Based on the information we have seen so far, it wasn't only VPW that lied.
VPW said that God promised him He would teach him "the word" like it hadn't been known for 2,000 years. We now know, thanks to Mike, VPW's staunchest advocate , that the information had, in fact, been known for quite some time. What Wierwille did, according to Mike, was take existing material and "assemble" it in a way it hadn't been assembled before. Plagiarism issues aside for the moment, what this means is that God must have lied when He made the promise to VPW. He promised Wierwille exclusive information but, instead, pulled a fast one on VPW by giving him previously known material to assemble. Of course, I don't actually believe this. Still, it suggests God was lying when He made the promise.
edit: "God is not a man, that He should lie..." (Numbers 23:19)
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
The question I had with his statement (which may have been discussed in a previous thread) is “What was Jesus Christ doing for his body the church, since the first century”? Sitting idly by waiting for VeePee to show up? What delusional arrogance. What a crock of caca.
The question I had with his statement (which may have been discussed in a previous thread) is “What was Jesus Christ doing for his body the church, since the first century”? Sitting idly by waiting for VeePee to show up? What delusional arrogance. What a crock of caca.
Appareantly he was playing hooky, vpw always claimed Christ was absent.
Based on the information we have seen so far, it wasn't only VPW that lied.
VPW said that God promised him He would teach him "the word" like it hadn't been known for 2,000 years. We now know, thanks to Mike, VPW's staunchest advocate , that the information had, in fact, been known for quite some time. What Wierwille did, according to Mike, was take existing material and "assemble" it in a way it hadn't been assembled before. Plagiarism issues aside for the moment, what this means is that God must have lied when He made the promise to VPW. He promised Wierwille exclusive information but, instead, pulled a fast one on VPW by giving him previously known material to assemble. Of course, I don't actually believe this. Still, it suggests God was lying when He made the promise.
edit: "God is not a man, that He should lie..." (Numbers 23:19)
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
You're making an assumption that VPW knew anything of church history. If there were any such classes in the seminary he went to, he must have snoozed through them.
7 hours ago, WordWolf said:
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned.
Very good point, although many early Christians weren't of Jewish background but converted from other religions/idols.
A point that still stands today; there are many countries where Christians are persecuted (especially in Arab countries). Yet still people CHOOSE to convert, knowing that the penalties for doing so are huge. Such people know that there is something better, bigger, more powerful. They don't learn that from the TWI example of meanness and shouting. They learn from something they SEE (experience and power) in other Christians, as well as something they HEAR from them.
Since someone claimed to have some sort of reply for this thread, I'm bumping it up to make it easier to find. By all means, if someone has anything of substance to add to this thread, let them post it and we can discuss it. If it's legit, it will stand scrutiny. If it's not legit, no point in basing one's personal philosophy on it.
They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
Seems I find myself in disagreement with the essence of that. "They" (which from the context of your post, appears to be aimed at the church that was based in Jerusalem), and the Word of God that they knew (be it the Torah/Old Testament, the SPOKEN word, or The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER), didn't get to Saul or get him to do anything - aside from hauling them off to prison and making sure they were sentenced to death.
And, as for the Greeks, I don't see that it was anything that they believed as a result of something they saw (or experienced) that turned the world upside down. Instead, I think it was their response to the words that Paul spoke - which they then believed to be the Word of God - which turned the world upside down. For 1500 years, the most incredible signs, miracles and wonders that can possibly be imagined continually failed to keep Israel on track. Sure, maybe they worked temporarily to steer them in the right direction. But, sooner or later, the effect wore off, and Israel was back in the crapper. And when all things prophesied beforehand began to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ, where was Israel? Out to lunch. Couldn't recognize the signs of the times, even when it hit them right between the eyes. Risen from the dead, with MANY infallible proofs, with MANY witnesses, and still - those that KNEW the law would not believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah that had been promised (by the Word of God) to their fathers.
What then... do you suppose that Israel was (and were) simply the wrong choice? So now God simply choses a different people or nation(s) to believe His Word, His promises, because of what THEY (this newly selected group) see with their eyes, or experience with their senses?
Well, that's certainly not how I see it going down. Granted, Saul was evidently one of those hard headed Israelites that couldn't believe squat unless... something in the senses realm knocked him on his arse. Which, as you know, happened. Because... God was ready to go a completely different direction. Saul's response? Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? Just say whatever it is... I will do it. So, real or true believing is the response God wants to simply hearing His Word - tout seul. Which, incidentally, shows up in the next chapter of Acts (i.e., with the household of Cornelius. Which Peter evidently forgets until many years later, when he finally recalls it in order to come to Paul's defense in Acts 15.)
Sure, it's no secret that the Corinthians were carnally minded. And what better way was there to condition and cement the mind into an extremely senses oriented view of everything in life aside from sex and the endorphins and dopamine it releases in the brain? So, let's not forget to take that into account when reading 1&2 Corinthians. More importantly, consider what's first written to the church in Thessalonica, in 1Thes.2:13.
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Okay, enough on this already. Not sure what else I could say on it that explains this particular perspective on it any better. But it's a prominent distinction between Paul's gospel, and the gospel of the Kingdom.
On 1/2/2018 at 7:24 PM, WordWolf said:
Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry.
The church centered at Jerusalem? I'd agree, at least, for a while. I'm just not sure how deep into Acts that really extends. Nor am I sure (or convinced of) how much "staying power" that kind of ministry has, or might ever (really) have. However, that said, I would agree with this:
On 1/2/2018 at 7:24 PM, WordWolf said:
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
I just don't think anybody has ever known it as it was originally given to the apostle Paul.
Parts of it? ...perhaps. Just not as well, or in its entirety. But, maybe that's by design. As neither has anyone since ever needed to. What's written has been written. And perhaps the beauty of all the individual members of the body working together, rather mysteriously, to carry out the ministry of reconciliation exemplifies the goodness and manifold wisdom of God (and in ways that cannot be attributed to anyone in particular, either individually or as a particular sect, aside from Christ alone - being the head of the body. And in ways that will eventually reward genuine believing - which is not predicated by, or reliant on, trusting whatever is known by the senses, or through the wisdom of men.)
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
"Seems I find myself in disagreement with the essence of that. "They" (which from the context of your post, appears to be aimed at the church that was based in Jerusalem), and the Word of God that they knew (be it the Torah/Old Testament, the SPOKEN word, or The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER), didn't get to Saul or get him to do anything - aside from hauling them off to prison and making sure they were sentenced to death."
I'm drawing a contrast between the verbiage-heavy, study-based system vpw propagated, and the simpler, action-based system in Acts. Saul of Tarsus consented to the deaths of Christians and their imprisonment for the "crime" of being Christians. He was a somewhat fanatical Jew-which made him actively anti-Christian. Would a speech reach him? No- somebody like that needs to see something. In his case, it wasn't a sales-pitch for a green-card, but being blown off his horse by a flash of light that spoke to him and gave him temporary blindness. THAT got his attention. Until then-and a day or so to think it over- no speech would have gotten through. When I say "they got" it was in the sense of "and FC Barcelona got Lionel Messi that season." ("We got Potter!") Saul of Tarsus joined the team.
"And, as for the Greeks, I don't see that it was anything that they believed as a result of something they saw (or experienced) that turned the world upside down. Instead, I think it was their response to the words that Paul spoke - which they then believed to be the Word of God - which turned the world upside down."
Acts 14: 7-13 (KJV)
7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
Acts 4: 14-16 (KJV)
14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Acts 5:12-16
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Acts 6:8-10
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Acts 8:5-13
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 9:32-35
32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
33 And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy.
34 And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.
35 And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.
Acts 9:36-42
36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
They certainly preached- but with nothing to see, there would not have been as dramatic a conversion rate. People SAW things, people EXPERIENCED things. It's one thing to believe someone can get healed- but if YOU'RE the one healed, it's hard to be convinced it didn't happen. I'm pretty sure the man born blind and the lame at the temple gate Beautiful weren't convinced that it was all just pretty speeches once they got their healing-they knew the difference.
On the other hand, Paul did preach without the miracles, and the results weren't a swelling of converts.
Acts 17:21
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time
in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
A few converts joined, but the majority were just there for some entertainment and new philosophy. The Greeks who saw miracles sat up and paid attention.
Is it possible to see a similarity between vpw's preaching about Greek words and Paul's preaching and miracles? vpw talked a good game, but when it came time to demonstrate power, he didn't. Saul of Tarsis got confused for a Greco-Roman god on the basis of ONE dramatic miracle. No reasonable person would look at the results of both and say there's little or no difference between them.
The POINT OF THIS THREAD is to point out how the 1942 promise failed to match reality and is rather clearly not a promise from God. If you want to get into a different subject, please take it to a different thread.
Odd, how it appears by repeating your entire earlier post you make it look like I was in disagreement with the entirety of it. And then, rather than pick up on the actual point of it, your concern is merely to reinforcing your prescribed solution to what the history of the church was in the first century. Just because the perspective I hold is (evidently) very different than yours doesn't mean that I think TWI any better fits with or fulfills "the 1942 promise." But, seems you were so focused on your own angle on it, that you missed that (and anything else of value.)
vpw talked a good game, but when it came time to demonstrate power, he didn't.
Frankly, I don't recall actually thinking or caring much about whether he did or didn't demonstrate power back then. What I did think and care more about was how God worked in my own life, and whether I demonstrated power. (And I don't think I was alone in that respect.) But, after long last seeing that for the egotism that sort of thinking breeds, as well as taking a much closer and more honest look at when the church of the body of Christ started (it wasn't Acts 2) and how it operates, I hold a very, very different view on the need, value, and significance of this "demonstrating power."
It wasn't because of any 1942 promise that I got excited about understanding the Bible better.
Those amazing miracles recorded in Acts got my attention. I read Acts and it was exciting! Wow, that stuff happened? That stuff is what is available? Where is it? I don't see it in the local churches. They're boring.
So soon after, when I met a WoW, who knew a lot of Bible but more to the point, prayed about things and they happened, wow! that got my attention. A lot of strange and unexplainable things happened when he was around - he prayed, astonishing things happened, everything went well. I wanted to know how to get prayers answered. To be able to work miracles, to help people in that miraculous way.
It was one sees, seeing the power of God in action, seeing and knowing it's real, experiencing God at work, where there are results - that's what gets attention.
Ultimately, this WoW got badly hurt by C G33r, but that (at that time) didn't damage his confidence in God.
So I don't know about 1942 promises. The WoW believed it, I think; it wasn't really a talking point; he believed that God would hear and answer. He believed the word taught, having rejected an idolatrous RC upbringing. It was the simple faith of young and enthusiastic believers that got through to many people, worldwide. It was results, not words or fake promises.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation.
A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened.
There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color.
Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted.
So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it.
There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.
Frankly, I don't recall actually thinking or caring much about whether he did or didn't demonstrate power back then. What I did think and care more about was how God worked in my own life, and whether I demonstrated power. (And I don't think I was alone in that respect.) But, after long last seeing that for the egotism that sort of thinking breeds, as well as taking a much closer and more honest look at when the church of the body of Christ started (it wasn't Acts 2) and how it operates, I hold a very, very different view on the need, value, and significance of this "demonstrating power."
Sounds worth discussing. Since it's not really "About The Way", perhaps you'd like to open a new thread in Doctrinal about that very thing. Yes, I'm trying to keep this thread focused. You've missed the past decade or more of posting, but there's always someone intentionally looking to derail any thread that exposes twi faults or vpw faults. We don't need anyone accidentally derailing it before they start posting in it. :)
Sometimes I really DO forget how long we've been doing this, and how many discussions of substance have passed through here. This was really more a summary of what other posters pointed out long ago, across different threads.
I wonder if he already had Bullinger's books before he spoke to Rosalind Rinker. He probably also had Ruben Archer Torrey's materials, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Smith Wigglesworth. Kenyon, Austin-Sparks, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, Watch Tower/JW, etc. in cluding John Nelson Darby and Plymouth Brethern, all between 1940 and 1960.
I wonder if he already had Bullinger's books before he spoke to R0salind R1nker. He probably also had Ruben Archer Torrey's materials, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Smith Wigglesworth. Kenyon, Austin-Sparks, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, Watch Tower/JW, etc. in cluding John Nelson Darby and Plymouth Brethern, all between 1940 and 1960.
When I followed the timeline, it looked like R1nker (I think it was her) introduced him to Bullinger, then vpw immersed himself in everything EWB, then immediately turned around and began using it. vpw's style was often to parrot immediately what another taught without stopping to "make it his own." So BGL's class was "xeroxed" in its entirety, Stiles' book was retyped almost word-for-word, Bullinger's work was transferred over point-for-point even with vpw copying mistakes, etc. So, unlikely he did- unless he did and didn't crack them open until she said something.[/b[
When I followed the timeline, it looked like R1nker (I think it was her) introduced him to Bullinger, then vpw immersed himself in everything EWB, then immediately turned around and began using it. vpw's style was often to parrot immediately what another taught without stopping to "make it his own." So BGL's class was "xeroxed" in its entirety, Stiles' book was retyped almost word-for-word, Bullinger's work was transferred over point-for-point even with vpw copying mistakes, etc. So, unlikely he did- unless he did and didn't crack them open until she said something.[/b[
Dr. E.E. Higgins..........she introduced wierwille to Bullinger.
She sat in the same pfal class in 1957, when the foundational and advanced material were together, as Ermal and Dorothy Owens. For much of the class, she sat with her arms crossed and near the back of the room. Slowly, she warmed to the material being presented.
On page 102, Mrs. W's book..........."Dr. Higgns was the person who introduced Dr. Wierwille to the great and influential works of an Englishman named E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913). She gave Dr. Wierwille his first Companion Bible, containing the notes and appendix information of E.W. Bullinger, and a copy of How to Enjoy the Bible, also written by E.W. Bullinger."
Once again, seems we have a very different way of looking at things.
So, since it's still off-topic for this thread, start the new thread on your topic wherever you think is appropriate. If the staff disagrees on the location, they can move it. Either way, the content will stay the same and can be discussed wherever it is. But first you have to START the new thread.
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Rocky
This is what I think of when the year 1942 is mentioned. Wierwille's story is not necessarily as attractive.
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waysider
Based on the information we have seen so far, it wasn't only VPW that lied.
VPW said that God promised him He would teach him "the word" like it hadn't been known for 2,000 years. We now know, thanks to Mike, VPW's staunchest advocate , that the information had, in fact, been known for quite some time. What Wierwille did, according to Mike, was take existing material and "assemble" it in a way it hadn't been assembled before. Plagiarism issues aside for the moment, what this means is that God must have lied when He made the promise to VPW. He promised Wierwille exclusive information but, instead, pulled a fast one on VPW by giving him previously known material to assemble. Of course, I don't actually believe this. Still, it suggests God was lying when He made the promise.
edit: "God is not a man, that He should lie..." (Numbers 23:19)
Edited by waysideradd scripture
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JayDee
The question I had with his statement (which may have been discussed in a previous thread) is “What was Jesus Christ doing for his body the church, since the first century”? Sitting idly by waiting for VeePee to show up? What delusional arrogance. What a crock of caca.
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OldSkool
Appareantly he was playing hooky, vpw always claimed Christ was absent.
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WordWolf
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
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Twinky
You're making an assumption that VPW knew anything of church history. If there were any such classes in the seminary he went to, he must have snoozed through them.
Very good point, although many early Christians weren't of Jewish background but converted from other religions/idols.
A point that still stands today; there are many countries where Christians are persecuted (especially in Arab countries). Yet still people CHOOSE to convert, knowing that the penalties for doing so are huge. Such people know that there is something better, bigger, more powerful. They don't learn that from the TWI example of meanness and shouting. They learn from something they SEE (experience and power) in other Christians, as well as something they HEAR from them.
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WordWolf
Actually, I'm pointing out that his great IGNORANCE of Church history has led to him claiming he got a promise from God Almighty that was STUPID
Just as he claimed angels lied to hm rather than admit a fraud, I'm sure he'd blame God Almighty for that than admit his fraud.
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WordWolf
Since someone claimed to have some sort of reply for this thread, I'm bumping it up to make it easier to find. By all means, if someone has anything of substance to add to this thread, let them post it and we can discuss it. If it's legit, it will stand scrutiny. If it's not legit, no point in basing one's personal philosophy on it.
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TLC
Seems I find myself in disagreement with the essence of that. "They" (which from the context of your post, appears to be aimed at the church that was based in Jerusalem), and the Word of God that they knew (be it the Torah/Old Testament, the SPOKEN word, or The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER), didn't get to Saul or get him to do anything - aside from hauling them off to prison and making sure they were sentenced to death.
And, as for the Greeks, I don't see that it was anything that they believed as a result of something they saw (or experienced) that turned the world upside down. Instead, I think it was their response to the words that Paul spoke - which they then believed to be the Word of God - which turned the world upside down. For 1500 years, the most incredible signs, miracles and wonders that can possibly be imagined continually failed to keep Israel on track. Sure, maybe they worked temporarily to steer them in the right direction. But, sooner or later, the effect wore off, and Israel was back in the crapper. And when all things prophesied beforehand began to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ, where was Israel? Out to lunch. Couldn't recognize the signs of the times, even when it hit them right between the eyes. Risen from the dead, with MANY infallible proofs, with MANY witnesses, and still - those that KNEW the law would not believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah that had been promised (by the Word of God) to their fathers.
What then... do you suppose that Israel was (and were) simply the wrong choice? So now God simply choses a different people or nation(s) to believe His Word, His promises, because of what THEY (this newly selected group) see with their eyes, or experience with their senses?
Well, that's certainly not how I see it going down. Granted, Saul was evidently one of those hard headed Israelites that couldn't believe squat unless... something in the senses realm knocked him on his arse. Which, as you know, happened. Because... God was ready to go a completely different direction. Saul's response? Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? Just say whatever it is... I will do it. So, real or true believing is the response God wants to simply hearing His Word - tout seul. Which, incidentally, shows up in the next chapter of Acts (i.e., with the household of Cornelius. Which Peter evidently forgets until many years later, when he finally recalls it in order to come to Paul's defense in Acts 15.)
Sure, it's no secret that the Corinthians were carnally minded. And what better way was there to condition and cement the mind into an extremely senses oriented view of everything in life aside from sex and the endorphins and dopamine it releases in the brain? So, let's not forget to take that into account when reading 1&2 Corinthians. More importantly, consider what's first written to the church in Thessalonica, in 1Thes.2:13.
Okay, enough on this already. Not sure what else I could say on it that explains this particular perspective on it any better. But it's a prominent distinction between Paul's gospel, and the gospel of the Kingdom.
The church centered at Jerusalem? I'd agree, at least, for a while. I'm just not sure how deep into Acts that really extends. Nor am I sure (or convinced of) how much "staying power" that kind of ministry has, or might ever (really) have. However, that said, I would agree with this:
I just don't think anybody has ever known it as it was originally given to the apostle Paul.
Parts of it? ...perhaps. Just not as well, or in its entirety. But, maybe that's by design. As neither has anyone since ever needed to. What's written has been written. And perhaps the beauty of all the individual members of the body working together, rather mysteriously, to carry out the ministry of reconciliation exemplifies the goodness and manifold wisdom of God (and in ways that cannot be attributed to anyone in particular, either individually or as a particular sect, aside from Christ alone - being the head of the body. And in ways that will eventually reward genuine believing - which is not predicated by, or reliant on, trusting whatever is known by the senses, or through the wisdom of men.)
Edited by TLCadded last paragraph
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WordWolf
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. They got Saul of Tarsus, former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
"Seems I find myself in disagreement with the essence of that. "They" (which from the context of your post, appears to be aimed at the church that was based in Jerusalem), and the Word of God that they knew (be it the Torah/Old Testament, the SPOKEN word, or The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER), didn't get to Saul or get him to do anything - aside from hauling them off to prison and making sure they were sentenced to death."
I'm drawing a contrast between the verbiage-heavy, study-based system vpw propagated, and the simpler, action-based system in Acts. Saul of Tarsus consented to the deaths of Christians and their imprisonment for the "crime" of being Christians. He was a somewhat fanatical Jew-which made him actively anti-Christian. Would a speech reach him? No- somebody like that needs to see something. In his case, it wasn't a sales-pitch for a green-card, but being blown off his horse by a flash of light that spoke to him and gave him temporary blindness. THAT got his attention. Until then-and a day or so to think it over- no speech would have gotten through. When I say "they got" it was in the sense of "and FC Barcelona got Lionel Messi that season." ("We got Potter!") Saul of Tarsus joined the team.
"And, as for the Greeks, I don't see that it was anything that they believed as a result of something they saw (or experienced) that turned the world upside down. Instead, I think it was their response to the words that Paul spoke - which they then believed to be the Word of God - which turned the world upside down."
Acts 14: 7-13 (KJV)
7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
Acts 4: 14-16 (KJV)
14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
Acts 5:12-16
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Acts 6:8-10
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Acts 8:5-13
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 9:32-35
32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
33 And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy.
34 And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.
35 And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.
Acts 9:36-42
36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
They certainly preached- but with nothing to see, there would not have been as dramatic a conversion rate. People SAW things, people EXPERIENCED things. It's one thing to believe someone can get healed- but if YOU'RE the one healed, it's hard to be convinced it didn't happen. I'm pretty sure the man born blind and the lame at the temple gate Beautiful weren't convinced that it was all just pretty speeches once they got their healing-they knew the difference.
On the other hand, Paul did preach without the miracles, and the results weren't a swelling of converts.
Acts 17:21
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time
in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
A few converts joined, but the majority were just there for some entertainment and new philosophy. The Greeks who saw miracles sat up and paid attention.
Is it possible to see a similarity between vpw's preaching about Greek words and Paul's preaching and miracles? vpw talked a good game, but when it came time to demonstrate power, he didn't. Saul of Tarsis got confused for a Greco-Roman god on the basis of ONE dramatic miracle. No reasonable person would look at the results of both and say there's little or no difference between them.
The POINT OF THIS THREAD is to point out how the 1942 promise failed to match reality and is rather clearly not a promise from God. If you want to get into a different subject, please take it to a different thread.
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TLC
Odd, how it appears by repeating your entire earlier post you make it look like I was in disagreement with the entirety of it. And then, rather than pick up on the actual point of it, your concern is merely to reinforcing your prescribed solution to what the history of the church was in the first century. Just because the perspective I hold is (evidently) very different than yours doesn't mean that I think TWI any better fits with or fulfills "the 1942 promise." But, seems you were so focused on your own angle on it, that you missed that (and anything else of value.)
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TLC
Frankly, I don't recall actually thinking or caring much about whether he did or didn't demonstrate power back then. What I did think and care more about was how God worked in my own life, and whether I demonstrated power. (And I don't think I was alone in that respect.) But, after long last seeing that for the egotism that sort of thinking breeds, as well as taking a much closer and more honest look at when the church of the body of Christ started (it wasn't Acts 2) and how it operates, I hold a very, very different view on the need, value, and significance of this "demonstrating power."
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Twinky
It wasn't because of any 1942 promise that I got excited about understanding the Bible better.
Those amazing miracles recorded in Acts got my attention. I read Acts and it was exciting! Wow, that stuff happened? That stuff is what is available? Where is it? I don't see it in the local churches. They're boring.
So soon after, when I met a WoW, who knew a lot of Bible but more to the point, prayed about things and they happened, wow! that got my attention. A lot of strange and unexplainable things happened when he was around - he prayed, astonishing things happened, everything went well. I wanted to know how to get prayers answered. To be able to work miracles, to help people in that miraculous way.
It was one sees, seeing the power of God in action, seeing and knowing it's real, experiencing God at work, where there are results - that's what gets attention.
Ultimately, this WoW got badly hurt by C G33r, but that (at that time) didn't damage his confidence in God.
So I don't know about 1942 promises. The WoW believed it, I think; it wasn't really a talking point; he believed that God would hear and answer. He believed the word taught, having rejected an idolatrous RC upbringing. It was the simple faith of young and enthusiastic believers that got through to many people, worldwide. It was results, not words or fake promises.
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, great post! Thanks for the information!
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WordWolf
Sounds worth discussing. Since it's not really "About The Way", perhaps you'd like to open a new thread in Doctrinal about that very thing. Yes, I'm trying to keep this thread focused. You've missed the past decade or more of posting, but there's always someone intentionally looking to derail any thread that exposes twi faults or vpw faults. We don't need anyone accidentally derailing it before they start posting in it. :)
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WordWolf
Sometimes I really DO forget how long we've been doing this, and how many discussions of substance have passed through here. This was really more a summary of what other posters pointed out long ago, across different threads.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I wonder if he already had Bullinger's books before he spoke to Rosalind Rinker. He probably also had Ruben Archer Torrey's materials, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Smith Wigglesworth. Kenyon, Austin-Sparks, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, Watch Tower/JW, etc. in cluding John Nelson Darby and Plymouth Brethern, all between 1940 and 1960.
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WordWolf
When I followed the timeline, it looked like R1nker (I think it was her) introduced him to Bullinger, then vpw immersed himself in everything EWB, then immediately turned around and began using it. vpw's style was often to parrot immediately what another taught without stopping to "make it his own." So BGL's class was "xeroxed" in its entirety, Stiles' book was retyped almost word-for-word, Bullinger's work was transferred over point-for-point even with vpw copying mistakes, etc. So, unlikely he did- unless he did and didn't crack them open until she said something.[/b[
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skyrider
Dr. E.E. Higgins..........she introduced wierwille to Bullinger.
She sat in the same pfal class in 1957, when the foundational and advanced material were together, as Ermal and Dorothy Owens. For much of the class, she sat with her arms crossed and near the back of the room. Slowly, she warmed to the material being presented.
On page 102, Mrs. W's book..........."Dr. Higgns was the person who introduced Dr. Wierwille to the great and influential works of an Englishman named E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913). She gave Dr. Wierwille his first Companion Bible, containing the notes and appendix information of E.W. Bullinger, and a copy of How to Enjoy the Bible, also written by E.W. Bullinger."
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TLC
odd. 'cause I thought it pretty much was...
Once again, seems we have a very different way of looking at things.
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WordWolf
So, since it's still off-topic for this thread, start the new thread on your topic wherever you think is appropriate. If the staff disagrees on the location, they can move it. Either way, the content will stay the same and can be discussed wherever it is. But first you have to START the new thread.
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