Alternative View of the Beasts of Revelation

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I decided to post something that to many of you will seem rather crazy and/or unbelievable but since we were involved in TWI I would assume most of us are used to crazy. I know some on this board are aware of my preterism but some may not be. To those of you who aren't aware, Preterism is the belief that most or all of the prophetic eschatological events recorded in the Bible have already occurred. Some of my dispensational futurist friends keep asking me for historical "proof" that the things written in Revelation are symbols of events that occurred during the Roman attack on Judea & Jerusalem in particular from 66-70 AD. I don't believe that someone can provide proof (in the scientific sense) of the meaning of a symbol but I do believe that one can provide evidence.

I have copied and pasted below a commentary of the "3 Beasts of Revelation" by a fellow preterist of mine. I did not write this commentary. After reading his commentary I had a "by George I think he's got it!" moment. I thought I had most of Revelation already put together in my mind until I read this commentary. I pasted his commentary unedited. That being said, I don't agree with every little detail he proposes. For instance he sees the little horn in Daniel 7 as Nero, I believe it is the Roman General Titus. Also he sees the millennium as past, I believe that the 1000 years is in progress. But I do think he has the 3 Beasts pretty well nailed down from recorded history. Btw, this is a little different than the typical Preterist view. So here it is, starting below the line:

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"Just when you thought the subject of the beast was cooked to a crisp - here you are with yet another post on that constantly-visited theme.  But for those having the time and the patience to review the following series of comments, perhaps you will encounter some points you may not have considered before.  Hopefully, breaking up these comments into several portions will make them more easily digestible.  As an advance notice, some of this material will run counter to the views most often expressed by the more well-known advocates of preterism.  But as a general rule, preterists don't mind chewing on something that might taste a little different, so here goes....

As the title emphasizes, I see Revelation dividing these creatures into three distinct entities, each with its own identifying features and point of origin.  And there are definitely three of them - and the Red Dragon who first appears in heaven in Rev. 12:3 cannot be any one of these three.  In a nutshell, here below is how each of the three beasts could be described:

#1)  The "Sea Beast" of Rev. 13:1  -  represents the Roman empire rising out of the sea of Gentile nations, just as the sea and the nations are a reflection of each other is Isaiah 60:5.  This is simply a re-introduction of the 4th beast from the sea in Daniel 7, which also had these same 10 crowned horns.  One of these, the little horn, was Nero of 666 notoriety, waging war against the saints for 3 1/2 "times" (Dan.7:21), or 42 months (Rev. 13:5,7), following the AD 64 fire at Rome.  But he is NOT The Antichrist - not even one of the antichrists that I John 2:18 speaks of, for he never "went out from among" those to whom John was writing.

 The 10 crowned horns on this Sea Beast represent the succession of Caesars from Julius Caesar through Vespasian - the emperor under whose reign the "power of Daniel's people would be shattered", as in Daniel 12:7.  (This is the same "power" of John 1:12 - the power to be called the true Sons of God - which national Israel lost, as shown in Isaiah 65:15 and Mark 12:9.  It has less to do with Israel losing her military power or her national status in the Roman world than it has to do with her power to stand before God as His people.)  Any emperor's reign after the 10th (Vespasian) would have been irrelevant after any prophecy related to the dissolution of Jerusalem's temple was fulfilled. 

This Sea Beast also shares the same identity with the 4th iron kingdom of Roman domination in Daniel 2's prophetic image.  At the point in Daniel's image where the iron legs turn into iron mixed with clay in the feet and toes, it is a picture of the Roman Sea Beast "mingling with the seed of men " in Israel.  With the empire's official sanction of Judaism as a "religio licita", it enjoyed a certain level of autonomy - until the rebellion.  But until the season when that rebellion broke out, the Land Beast worked in support and cooperation with the Sea Beast.

Next, details describing that Land Beast.

#2)  The "Land Beast" of Rev. 13:11 - represents the combination of Israel's religious and political leadership, rising out of the earth (GE - the land of Israel in particular - not the world at large).  Another title for this Land Beast is the "False Prophet", since they believed their function was to identify and prepare the way for Israel's prophesied Messiah-King.  This, they presumed, would restore them as a world power similar to the glory of King David and Solomon's days.  This explains the Pharisees sending a delegation of Levites and priests to John to inquire if he was this very fulfillment of the Messiah foretold by Daniel 9's 70-week prophecy.  The time was right by their computations, and they were expecting His imminent arrival on the scene. 

This Land Beast had only two small horns, representing the two major religious sects prevalent at that time - the Pharisees and Sadducees.  And it spoke deceptively, like the dragon.  We have instances of Christ directly calling these religious leaders in His day liars, as their father, the devil, was a liar.  Bringing out false witnesses at Christ's trial was just one more example of the same deceptive practices. 

To preserve the level of financial and political power they had under Roman supervision, the Land Beast labored to enforce Judean submission to the Roman Sea Beast.  They had a vested interest in placating Roman authority, since that insured the continued flow of riches into their own coffers.  The fire called down from heaven by this beast is a picture of their officiating over the fire of God on the temple's altar of sacrifices.  And they did their utmost to ensure that Jerusalem and Judea kept the Peace with Rome so that "their place and their nation" would be preserved, as Caiphas wished.  "We have no king but Caesar", is a clear indication that their allegiance lay with the "Sea Beast". 

One outward visible symbol of this submission to Rome, imposed on all Jews, was the use of the silver Tyrian shekel required for paying the annual temple tax and for all purchased temple offerings.  This silver coin was stamped with the image of the demi-god Herakles with the Roman eagle on the reverse side, and the inscribed initials "KP", standing for "Kratos Romaion" - "power of the Romans".  Even though the pagan image on it was an abomination in God's temple, for the sake of the purity of this coin's silver content, it was the only accepted currency the priesthood would allow for temple transactions.  Hence, the lucrative, corrupt practices of the money-changers profiting from this literal part of the mark of the beast. 

We have examples in the gospels of the Land Beast and the Sea Beast working in collaboration.  At Christ's trial, Pontius Pilate curried favor with Herod by passing Christ over to him for examination, since Christ belonged to Herod's jurisdiction of Galilee.  They became friends that day, as Luke 23:12 says.  In Acts 24:27, the Roman governor Felix, "willing to show the Jews a pleasure", leaves Paul bound as Felix's term of office expires.  His replacement, governor Festus is also "willing to do the Jews a pleasure" by suggesting that Paul go on trial at Jerusalem.

Next, details of the "Scarlet Beast" to follow.

 

#3)  -  The "Scarlet Beast" of Rev. 17:3 - represents the independent kingdom-nation of Israel.  The wilderness background setting where it originally appears is indicative of Israel - not Rome.  Rome is not known for possessing a wilderness environment, but it arises frequently in the gospel accounts as an element of the Judean landscape, as well as having a common association of the wilderness wanderings with the nation of Israel after the Exodus (Deut. 32:9-10).

This Scarlet Beast had gone through various phases of existence throughout history.  As Revelation 17:8 described it, at one time it "WAS" in existence, then it "IS NOT" in existence at the time John was writing Revelation, and then it was "ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS" (which was equivalent to a state of death, according to Romans 10:7).  The time when the Scarlet Beast "WAS" in existence matches with the time when Israel under the Maccabean family became an independent nation for about 80 years after 142 BC.  Then, this independent kingdom was lost when it was incorporated into the Roman Republic by Pompey in 63 BC.  Herod the Idumean was especially instrumental in forcing subjugation to Rome's oversight and taxation, once he had been given sanction by the Roman Senate for his position as client-king of Judea.  This was the time when the Scarlet Beast "IS NOT" in existence.  Finally, in AD 66, the Zealot uprising cast off the Roman yoke in rebellion (the apostasia), and Israel asserted itself once more as an independent kingdom, minting its own currency and refusing to offer the daily sacrifice for the empire and the emperor.  This was the time when the Scarlet Beast "IS" again in existence.  It was "ABOUT TO COME UP" in John's day, because John was writing in AD 59/60, and the Zealot rebellion of AD 66 was on the near horizon when the Scarlet Beast would again rise to power.

This Scarlet Beast carried the adulterous woman, Mystery Babylon/Jerusalem (the faithful city who became a harlot - Isaiah 1:21), responsible throughout her history for the death of the prophets (Rev. 18:24 compared with Matt. 23:37, Luke 11:49-51).  The cup she holds aloft is identical to the cup of God's fury that Jerusalem was to drink in Jer. 51:17.  Likewise, the sign in her forehead is a warped imitation of the inscription on the golden plate on the high priest's forehead - "Holiness of the Lord".

The Scarlet Beast itself had 7 heads/mountains upon which the great city Jerusalem sat (Mt. of Olives, Mt. Zion, Mt. Scopus, Mt. of Offense, Hill of Evil Counsel, Northwestern Hill, Northeastern Hill).  These 7 heads also represented 7 kings of the ruling House of Annas, the high priest.  There is precedent for highlighting this particular family of high priests who monopolized the position almost continuously for half of the first century.  The parable of Lazarus and the rich man with five brothers and his father's "house" is nothing less than a story that condemns this family of high priests for its corruption.  High priests are equal to the "kings of the earth"- (GE - land of Israel).  Study Matt. 17:24-27 to catch how Christ equates one with the other. 

The 10 horns on this Scarlet Beast, all rising to brief power simultaneously, represented the 10 generals that were chosen in late AD 66 in Jerusalem to organize and prepare Judea and Jerusalem for the inevitable war with Rome.  This list of 10 selected generals is given to us in Josephus' Wars 2:20,4.  They were of one mind to begin with - united in their hatred of a Jerusalem that had been dominated by Rome's authority.  Rome had been selecting the high priesthood and dictating the tenure of each high priest.  What was worse, the high priest's holy garments (which were supposed to be stored in the temple itself) had passed into Roman hands, and they were kept in the stone Antonia fortress to be handed to the Jews on the feast days at Rome's discretion. 

The power of these 10 horns working in conjunction with the Scarlet Beast lasted only an "HOUR"; the length of time that it took for Jerusalem's / Babylon's judgment to make her desolate and burn her utterly with fire by the end of the AD 70 siege.  This was the Lake of Fire that the Scarlet Beast and the Land Beast were given to - the Second Death of Jerusalem -  the first death of Jerusalem being the one that had occurred with the Babylonian invasion long before.

And behind all of these beasts, the dragon/serpent/Satan/devil who had been released from his millennium chain in AD 33 after Christ's ascension was exerting every effort to deceive these beasts by using his unclean spirits, the fallen angels (Rev. 16:13-14) to maneuver the members of all three of the beasts' kingdoms into a no-holds-barred elimination round.

Next, a listing of some distinct differences between the Sea Beast and the Scarlet Beast to follow.

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Despite the fact that the Scarlet Beast of Rev. 17:3 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns, just as the Sea Beast does, THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM ONE AND THE SAME.  They are counterparts.  Here are a few points that illustrate their differences:

#1)  Their origins are different - one came from the sea, the other appears in the wilderness.

#2)  The Sea Beast is presented as an unchallenged foe who wages war against the saints and overcomes them (Rev. 13:7) - whereas the 10 horns on the Scarlet Beast wage war against the Lamb, but are overcome by Him (Rev. 17:14).

#3)  The 10 horns on the Sea Beast all have crowns - the Scarlet Beast's 10 horns have none.  And even when these do gain power as if they were kings, just after John's writing, it is only for ONE HOUR simultaneously - not successively as the 10 emperor horns on the Sea Beast.  Just how long is this "hour"?  As long as the "hour" that it took to crush Jerusalem in AD 70 (Rev. 18:10, 17, 19).  Perhaps as long as the length of the 10 toes on Daniel 2's prophetic image.  In other words, about 3 1/2 years, from late AD 66 - 70.

#4)  The Sea Beast has no harlot (Jerusalem) riding in a dominant position on its back - the Scarlet Beast does.  This harlot REIGNS OVER the kings of the earth (including the 7 kings) which are part of the beast upon which she rides.  If this woman represents Jerusalem, the faithless harlot, she did most definitely reign over the kings/high priests of the earth (GE - land of Israel).  This is NOT "kings of the whole habitable world" (as in Rev. 16:14).  It's the "kings of the earth (GE - land of Israel - as in the very same Rev. 16:14 verse).  This verse separates the kings of the earth and the kings of the whole habitable world into 2 different categories.  The first were Judean kings - the other were Gentile kings.  Christ equates these Judean "kings of the earth" with the high priests who received the annual half-shekel for the temple tax from the people - not from their own sons (Matt 17:25).

#5)  One of the 7 heads / mountains of this Scarlet Beast received a deadly would, and was then healed of this wound.  My take on the 7 heads of this Sea Beast is that they represent the 7 mountains of the city of Rome.  One of these mountains of Rome received this "deadly wound" by the disastrous fire at Rome in AD 64.  It's a wound to one of the heads (mountains), NOT a wound to one of the horns (emperors) - which, at that time of John's writing, would have been the emperor Nero.  Rome's deadly wound by the fire was healed when Nero launched a massive expensive rebuilding program for the capitol city, including his fabulous "Golden House" with its Colossus of Nero image over 100 ft. tall.  In contrast to this healing of the Sea Beast's one head/mountain - the Scarlet Beast's 7 heads as kings have all either fallen, or will go into destruction (perdition), and its 7 heads as mountains have all been leveled with the ground and "are not found" (Rev. 16:20).

#6)  There is a difference in the level of blasphemy performed by the Sea Beast and the Scarlet Beast as well.  Rev. 13:1's account of the Sea Beast only has "the name (singular) of blasphemy" on its heads.  On the other hand, the Scarlet Beast is "full of names (plural) of blasphemy" (Rev. 17:3).  Israel's guilt exceeded Rome's guilt because Israel sinned against her own Messiah who walked her streets.

Next, how best to define the list of 7-8 kings on the Scarlet Beast.

The following comments address the bewildering, enigmatic language that describes the group of 7 kings and an eighth that are part of the Scarlet Beast's resume.  This list of 7 kings and an eighth has been connected with the Roman emperors by many in the Preterist camp.  At one time I also held the view that the Emperor Nero was the sixth king on this list, as well as the 6th horn on the Sea Beast.  However, that idea really got awkward when it came to giving an ID to the eighth king on the Scarlet Beast, since there were a total of 10 emperors, not just 8.

And it never really sounded plausible to have this harlot, Mystery Babylon (which I was absolutely sure was Jerusalem, the great city who had killed the prophets, after comparing Rev. 18:4 with Luke 11:49-51 and Matt. 23:37) riding in a dominant position on top of the Scarlet Beast, if its 10 horns were Roman emperors, and its 7 heads were Roman hills.  Something didn't sit quite right with that picture.  It didn't compute.  Jerusalem did not sit on 7 Roman hills, and she did not dominate the Roman emperors.  But it is true that the great city Jerusalem had its own set of 7 heads/mountains to sit upon (Mt. Scopus, Mt. Zion, Mt. of Olives, etc.).

Next, I thought that perhaps these 7 kings were the Herodian kings, since there actually were 7 of them ending with Agrippa II.  As promising as that appeared at first glance, it wasn't a match either, since Agrippa II did not "continue for a short space" as the 7th king on this beast would do.  The curious language describing these kings did not match the Herodian kings' history.  And there was no 8th king of that Herodian line to follow Agrippa II.  But if this Scarlet Beasts' Judean wilderness background setting (Deut. 32:10) was any indication, with the great city Jerusalem on its back, it stood to reason that the entire Scarlet Beast and its characteristics were totally Judean in nature. 

Next, a list of scripture proofs for defining high priests as kings, and how to apply that to the list of 7-8 kings in Rev. 17:10-11.

 

 

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The following is my best estimation of just how the ruling House of Annas serving as high priests could be considered the fulfillment of this 7-kings list with the 8th individual who succeeds them. They are called "kings" in a sense we don't usually think of with our western mindset. When Paul was on trial before Ananias ben Nebedeus in Acts 23:5, he referred to the high priest as "the ruler of thy people", just as God's high priest was termed in Exodus 22:28. 

The high priest is termed the "Prince of princes" over the holy people in the context of Daniel 8:24, 25.  Actually, during that Maccabean period, the offices of high priest and king merged, and were held by a single individual until  Herodian times.  Also, there are multiple references in the OT where the high priest is called the "Prince" in Israel.  Ezekiel chapters 44, 45, and 46 repeatedly  use this term for the one who would offer the proscribed sacrifices in Zerubbabel's post-exilic temple.

The high priest's vestments included a "crown" with "Holiness to the LORD" engraved on it (Ex. 39:30).

Hannah's praise exalting God in I Samuel 2:10 (I Kings 2:10 LXX) extols God because He "gives strength to our KINGS".  This was before the first monarch of Israel, Saul, had even been born.  Therefore, she was praising God for giving strength to the high priests of Israel.

The high priest under Solomon was called a "prince" in I Kings 4:1.  As does Zechariah 6:11-14.

Israel was called by God a "kingdom of priests" - with the high priest at its head invested with God's authority for the term of his life.

"Prince" and "King" are interchangeable terms for the high priest in Ezekiel 43:7 LXX. 

And Christ labels the high priests as "kings of the earth" in Matt. 17:25. 

As already noted, I believe Luke 16's parable of Lazarus and the rich man is in reference to the House of Annas and its corrupt activities.  It was given as a pointed finger of condemnation against this avaricious family of 7 men who held a monopoly over the high priesthood for decades.  Annas and Caiaphas had made it their personal agenda to entrap Christ in His words and bring Him to death. Every one of these 7 men were present in Acts 4:6 when Peter and John were defending themselves before all the "kindred of the high priest" after Pentecost.

By name, they were the following:  #1) Annas ben Seth, the patriarch, and "Father" of the Lazarus parable, #2) Joseph Caiaphas, his son-in-law, who played the role of the "rich man" in the Lazarus parable, #3) Eleazar ben Ananus, the first of the 5 brothers, #4) Jonathan ben Ananus, #5) Theophilus ben Ananus, #6) Matthias ben Ananus, and #7) Ananas ben Ananas.  The 8th member of this House of Annas to serve as high priest was a grandson, Matthias ben Theophilus.

If one pulls up a list of the high priests of the Herodian era, with their dates of appointment and tenure, and puts this list side by side with Rev. 17's list of 7 kings, the comparison of the House of Annas with this list of 7 kings aligns perfectly with the rather obscure, convoluted language, as follows:

Revelation 17:10  -  "and there are 7 kings: five are fallen" (the first 5 high priests of the House of Annas would have died as of John's writing) "and ONE IS" (still living - which would probably be Matthias ben Ananus, the youngest son) "and the other IS NOT YET COME; and WHEN HE COMETH," (Ananus ben Ananus was appointed as high priest in AD 62, which means that Revelation had to have been written BEFORE AD 62) "he must continue A SHORT SPACE" (because Ananus had James the Just, Christ's half-brother executed and overstepped his office's authority in doing so.  He was deposed for this, after serving a brief 3 months.)  "and the beast that WAS" (the Scarlet Beast who was the independent kingdom-nation of Israel that had first been launched by the Maccabeus family around 142 BC) "and IS NOT", (because Israel as an independent kingdom ceased to exist in 63 BC when Pompey incorporated it into the Roman Republic) "even he is AN EIGHTH" (because the independent kingdom of Israel resurfaced in AD 66, led by the 8th member of the house of Annas as its high priest, a grandson named Matthias ben Theophilus) " and is OF THE SEVEN"  (Matthias was in the genetic line of the House of Annas) "and goes into destruction" (because Matthias was also murdered by the Zealots in AD 66 during their temple siege). 

Perhaps it's just me, but this language seems to fit this family of high priests like a glove. 

Next, some further details about the 10 horns on the Scarlet Beast.

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As brought out previously, these 10 horns / 10 generals on the Scarlet Beast are by no means the same as the 10 crowned horns on the Sea Beast of Rev. 18.  None of these 10 horns on the Scarlet Beast have a crown or kingdom yet as of John's writing.  They gain power simultaneously, and even that is for only ONE HOUR with the Scarlet Beast.  And it is only "AS IF" they were kings, not that they ever are one, really.

I have found these same horns described elsewhere in Scripture, just based on their activity and their historical setting.  The context of Zechariah 12:5-6 duplicates the actions of the 10 horns in Rev. 17:16.  Zechariah predicts the AD 70 siege conditions of Jerusalem, and the governors/captains of Judah who would manipulate their fellow countrymen, "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" to their own advantage.  They would act like a "torch of fire" in a bound-up sheaf (like the tares bound in bundles to be burned), and they would "devour" all the people of Jerusalem - just exactly as the 10 quasi-"kings"  are predicted to do in Rev. 17, when they "hate the whore" (Jerusalem), and make her desolate, and "burn and devour her".  It was civil war let loose in Jerusalem, and her temple rulers, and Messiah-wannabes made the most of their last, desperate, one hour of opportunity before it all went up in flames.

This brief "HOUR" that the 10 horns / 10 generals governed along with the Scarlet Beast (the independent kingdom of Israel) was beset by continual conflict with various contenders for the prophesied Messiah role, who they thought was to rule the world from a physical temple in Jerusalem.  "Strong delusion", indeed.

One of these Messiah-wannabes was the first to claw his way to the top of the heap of contenders - the one termed "the Man of Lawlessness" in II Thessalonians 2.  The individual who fulfilled all the particular descriptions in Paul's Thessalonians account regarding the Man of Lawlessness was a Zealot named Menahem, who actually did present himself in the temple as King of the Jews, dressed in Herod's royal regalia stolen from Masada in AD 66.  His name means "Comforter", (the name for both Christ and the Holy Spirit - John 14:16),  a rather blasphemous moniker, considering his war-mongering actions.  If interested, one can read the account of his activities in Josephus' Wars, Book 2, ch. 17. 8-9.  He and his followers were murdered in turn almost immediately by his rival, Eleazar and his troops.  He was a flash in the pan, as it were, destroyed along with the brightness of his own sudden coming into prominence. (NOT Christ's coming, by the way.)

This Menahem was the son or grandson of Judas the Galilean from Acts 5:37. Judas was killed for instigating a rebellion against Rome's new tax in Quirinius' day.  His two sons who followed him in this revolt, James and Simon, were crucified for their participation.  So Menahem was merely carrying on the family tradition of Zealotry - a "son of destruction, or perdition" -  as the Man of Lawlessness is termed in II Thess 2:3.  Another relative of Menahem's who participated heavily in the rebellion was Eleazar ben Jairus, who later led the ill-fated last stand at Masada's stronghold.

A few other names that figure among the contenders for the Messiah role are familiar to those who have some grounding in first century historical events.  Simon son of Gioras would have been one.  Eleazar, son of Simon another; also Eleazar ben Ananias, John of Gischala, perhaps the Egyptian in the wilderness mentioned in Acts 21:38 - there were apparently many that were vying for the coveted Messiah-King role.  The names mentioned here are only those who emerged as the front-runners after lesser-known rivals were eliminated.   I John 2:18 testified that there were many antichrists in that day as he was writing, that "went out FROM US" (out from among those he was writing to in those days).

If this collection of observations above seem too small-scaled, compared to the usual grandiose, global-wide interpretations we are used to hearing, perhaps it is because we are too myopic.  We need to adjust our interpretations to fit the audience that these things were actually written to - namely, the beleaguered, persecuted saints of John's day, and the generation of Israel that was going to experience God's vengeance poured out upon them in that first century. 

Anything that extends the fulfillment of these events into our current day is to exaggerate them out of all proportion to their intended purpose.  Any such exaggerated interpretation stretches the limbs of the body of Daniel's prophetic image into a gross distortion of that human figure.  The stone cut without hands has already struck the iron and clay feet in AD 70 and shattered the power that Satan and his demons once held over all this image's kingdoms.  We are privileged to live in the age when this rock is continuing to grow and fill the world.  If we can't perceive the growth of this kingdom with our own eyes, it is because we are not able to see what God sees.  Leaven grows quietly and unobtrusively - but inexorably.   The mustard seed will become the largest of all herbs.  And contrary to all expectations.............rocks can grow.

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This topic was moved from "Questioning Faith" to the main doctrinal section.

While anyone is free to comment on any topic (as long as those comments are on topic), the "Questioning Faith" subforum is explicitly intended to house conversations that call religion and faith into question. We may change the name of it to make that a little more clear in the future.

Nonetheless, this topic does not seem to be questioning faith so much as it's exploring faith. Doctrinal's main section is the more appropriate setting.