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Can salvation be lost?


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On 6/9/2018 at 4:27 AM, WordWolf said:

chockfull:

Born again

Born from above

Saved

...

I'd add all the critical tetms we're all going to dance around. So, you started with

I'd add "incorruptible....seed... eternal..life..." (4 terms)  and reserve the right to call for more terms to be defined when they come up.

 

While I may be wrong, but I don't believe one can discuss OSAS without also dipping into Dispensational theology. And as such a number of terms being thrown around may not have the same meaning.  So just my thoughts, but one will need to define:

Jew

Gentile

"church" of God.. 

Especially since Gentile is such a non-Biblical word for a biblical thought that doesn't always hold water when ethos/gowyim is used. And the verse with the three actually uses the word for Greeks not the word for nations/ethos(masquerading as Gentiles in most verses it appears).

Also

kingdom of God

seed of Abraham

body of Christ

......

 

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Also to help full disclosure here, I do not believe in dispensationalist theology of any kind nor OSAS(once saved always saved).  I believe the scriptures are clear from beginning to end, Genesis to Revelations and they speak of the same thing from start to finish regarding God's saving grace, and mercy.  I believe God's plan has never changed from the moment this created world began, and that plan was His kingdom, whereby being saved from the ever dying world has always been by means of and through the works of our Lord. 

I'll attach a document I've used at times when discussing this topic (OSAS).  It is from a non-biased point of view, IMHO. As it has 2 columns. One side lists verses concerning OSAS (Permanence) and the other listing verses concerning Conditional.  It only lists verses from the Epistles on the Conditional side, so as to not bring up the inevitable hidden man in the corner(Dispensationalists).  And that's all it is.. Just verses. Pro/Against.  I've found it helpful at times.. And while not exhaustive, it's the primary ones usually discussed.

Once_Saved_Always_Saved.pdf

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Nice list. I suspect that both "sides" are making a fundamental mistake.  Stipulating to that list, it appears that there's a number of verses saying "conditional", and a number of verses saying "unconditional."   This points towards one of 2 conclusions:

A) the Bible is contradictory in major ways and thus is unreliable for doctrine like this

B) the verses saying "conditional" are addressing one thing consistently, and the verses saying "unconditional" are addressing something else consistently.

That's my thinking, you're welcome to draw your own conclusions.  Then again, we're still beginning this discussion, so who knows where we will end up before it's over?

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8 hours ago, TrustAndObey said:

I'll attach a document I've used at times when discussing this topic (OSAS).

That's quite a list!  It has done NOTHING to help clarify, for me, whether salvation is permanent or not.  It looks, at first look, that it can go either way.  And so...

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

the verses saying "conditional" are addressing one thing consistently, and the verses saying "unconditional" are addressing something else consistently.

I agree with WordWolf.  Now to try to determine what those different things are.

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:20 PM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

TLC does not follow dictor Paul. He’s a hyperdispensationalist just like his idols, Bullinger, Welch, Schofield, et al. To rely on the KJV, which is to rely upon Stephens’ Critical Greek Text compiled in 1550, is completely misguided. Even dictor “taught” there are NO ORIGINALS. So, he simply systematized the errors of the genuine Biblical scholars he plagiarized. 

Given that my previous response to your banal posting and its snide quips seems to have stirred the pot a bit much (as it appears to have been removed), I won't bother with it much further other than point out the fact that you, Mr. D, are plainly clueless as to who I am, what my background is, how I think, what I do and don't know, and why I believe what I do. And when you bother trying to persuade or convince anyone else that you know more than you do, it actually shows up as nothing more than a reflection upon your own real ignorance.

Scoff and huff and puff all you want, but for the record, dispensationlism (in more general terms) is quite alive and well outside the walls of this puny little forum, though it doesn't necessarily appear in the exact same form as might be ensconced in the works of any (or all) of Bullinger, Welch, Schofiel, et al.  (Nor does this link encompass or surmise the complete essence or totality of it - http://www.charlottetownbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/David-Dunlap-handout.pdf )

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:43 AM, TrustAndObey said:

While I may be wrong, but I don't believe one can discuss OSAS without also dipping into Dispensational theology. And as such a number of terms being thrown around may not have the same meaning.

Oh for sure, it can be discussed.  Just like you can keep the blinders on a horse if you want to be sure to lead them where you want them to go.  Just means you probably have a certain end in mind before entering the discussion.

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, TrustAndObey said:

...I believe the scriptures are clear from beginning to end, Genesis to Revelations and they speak of the same thing from start to finish regarding God's saving grace, and mercy.  I believe God's plan has never changed from the moment this created world began, and that plan was His kingdom, whereby being saved from the ever dying world has always been by means of and through the works of our Lord. 

I have no issue believing likewise.  It's merely a matter of understanding how his saving grace and mercy are dispensed.

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, TrustAndObey said:

...I believe God's plan has never changed from the moment this created world began, and that plan was His kingdom, whereby being saved from the ever dying world has always been by means of and through the works of our Lord. 

And I see it being from before Adam (but not Genesis 1:1).

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On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 2:01 PM, Taxidev said:
On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:09 AM, WordWolf said:

the verses saying "conditional" are addressing one thing consistently, and the verses saying "unconditional" are addressing something else consistently.

I agree with WordWolf.  Now to try to determine what those different things are.

Yeah, and good luck with that trying to stay away from dispensationalism.

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42 minutes ago, TLC said:

Given that my previous response to your banal posting and its snide quips seems to have stirred the pot a bit much (as it appears to have been removed), I won't bother with it much further other than point out the fact that you, Mr. D, are plainly clueless as to who I am, what my background is, how I think, what I do and don't know, and why I believe what I do

It's not addressed to me but I will respond by saying I really don't care who you are, what your background is, how you think  or what you do or don't know.  I am curious, though, why you continue to believe in a concept that has no scriptural basis while professing yourself to be an "expert" on all things biblical.. 

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27 minutes ago, TLC said:

Yeah, and good luck with that trying to stay away from dispensationalism.

It's probably unavoidable, but then, I'm not trying to avoid it.  It just seemed like a viable concept.

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12 hours ago, TLC said:

 

Scoff and huff and puff all you want, but for the record, dispensationlism (in more general terms) is quite alive and well outside the walls of this puny little forum, though it doesn't necessarily appear in the exact same form as might be ensconced in the works of any (or all) of Bullinger, Welch, Schofiel, et al.  (Nor does this link encompass or surmise the complete essence or totality of it - http://www.charlottetownbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/David-Dunlap-handout.pdf )

TLC, Dispensationalism is still the most popular view of eschatology but it is in decline for various reasons...the time statements within the Book of Revelation being one of them.  Dispensationalists are even admitting to this decline as confirmed at 1:49 in this video of a futurist/preterist debate although I disagree with their reasons why.

  

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20 hours ago, waysider said:

It's not addressed to me but I will respond by saying I really don't care who you are, what your background is, how you think  or what you do or don't know.

Of course it wasn't addressed to you, as you weren't the one trying to define me and persuade others of it.  So why bother stating the inherently obvious, that you don't care, when I don't care that you don't care? 

20 hours ago, waysider said:

 I am curious, though, why you continue to believe in a concept that has no scriptural basis while professing yourself to be an "expert" on all things biblical.. 

And, though I do not (and have not) professed myself to be an "expert on all things biblical," I'm curious why you think yourself much more the expert, in that your claiming the concept has no scriptural basis should have or bear so much more authority or weight than me writing something about what I might happen to believe...  

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18 hours ago, waysider said:

Dispensationalism is a rationalization. It's a way of explaining away the very real contradictions that exist in the scriptures. It's a way of deluding yourself into believing the scriptures are inerrant.

If scripture cannot be broken, then it is inerrant... regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks so. (John 10:35.)  So perhaps you ought to remove that from your argument against it.  Which would leave your previous claim juxtapositioned alone against a way of understanding a great many (if not most all) apparent contradictions that exist in the scriptures. 

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Inerrancy is only possible if you allow for a dispensational approach to the scriptures. Without it, there are contradictions. This is one of the big things that was stressed in the PFAL class. "They only seem like contradictions because you fail to recognize who they were addressed to, etc" (dispensations)

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7 hours ago, Infoabsorption said:

TLC, Dispensationalism is still the most popular view of eschatology but it is in decline for various reasons...the time statements within the Book of Revelation being one of them.  Dispensationalists are even admitting to this decline as confirmed at 1:49 in this video of a futurist/preterist debate although I disagree with their reasons why.  

Surely you don't suppose that being (or becoming) more or less popular actually adds or subtracts anything to its veracity.  However, thanks anyways for the video, which I may continue listening to it if/when I have more time.                              

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2 hours ago, TLC said:

If scripture cannot be broken, then it is inerrant... regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks so. (John 10:35.)  So perhaps you ought to remove that from your argument against it.  Which would leave your previous claim juxtapositioned alone against a way of understanding a great many (if not most all) apparent contradictions that exist in the scriptures. 

It’s possible “the scripture cannot be broken” in John 10:35 refers to something other than inerrancy...Barnes’ notes on the Bible says of that phrase - the authority of scripture is final - it cannot be set aside...it appears Jesus was defending himself against the charge of blasphemy by appealing to the Old Testament - Psalm 82:6... look at other places where “broken” is used in reference to breaking the law of scripture : John 5:18 - “not only was he breaking the Sabbath “ and John 7:23 “circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses is not broken”...it I could be wrong but I take the phrase to mean something similar to how we view our country’s laws...no one is above the law - it is the final authority- no one can set it aside...can laws be broken ? Yes people do it all the time.

 

Sorry for this aside on another interpretation of “scripture cannot be broken” that does not equate it with inerrancy - but like a lot of other interesting points on this thread, maybe it warrants a whole new thread...

== == ==

now getting back to the topic - I would like to ask a few questions - which have been stated earlier by others as well:

What is the biblical definition of “salvation “?

What does it mean for the Christian?

How does one know whether or not they are saved?

Is salvation something that can be lost?

 

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4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Ok, can we start trying to get some definitions going, or does everyone want another few rounds before we start?

Then perhaps there should be some relatively early attempts to isolate and/or pin down more precisely what salvation can, does, or might mean.

Frankly, I'd be curious to know if anyone can show (or explain) how or why (prior to Paul) it means anything much more than, or something other than, the following:

 -saved/redeemed/delivered/rescued (take your pick)

1) from our (i.e., Israel's) enemies, or
2) from (physical) sickness and/or death  

Granted, the "entry into the kingdom of God" might allude to something more than this... but, from the perspective of how it was likely thought of or seen by his disciples, I suspect not.

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On 6/13/2018 at 2:50 PM, Taxidev said:

Incorruptible: I like Thayer's definition - "not liable to decay, imperishable"     Strong and Bullinger are in agreement, for the most part.

Anyone else agree?

I do, but would prefer to add  "unable to rot" to that, and change "liable" (awkward word) to either "not ABLE to decay" or "not SUBJECT to decay" or "not ELIGIBLE to decay."  I can easily see someone stumbling over "liable" and vpw would certainly have gone off on how that meant it was LEGAL to decay or something.  (Thank you for not going the lazy route and saying "unable to corrupt" and calling it a day.)

 

Anyone else on "incorruptible"? 

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On 6/11/2018 at 12:09 PM, WordWolf said:

Nice list. I suspect that both "sides" are making a fundamental mistake.  Stipulating to that list, it appears that there's a number of verses saying "conditional", and a number of verses saying "unconditional."   This points towards one of 2 conclusions:

A) the Bible is contradictory in major ways and thus is unreliable for doctrine like this

B) the verses saying "conditional" are addressing one thing consistently, and the verses saying "unconditional" are addressing something else consistently.

That's my thinking, you're welcome to draw your own conclusions.  Then again, we're still beginning this discussion, so who knows where we will end up before it's over?

If it is ok with you WW, might I add one of probably many other possible conclusions?

It may be that both are RIGHT AND they are addressing the very same thing. BUT they are looking at that same thing from different perspectives.  A time perspective? A functional perspective?

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On 6/11/2018 at 4:01 PM, Taxidev said:

That's quite a list!  It has done NOTHING to help clarify, for me, whether salvation is permanent or not.  It looks, at first look, that it can go either way.  And so...

I agree with WordWolf.  Now to try to determine what those different things are.

That actually was the point of the list.. It is a good opener for the discussion that does nothing to solve the problem but rather to make it more visible.  It is not exhaustive however, and I regret to have used the word unbiased when posting it.  Since one could say it is biased towards permanence in that it lists them first and adds verses from other parts of the scriptures. And others could say it biases the conditional side because it happens to have more verses on that side.  But the point was to try and be as unbiased as possible, and not lead either side to anything more than realizing this subject is much larger than just saying we have an "apparent contradiction" between what the apostle Paul said and what the book of James says. By faith or by works. Hebrews vs Romans.  Old covenant vs New covenant.  The law versus grace. Jesus vs Paul.  The tabernacle of Moses vs the tabernacle of David.  Abraham vs Israel. Israel vs Judah.  Judah vs Ephraim. Adam vs Eve. Adam vs Adam and Israel vs Israel.

And dispensational theology is NOT the answer.  Throwing out books of the Bible and verses in the name of "it's not written to me", is not the answer.   Ignoring the 10 ton gorilla in the room is not the answer either.

But I believe chockfull's direction on defining terms is definitely a great start!

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