

revvel

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