I am going to go back up and read the long post by "Mike" which I assume includes details about the "Lost Teaching". But first I want to post this observation.
But...
(What follows is my opinion. You don't have to agree with it)
...it sickens me when I see VP Wierwille referred to reverentiallly as "Doctor"; not just Dr. Wierwille, but just plain Doctor. (What did "Doctor" want us to do?) Some of my fellow GS Cafe-ers believe VP taught the truth, and some view him as a man of God. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's not my opinion.
Not only did he (again, in my opinion) misrepresent what the bible said, what research was, and even what his credentials were, but he set the stage for the egregious errors and abuses of the Martindale era, and indeed perpetrated many of those same abuses himself.
Seeing him talked about with apparent awe, and his last words given such credence (and the evidence that his last words are so important is other words by him!) makes me ill.
And "Mike": you're asking Pamsandiego and Mandii to vouch for you? Vouch for you that you're not Craig? That you're an ex-Way guy? That you are sane? Vouch for what? Hey, I've known Mandii since the 70's, and like and respect her (and like her cooking too) but her "vouching" for you won't give your opinion any credibility if it doesn't make sense!
I guess I've taken a lot of words to say basically what OCD said!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 23:23.]
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 23:24.]
This teaching was never "lost". I have read it before. I have a copy of it on my computer.
Ok folks, here is where this is going.
The idea to be presented is that Wierwille's writings are "scripture" and that they are all "god-breathed" and just as valuable if not more so than the Bible itself.
You can bet that Mike will eventually explain it after the song and dance routine.
Next we will learn the great "treasure" that has been lost for 17 years - that the Word of Wierwille is the will of God.
Dr. give me a break. vp was no Dr. . Did you ever see the wissard of Oz?
In vp's last teaching in his big building in the woods he rails on and on about men and women dressing nice because this is holy ground. He takes more time reviewing dress code for his little church then the bible.
If there was one single event that moved me away from the Way Int. that was it. The straw was the popo paper.
Did I ever thank Chris? Hey thanks Chris I needed a push to give me a chance to redeem my life for the real world. You just helped move the old curtain so I could see all the wizzards behind them, including you.
Mike I'll pray for you. After all these years you are finding lost teachings. Maybe you should hook up with a guy here he goes by Oldies.
What was that line you had Gods insturction to us? I need a barf bag.
At the end of my life I hope I have more to show than stolen material and ideas that surely will no pass the test of fire.
[This message was edited by Danny on December 27, 2002 at 4:10.]
Mike, I think the unanimity of the replies here reflects more on Wierwille than on the individual posters. Think about it.
Why is Wierwille shown such disrespect? Because, quite simply, he earned it by being a liar, serial sexual predator of the lowest kind, gross plaigarist and wearing powder blue tuxedos with ruffled shirts.
Try listening to folks whose character has earned them the right to speak to others: Try Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Billy Graham, Augustine, Tyndale. You may learn something.
Is anyone else having a serious case of deja vu? I mean, we've been here before. I am just SURE of it: someone came along and posted Wierwille's last teaching, citing the Living Victoriously comment where Wierwille says "if I knew this was the last time blah blah blah."
I am as concerned with Wierwille's last teaching as I am with Oswald Chambers', CS Lewis', etc. In other words, not at all.
It's the content of the message that counts, not the gravity placed on it by the messenger. Wierwille's last teaching has some kind of profound importance? Oh, for heaven's sake.
Hope you had a good night's sleep, Mike.
P.S. "The Joy of Service" was also a chapter in the book "Our Times," edited by Chris Geer and published in 1990.
Gosh, this is a little like writing a diary on a men’s room toilet stall.
That is probably the most insightful statement you've made yet! there is hope!
It must break your heart that VPee is not even mentioned by name at theway.org
maybe your compulsion to get the lost teaching out should be directed toward current followers! They've apparantly forgotten about "the teacher" altogether!
and now i'm a little more embarrassed about being involved with The Way (I didn't think that was possible)
I was really hoping it was new revelation regarding the two drink limit!
Sorry for the "graffiti" Mike, I just can't take this seriously....really!
again, good luck with the project, it should keep you busy for a while here
And please don't try to tell me that PFAL = The Word of God. It ain't so.
First off, much of it was plagiarized from outside sources - and there have been many discussions about that, and evidence shown.
Second, much of it is just plain wrong. The law of believing, for example. Believing = receiving. That's not a law, that's a magic formula. Sure, there is principle behind that statement, but the material that docvic uses to exemplify that statement is rubbish. And that's just one example.
Who "authored" PFAL? Docvic. So naturally he would promote it. Naturally he would indicate that it was the most important thing in the world, exalting it even above the Bible.
Sorry, Mike, if you are looking for the PFAL/Docvic fan club, it ain't here. Try CFF, or Rearend Geer's outfit, or one of the many other sphincter, er, splinter groups.
Anyway, I didn't and don't intend this post as a personal attack, and forgive me if you take it that way. I respect the amount of effort you have put into your posts here, and commend you on your heart of service.
This is creepy, only goes to show that Chris Geer and his novel POP were only the first in a long line of "speeches from the dead" attributed to VP Wierwille.
For God's sake, let vpw be dead, and those of us still living, live without the constant ghosts!
I guess by now I’ve done enough explaining (on another thread) as to why I choose to turn a deaf ear to certain topics. I can do more explaining, later, if I believe someone wants to listen to more detail. My decision to ignore these certain is quite deliberate, and I did it only after considering, for a large number of years, the same types of things that GS discusses. I’m not trying to pull any rank, it’s just an accident of history that I had to deal with all this ten years before all you did. In addition, I have had the opportunity, more than most, to review not only all the usual GS info, but I’ve also had the opportunity to ponder in great detail the positive side, the tape/print record of Dr’s. I have no wife nor children, and my job usually allows me tons of free time.
After weighing more data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you, I feel confident in rejecting your unanimity on all these negative subjects regarding VPW. This is not a glassy eyed hero worshiper type of a decision. It’s a decision that I knew was very unpopular and that I’d loose friends over. I even lost a wife over it. How many of you stand up to disapproval like this? How many of you really stood up to the abuses as you saw your fellow believers getting trounced by the Corps Gestapo? Or did you wait until you, yourself were a victim before you got angry? Did you speak up before they kicked you out, or did you only speak up at a time and place where you were safe, like far from of TWI and in the approving arms of GSers?
I was a very lone and lonely voice against the problems in the ministry and I learned to ignore the disapproval of corrupt minded leadership. Well corrupt minded leadership rises up in any and every human organization, so if you don’t start learning to go against the stream here in GS, then you’ll get bit in the butt again.
So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on, but these are the items that most GSers seem to get hung up on. With that said, I’m going to continue making the data available to those who want it.
Dr's Last/Lost Teaching was quite interesting when it was first shown to me five years ago. For me, this was a great personal discovery. A real eye opener! I didn't discover it, it came to me. This reminds me of how we were often taught to think "I didn't really find God, He found ME."
As the years went by I continued to see more, especially as I studied certain items in the record Dr left us: tapes, magazine articles, and books. The implications of Dr's last teaching are voluminous, and to just give you a taste of what I'm talking about, I'm including below an essay that evolved from e-mailings with friends about this teaching. Several more letter/essays have developed in these recent years after I "discovered" the teaching, and I'd be happy to share them with you also, if you so desire.
So many people wonder what the heck happened to our wonderful ministry, me included. This is my feeble attempt to describe what I've found out so far. If you have better information, then I'm all ears. I've attempted to find out about our family of believers:
(1) what went right originally,
(2) what went wrong years ago, and
(3) what we can do about it right now.
This particular letter/essay below is about "The Joy of Serving" and some of its implications. I don't claim to have the entire story, nor can I say all the details are perfect. I had to guess in places. It's the implications that are more solid for me, and are much more positive. I'm open to any feedback or correction on these historical details.
This letter is on the second topic: (2)"what went wrong," so it's touches on a few negatives, but I try to do it in a constructive way, and it also leads into the other topics that are quite positive.
*************************************************
Dear Oscar,
It's very exciting to discuss with you the relatively recent discovery of Dr. Wierwille's Last/Lost Teaching. The reason I call it "lost" is because 90 to 95 percent of all PFAL grads never saw it, and the remainder never REALLY carried it out, including me. I've conducted a poll around the country for several years now, and most grads think Dr's last teaching was "The Hope." This was, indeed, his last teaching at Way Headquarters in New Knoxville, however, about two weeks later he gave his VERY last public teaching in Scotland, titled "The Joy of Serving."
Now here's where the story gets murky, and I'm still trying to find out exactly what happened next. I've asked many of our former leaders around the country for details, but few have been cooperative. So far what I know is that the tape of Dr's last teaching was somewhat ignored, possibly for a year or more. A short clip of it appeared on the Corps tape sent out two days after Dr's death. The whole tape was eventually played for the clergy by Chris Geer, but I think it was a year later, during the turmoil of 1986.
Somewhere around 1986, some circles of Corps people lightly distributed the tape around, and it was listened to by some, even repeatedly, for a short time. However, in my efforts to investigate all this 12 years later, I found not one report of any organized efforts to execute Dr's mastery instructions by anyone at all. I found several people who thought they themselves had already mastered PFAL, and so they argued the teaching didn't apply to them. Few leaders paid it proper regard, and even fewer relayed to the body of believers it's contents, and STILL EVEN FEWER actually carried it out...really none at all.
It's plain to see that TWICE we are instructed to master certain things: the foundational and intermediate classes and the class collateral books. Interestingly enough he did NOT say to master any translation or version of the Bible, nor the Advanced Class, nor any Corps training.
Now what does "master" mean? That's a big subject. In another letter I'll tell you how we have searched the books and magazines to see how Dr used that word in other settings. That gets pretty exciting. But for now let's focus on a different aspect of this question. Did Dr tell us in his final instructions to master the words he SPOKE the tapes of the class?
This is easy to answer. At the time Dr did his last teaching, the two classes Dr mentioned we must master were not generally available in tape form. The tapes were highly secured, they all had serial numbers on them, and HQ kept track of where all of them were. I worked in Tape Duplicating for two years, so I know this first hand. Those tapes were highly restricted to only trusted leadership, and few ever dared to make a bootleg copy for themselves. If they ever did, they kept it a tight secret.
No, Dr was not telling us to master the tapes. Mastering the Foundational and Intermediate Classes means working the syllabus materials that were available. Dr explicitly stated this in the prior year on the Sound Out'84 tapes. Thus the focus of our mastery was to be on the written materials in our possession. The books and magazines we received as grads then are the main component of Dr's instructions, and should be the focus of our mastery efforts.
These are Dr. Wierwille's dying last words TO ALL OF US, especially to leaders who mistakenly THOUGHT they had already mastered these materials by 1985. In addition to their significance of being his LAST words, he also said these things TWICE. Evidently a PARTIAL mastery (as many top leaders seemed to have accomplished) was not enough. It was also very important that we graduate in our mastery to a spiritual understanding of these written materials from the class. Spiritual, versus a 5-senses, natural understanding was often mentioned by Dr as our destiny. Look at page 14 of Vol.IV "God's Magnified Word."
This kind of mastered knowledge is crucial to us, and Dr knew it so he saved this message to be his last. The adversary knew it too, and in the years since Dr's death the adversary was very successful in downplaying the importance of Dr's final instructions in most leaders' minds, so today it remains almost totally lost.
In the Living Victoriously class, in the first teaching, seventeen minutes into it Dr. teaches very clearly that if he knew that he had one last chance to teach us, he would want to be SURE to teach the MOST IMPORTANT thing he could: master PFAL.
Anyway, the story continues....
In the Sept/Oct 1986 issue of the Way Magazine this precious set of final instructions from our father in the Word to all of us was finally released to non-leadership. But get this: it was a full sixteen months late, AND it was printed right after Chris Geer dropped the bomb at Corps Week and the disastrous Rock '86, so everyone's head was spinning. The big question then was "Who's the boss? Craig or Chris?" and, sadly, the RECORDED, PUBLIC last will and testament of Dr. Wierwille's was overlooked in favor of the supposed, secret last words of Dr to Chris. The fact that these reported private instructions contradicted Dr's public instructions went unnoticed.
I now fully believe that the accusations leveled at Craig, Howard, and Don by Chris regarding their not taking Dr's teachings seriously are equally pertinent to us all, including Mr Geer! I'm sure that if we all had spiritually heard Dr's final instructions immediately after his death, and had REALLY obeyed them, then the ministry wouldn't have died. But we didn't, and it did.
Mastery of Dr's writings is the same as mastering the KJV Bible, with the end goal being the application in love. And the many of the techniques are the same, for instance: knowing where chapters are, frequent and repeated reading, being able to find things quickly in the books, memorizing passages, and even word studies. God taught Dr to precisely handle words just like He taught the Biblical writers. God's teaching to Dr, and then Dr's teaching to us was the best since the first century. Do you know anyone else who heard an audible promise from God to get taught directly by God? (maybe you do, but what do they have to show for it compared to Dr&pfal) These PFAL materials are the final end product of that 1942 promise, and these materials are WORTH mastering.
The above techniques are five senses methods God expects us to utilize. For the spiritual understanding we were taught that revelation begins where the five senses leave off. From the "16 Keys To Walking In The Spirit" in the Advanced Class we were taught that "What you can know by the fives senses, God expects you to know." After we know what we can naturally, then God can teach us the spiritual point of view, and the arena for accomplishing all this is in that set of materials Dr identified in his most important final words addressed to us all. It is with the collaterals books that we need to spend a lot of time.
We all have been either living in ignorance of, or in disobedience to Dr's final instructions for many years now, and the consequences are very apparent. What we have now is not even close to the quality and quantity of love and cooperation we once enjoyed. How many people have we been unable to help these last fourteen years? How many people have we lost? How much of what Dr. taught us has slipped out of our own heads? Is there anyone who is still serious about raising the dead? I'm tired of winging it, spiritually, and I've made my decision. I've returned to a state of ultimate meekness toward Dr, the class, and the collaterals. It worked once before, because this is what God set up.
For years I erroneously thought I had "mastered" those books when I had finished transferring the corrections to the KJV text in my wide margin Bible, and when I could comfortably teach a chapter (or ten) in a fellowship. In this letter above I mentioned several techniques of mastery I had never before dreamed of applying.
When I returned to a serious study of Dr's books I found out very quickly that I had never come even close to REALLY mastering them. This has been very humbling, but also very delightful. We are sitting on a diamond mine, just ready to be tapped.
I pray that you sound out this good news, and return with us to the best God-taught, God-inspired teaching of God's Word since the first century. I do crave to see us unified again on PFAL. It was a great blessing from God, and there's no justifiable reason to do anything else but go back and master what God gave us.
Agape,
Mike
P.S. We found two places where Dr. "hinted" that doing
word studies in his books are valid, and even recommended:
Way Magazine, May/June '79 page 22, middle column,
Mike: I don't doubt your sincerity, heart, or intelligence. The Way attracted many fine people.
However it disturbs me that you want to base "the truth" on a dead man's doctrine.
The head of the church is Jesus! Not Wierwille's doctrine!
The Way did attract me with common sense answers to disturbing questions. Many of the people were simply wonderful. But that damned class got in the way of everything! EVERYTHING! I hate that class! I HATE it.
I'm truly sorry if I offend you with that. But please, we need to learn from our mistakes. Not redo the whole thing and think things will turn out differently this time.
This is the trap most of the offshoots have fallen into. Which is why they are dead and lifeless.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
After weighing more data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you, I feel confident in rejecting your unanimity on all these negative subjects regarding VPW.
And I reject your conclusion right back.
quote:This is not a glassy eyed hero worshiper type of a decision.
Um, yes it is.
quote: It’s a decision that I knew was very unpopular and that I’d loose friends over. I even lost a wife over it.
Sorry to hear that. I honestly would not lose a friend over his opinion of VPW. I would lose a friend who continually insisted that I was ignorant, or lacking in relevant information, who nonetheless declined to provide the information he believes would lead me to the same conclusion.
quote:How many of you stand up to disapproval like this?
Don't patronize us. I'm standing up to it right now, from you.
quote:How many of you really stood up to the abuses as you saw your fellow believers getting trounced by the Corps Gestapo?
You mean, how many of us told our former branch leader to his face that he was full of it and that we were going to follow God and not men, not even TWI? How many of us looked "our" new branch leader in the eye and told him that TWI was abandoning the very principles on which it claimed to be founded? You know, coming on a message board and saying "I like VPW" isn't exactly my idea of courage. Big WHOOP.
quote:Or did you wait until you, yourself were a victim before you got angry? Did you speak up before they kicked you out, or did you only speak up at a time and place where you were safe, like far from of TWI and in the approving arms of GSers?
Mike, I appreciate your blunt honesty, but your comment above... well, it doesn't apply to me, so I'll shut up. But if you want a nickel's worth of free advice, it was a cheap shot.
quote:I was a very lone and lonely voice against the problems in the ministry and I learned to ignore the disapproval of corrupt minded leadership. Well corrupt minded leadership rises up in any and every human organization, so if you don’t start learning to go against the stream here in GS, then you’ll get bit in the butt again.
Sometimes, sometimes, the stream is taking you in the right direction. So listen, what you need to keep in mind is: what is your goal, and how are you going to get there? If that means going against the stream, then go. If it means going with the stream, then go. But if going against the stream means agreeing with you, then I'm dropping my oars in the water right now.
quote:So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on, but these are the items that most GSers seem to get hung up on.
Those are the issues that most clearly demonstrate the flawed character of VPW. Like I said in the other thread, if you dismiss those issues in order to evaluate the doctrine, then I'm totally with you. But if you're going to dismiss those issues in order to continue exalting VPW as some uniquely qualified man of God, then I'm not with you. And it's obvious that you're doing the latter.
quote:With that said, I’m going to continue making the data available to those who want it.
BRING IT ON!!!!
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on December 27, 2002 at 8:42.]
Mike, this would be a profound teaching, if The Way mythology were true. Live by the Word, love by the Word, "first master then serve." Had The Way been built upon the Rock, and had the myth been reality, this teaching would have been the lodestone for the next seven generations.
The myth of his calling, the myth of his ministry, the myth of his class, the myth of his destiny, were, and are, lies. They were concocted, manufactured, packaged and propagandized across The Way Ministry, which itself was, and still is, a little splinter group.
See Mike, whenever Dr. Wierwille taught about service to the believers, it was a kind of code. What he meant, and more importantly, what he expected and got, was service to him. How else do you account for the legions of servants, the court full of courtiers, the gifts and honors and protocols, the erections of monuments, the seasons of heraldry and pageantry of, by, and for a ministry of **supposedly** Christ-centered bible-philes. They were done for a reason, Mike. It was to manufacture a mythology. It worked! Whaddya know! People go for that crap. Look at the Americans fawning over British royalty to this day. We're born suckers Mike. Smell the coffee. You've wasted far too much time already. Don't waste another minute.
Know this Mike. You are living the mythtery. The truth will make you free. Or mad, if you believe Huxley. Let's hope not. Free good, mad bad.
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
Part of your problem is how wordy you are. You probably wrote twenty paragraphs to explain why you are not yet talking about what you are going to talk about.
Also, you seem to be more arrogant than most of us around here. Your views may not be popular, but people are not going to take you seriously for saying things like,
"After weighing more data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you, I feel confident in rejecting your unanimity on all these negative subjects regarding VPW."
Also, with regards to your statements about how much you have suffered as a result of your opinion, I think it was your obsession on it that caused the problems.
Anyway, I wish my memory was better, because there was another person just like you on this site who I believe was ridiculed off of it recently. You'd do good to not follow in his footsteps. Just because you know some people around here doesn't mean everyone will like you. You seem to need help; your act like you have delusions of being the new MOG and act overdramatic about people disagreeing with you on the internet. I would suggest going out and getting a social life rather than obsessing with TWI nonsense.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
58
236
44
53
Popular Days
Dec 29
100
Mar 8
77
Jan 5
74
Dec 27
59
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 58 posts
Mike 236 posts
Tom Strange 44 posts
OldSkool 53 posts
Popular Days
Dec 29 2022
100 posts
Mar 8 2004
77 posts
Jan 5 2003
74 posts
Dec 27 2002
59 posts
Popular Posts
T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
Posted Images
OCD #1
first teaching...last teaching...
who gives a fukk anyway??
you ain't right boy...or is it Loy? lol (laugh out loud)
just thank GOD you're still alive, skip the jive
p.s. find a GOOD hobby....do you play any instruments?
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Was it Christian Family and Sex? It is well know that Victor was not a good example of purity in a marriage relationship.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
did someone say "aloof"?
lmfao ...look it up under internet speak, Mike
"The Last Lost Teaching"
some fukkin dead sea scrolls er sumpin
Why am I thinking about Monty Python??
yuk it up, this could be fun!!!
Was it God's Final Word given to VP for the END of ALL time?
Did it say anything about Craig being a freakin goon and ignoring his forthcoming teachings?
I can't wait....
all i want to know is: Will i look/feel 25 years old forever in the "hereafter"?
can you tell me that?
ROTFFALMFAO!!
if you're really internet illiterate...i'm sorry for being aloof or elusive
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
Right on Mark!
....! it's not even poker!!
it's Charades!
we can guess about what it might be!
"bring out your dead!.... bring out your dead!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
Was the teaching "The Two Drink Limit is Increased to Ten"?
.
.
.
.
.
oh please God, please
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I am going to go back up and read the long post by "Mike" which I assume includes details about the "Lost Teaching". But first I want to post this observation.
But...
(What follows is my opinion. You don't have to agree with it)
...it sickens me when I see VP Wierwille referred to reverentiallly as "Doctor"; not just Dr. Wierwille, but just plain Doctor. (What did "Doctor" want us to do?) Some of my fellow GS Cafe-ers believe VP taught the truth, and some view him as a man of God. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's not my opinion.
Not only did he (again, in my opinion) misrepresent what the bible said, what research was, and even what his credentials were, but he set the stage for the egregious errors and abuses of the Martindale era, and indeed perpetrated many of those same abuses himself.
Seeing him talked about with apparent awe, and his last words given such credence (and the evidence that his last words are so important is other words by him!) makes me ill.
And "Mike": you're asking Pamsandiego and Mandii to vouch for you? Vouch for you that you're not Craig? That you're an ex-Way guy? That you are sane? Vouch for what? Hey, I've known Mandii since the 70's, and like and respect her (and like her cooking too) but her "vouching" for you won't give your opinion any credibility if it doesn't make sense!
I guess I've taken a lot of words to say basically what OCD said!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 23:23.]
[This message was edited by Oakspear on December 26, 2002 at 23:24.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
"Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen
very few answers."
Well, I'd say that's at least partially true.
Then again, it's also been said an atheist is
unable to find any evidence of God for the same
reason a thief is unable to find a policeman.
vpw's dogmatic position was that there was little,
if any, accurate knowledge of God and His Word
outside of twi.
Of course, most of the pfal subject matter came
straight out of books by Bullinger, Kenyon,
Stiles, Larkin, & Leonard. One might wonder why
THEY had any answers, since they never heard of
vpw or twi.
If you had an accurate record of the last things
he intended to say before he died, I'd be
interested in hearing them, but forgive me if I
don't fawn over them & make a religion out of
them.
Pfal was not perfect. We've shown that over &
over here (as have others, elsewhere). vpw was
not perfect. It's been shown that A) he refused
to cite sources to maintain an aura of
"eliteness", as if he figured it all out himself
B) his own moral character was frequently
lacking.
If all I had to offer people, in bringing them to
Christ, was what was offered in the pfal classes
(all 3 levels), a great deal would be lacking.
That "last teaching" was the closing remarks of
a man with an overinflated sense of his
organization, and an underinflated sense of all
Christians outside that organization.
Since I don't have a slavish devotion to either
the man nor his class, I can evaluate both
coldly, & I find neither is the be-all and
end-all this tape suggested.
---------
I also find it funny to suggest that vpw's
"believing" covered for everyone while he was
alive. So, he was some sort of metaphysical
Superman, holding the moon in its proper orbit
while he was here, covering for our utter
failure of believing? Please.
Until you cease worshipping any man or any class
or any organization as the be-all and end-all,
you will stunt your own growth as a Christian,
and then what good are you to God?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
This teaching was never "lost". I have read it before. I have a copy of it on my computer.
Ok folks, here is where this is going.
The idea to be presented is that Wierwille's writings are "scripture" and that they are all "god-breathed" and just as valuable if not more so than the Bible itself.
You can bet that Mike will eventually explain it after the song and dance routine.
Next we will learn the great "treasure" that has been lost for 17 years - that the Word of Wierwille is the will of God.
May I bring to rememberance a thread started by RG a while back entitled Can you believe what someone recently told me?
In that thread RG opened with the following:
Well is seems a though that "someone" is here now - Mike
I have got to think that old Doc Vic, warts and all, might even be rolling in his grave right about now.
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on December 27, 2002 at 2:16.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
What kind of drugs are you taking?
Dr. give me a break. vp was no Dr. . Did you ever see the wissard of Oz?
In vp's last teaching in his big building in the woods he rails on and on about men and women dressing nice because this is holy ground. He takes more time reviewing dress code for his little church then the bible.
If there was one single event that moved me away from the Way Int. that was it. The straw was the popo paper.
Did I ever thank Chris? Hey thanks Chris I needed a push to give me a chance to redeem my life for the real world. You just helped move the old curtain so I could see all the wizzards behind them, including you.
Mike I'll pray for you. After all these years you are finding lost teachings. Maybe you should hook up with a guy here he goes by Oldies.
What was that line you had Gods insturction to us? I need a barf bag.
At the end of my life I hope I have more to show than stolen material and ideas that surely will no pass the test of fire.
[This message was edited by Danny on December 27, 2002 at 4:10.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Mike, I think the unanimity of the replies here reflects more on Wierwille than on the individual posters. Think about it.
Why is Wierwille shown such disrespect? Because, quite simply, he earned it by being a liar, serial sexual predator of the lowest kind, gross plaigarist and wearing powder blue tuxedos with ruffled shirts.
Try listening to folks whose character has earned them the right to speak to others: Try Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Billy Graham, Augustine, Tyndale. You may learn something.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Is anyone else having a serious case of deja vu? I mean, we've been here before. I am just SURE of it: someone came along and posted Wierwille's last teaching, citing the Living Victoriously comment where Wierwille says "if I knew this was the last time blah blah blah."
I am as concerned with Wierwille's last teaching as I am with Oswald Chambers', CS Lewis', etc. In other words, not at all.
It's the content of the message that counts, not the gravity placed on it by the messenger. Wierwille's last teaching has some kind of profound importance? Oh, for heaven's sake.
Hope you had a good night's sleep, Mike.
P.S. "The Joy of Service" was also a chapter in the book "Our Times," edited by Chris Geer and published in 1990.
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
OCD #1
That is probably the most insightful statement you've made yet! there is hope!
It must break your heart that VPee is not even mentioned by name at theway.org
maybe your compulsion to get the lost teaching out should be directed toward current followers! They've apparantly forgotten about "the teacher" altogether!
and now i'm a little more embarrassed about being involved with The Way (I didn't think that was possible)
I was really hoping it was new revelation regarding the two drink limit!
Sorry for the "graffiti" Mike, I just can't take this seriously....really!
again, good luck with the project, it should keep you busy for a while here
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Mike -
PFAL needs to be mastered? PFAL?
How about the Word of God?
And please don't try to tell me that PFAL = The Word of God. It ain't so.
First off, much of it was plagiarized from outside sources - and there have been many discussions about that, and evidence shown.
Second, much of it is just plain wrong. The law of believing, for example. Believing = receiving. That's not a law, that's a magic formula. Sure, there is principle behind that statement, but the material that docvic uses to exemplify that statement is rubbish. And that's just one example.
Who "authored" PFAL? Docvic. So naturally he would promote it. Naturally he would indicate that it was the most important thing in the world, exalting it even above the Bible.
Sorry, Mike, if you are looking for the PFAL/Docvic fan club, it ain't here. Try CFF, or Rearend Geer's outfit, or one of the many other sphincter, er, splinter groups.
Anyway, I didn't and don't intend this post as a personal attack, and forgive me if you take it that way. I respect the amount of effort you have put into your posts here, and commend you on your heart of service.
Regards,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Al Poole
Gosh... where's Rod Sterling ??????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Radar OReilly
This is creepy, only goes to show that Chris Geer and his novel POP were only the first in a long line of "speeches from the dead" attributed to VP Wierwille.
For God's sake, let vpw be dead, and those of us still living, live without the constant ghosts!
Radar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I guess by now I’ve done enough explaining (on another thread) as to why I choose to turn a deaf ear to certain topics. I can do more explaining, later, if I believe someone wants to listen to more detail. My decision to ignore these certain is quite deliberate, and I did it only after considering, for a large number of years, the same types of things that GS discusses. I’m not trying to pull any rank, it’s just an accident of history that I had to deal with all this ten years before all you did. In addition, I have had the opportunity, more than most, to review not only all the usual GS info, but I’ve also had the opportunity to ponder in great detail the positive side, the tape/print record of Dr’s. I have no wife nor children, and my job usually allows me tons of free time.
After weighing more data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you, I feel confident in rejecting your unanimity on all these negative subjects regarding VPW. This is not a glassy eyed hero worshiper type of a decision. It’s a decision that I knew was very unpopular and that I’d loose friends over. I even lost a wife over it. How many of you stand up to disapproval like this? How many of you really stood up to the abuses as you saw your fellow believers getting trounced by the Corps Gestapo? Or did you wait until you, yourself were a victim before you got angry? Did you speak up before they kicked you out, or did you only speak up at a time and place where you were safe, like far from of TWI and in the approving arms of GSers?
I was a very lone and lonely voice against the problems in the ministry and I learned to ignore the disapproval of corrupt minded leadership. Well corrupt minded leadership rises up in any and every human organization, so if you don’t start learning to go against the stream here in GS, then you’ll get bit in the butt again.
So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on, but these are the items that most GSers seem to get hung up on. With that said, I’m going to continue making the data available to those who want it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Dr's Last/Lost Teaching was quite interesting when it was first shown to me five years ago. For me, this was a great personal discovery. A real eye opener! I didn't discover it, it came to me. This reminds me of how we were often taught to think "I didn't really find God, He found ME."
As the years went by I continued to see more, especially as I studied certain items in the record Dr left us: tapes, magazine articles, and books. The implications of Dr's last teaching are voluminous, and to just give you a taste of what I'm talking about, I'm including below an essay that evolved from e-mailings with friends about this teaching. Several more letter/essays have developed in these recent years after I "discovered" the teaching, and I'd be happy to share them with you also, if you so desire.
So many people wonder what the heck happened to our wonderful ministry, me included. This is my feeble attempt to describe what I've found out so far. If you have better information, then I'm all ears. I've attempted to find out about our family of believers:
(1) what went right originally,
(2) what went wrong years ago, and
(3) what we can do about it right now.
This particular letter/essay below is about "The Joy of Serving" and some of its implications. I don't claim to have the entire story, nor can I say all the details are perfect. I had to guess in places. It's the implications that are more solid for me, and are much more positive. I'm open to any feedback or correction on these historical details.
This letter is on the second topic: (2)"what went wrong," so it's touches on a few negatives, but I try to do it in a constructive way, and it also leads into the other topics that are quite positive.
*************************************************
Dear Oscar,
It's very exciting to discuss with you the relatively recent discovery of Dr. Wierwille's Last/Lost Teaching. The reason I call it "lost" is because 90 to 95 percent of all PFAL grads never saw it, and the remainder never REALLY carried it out, including me. I've conducted a poll around the country for several years now, and most grads think Dr's last teaching was "The Hope." This was, indeed, his last teaching at Way Headquarters in New Knoxville, however, about two weeks later he gave his VERY last public teaching in Scotland, titled "The Joy of Serving."
Now here's where the story gets murky, and I'm still trying to find out exactly what happened next. I've asked many of our former leaders around the country for details, but few have been cooperative. So far what I know is that the tape of Dr's last teaching was somewhat ignored, possibly for a year or more. A short clip of it appeared on the Corps tape sent out two days after Dr's death. The whole tape was eventually played for the clergy by Chris Geer, but I think it was a year later, during the turmoil of 1986.
Somewhere around 1986, some circles of Corps people lightly distributed the tape around, and it was listened to by some, even repeatedly, for a short time. However, in my efforts to investigate all this 12 years later, I found not one report of any organized efforts to execute Dr's mastery instructions by anyone at all. I found several people who thought they themselves had already mastered PFAL, and so they argued the teaching didn't apply to them. Few leaders paid it proper regard, and even fewer relayed to the body of believers it's contents, and STILL EVEN FEWER actually carried it out...really none at all.
It's plain to see that TWICE we are instructed to master certain things: the foundational and intermediate classes and the class collateral books. Interestingly enough he did NOT say to master any translation or version of the Bible, nor the Advanced Class, nor any Corps training.
Now what does "master" mean? That's a big subject. In another letter I'll tell you how we have searched the books and magazines to see how Dr used that word in other settings. That gets pretty exciting. But for now let's focus on a different aspect of this question. Did Dr tell us in his final instructions to master the words he SPOKE the tapes of the class?
This is easy to answer. At the time Dr did his last teaching, the two classes Dr mentioned we must master were not generally available in tape form. The tapes were highly secured, they all had serial numbers on them, and HQ kept track of where all of them were. I worked in Tape Duplicating for two years, so I know this first hand. Those tapes were highly restricted to only trusted leadership, and few ever dared to make a bootleg copy for themselves. If they ever did, they kept it a tight secret.
No, Dr was not telling us to master the tapes. Mastering the Foundational and Intermediate Classes means working the syllabus materials that were available. Dr explicitly stated this in the prior year on the Sound Out'84 tapes. Thus the focus of our mastery was to be on the written materials in our possession. The books and magazines we received as grads then are the main component of Dr's instructions, and should be the focus of our mastery efforts.
These are Dr. Wierwille's dying last words TO ALL OF US, especially to leaders who mistakenly THOUGHT they had already mastered these materials by 1985. In addition to their significance of being his LAST words, he also said these things TWICE. Evidently a PARTIAL mastery (as many top leaders seemed to have accomplished) was not enough. It was also very important that we graduate in our mastery to a spiritual understanding of these written materials from the class. Spiritual, versus a 5-senses, natural understanding was often mentioned by Dr as our destiny. Look at page 14 of Vol.IV "God's Magnified Word."
This kind of mastered knowledge is crucial to us, and Dr knew it so he saved this message to be his last. The adversary knew it too, and in the years since Dr's death the adversary was very successful in downplaying the importance of Dr's final instructions in most leaders' minds, so today it remains almost totally lost.
In the Living Victoriously class, in the first teaching, seventeen minutes into it Dr. teaches very clearly that if he knew that he had one last chance to teach us, he would want to be SURE to teach the MOST IMPORTANT thing he could: master PFAL.
Anyway, the story continues....
In the Sept/Oct 1986 issue of the Way Magazine this precious set of final instructions from our father in the Word to all of us was finally released to non-leadership. But get this: it was a full sixteen months late, AND it was printed right after Chris Geer dropped the bomb at Corps Week and the disastrous Rock '86, so everyone's head was spinning. The big question then was "Who's the boss? Craig or Chris?" and, sadly, the RECORDED, PUBLIC last will and testament of Dr. Wierwille's was overlooked in favor of the supposed, secret last words of Dr to Chris. The fact that these reported private instructions contradicted Dr's public instructions went unnoticed.
I now fully believe that the accusations leveled at Craig, Howard, and Don by Chris regarding their not taking Dr's teachings seriously are equally pertinent to us all, including Mr Geer! I'm sure that if we all had spiritually heard Dr's final instructions immediately after his death, and had REALLY obeyed them, then the ministry wouldn't have died. But we didn't, and it did.
Mastery of Dr's writings is the same as mastering the KJV Bible, with the end goal being the application in love. And the many of the techniques are the same, for instance: knowing where chapters are, frequent and repeated reading, being able to find things quickly in the books, memorizing passages, and even word studies. God taught Dr to precisely handle words just like He taught the Biblical writers. God's teaching to Dr, and then Dr's teaching to us was the best since the first century. Do you know anyone else who heard an audible promise from God to get taught directly by God? (maybe you do, but what do they have to show for it compared to Dr&pfal) These PFAL materials are the final end product of that 1942 promise, and these materials are WORTH mastering.
The above techniques are five senses methods God expects us to utilize. For the spiritual understanding we were taught that revelation begins where the five senses leave off. From the "16 Keys To Walking In The Spirit" in the Advanced Class we were taught that "What you can know by the fives senses, God expects you to know." After we know what we can naturally, then God can teach us the spiritual point of view, and the arena for accomplishing all this is in that set of materials Dr identified in his most important final words addressed to us all. It is with the collaterals books that we need to spend a lot of time.
We all have been either living in ignorance of, or in disobedience to Dr's final instructions for many years now, and the consequences are very apparent. What we have now is not even close to the quality and quantity of love and cooperation we once enjoyed. How many people have we been unable to help these last fourteen years? How many people have we lost? How much of what Dr. taught us has slipped out of our own heads? Is there anyone who is still serious about raising the dead? I'm tired of winging it, spiritually, and I've made my decision. I've returned to a state of ultimate meekness toward Dr, the class, and the collaterals. It worked once before, because this is what God set up.
For years I erroneously thought I had "mastered" those books when I had finished transferring the corrections to the KJV text in my wide margin Bible, and when I could comfortably teach a chapter (or ten) in a fellowship. In this letter above I mentioned several techniques of mastery I had never before dreamed of applying.
When I returned to a serious study of Dr's books I found out very quickly that I had never come even close to REALLY mastering them. This has been very humbling, but also very delightful. We are sitting on a diamond mine, just ready to be tapped.
I pray that you sound out this good news, and return with us to the best God-taught, God-inspired teaching of God's Word since the first century. I do crave to see us unified again on PFAL. It was a great blessing from God, and there's no justifiable reason to do anything else but go back and master what God gave us.
Agape,
Mike
P.S. We found two places where Dr. "hinted" that doing
word studies in his books are valid, and even recommended:
Way Magazine, May/June '79 page 22, middle column,
second paragraph: "when you read anything"
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" page 223, the
terms "paragraph and section" are rarely applied
to the Bible, but do pertain to Dr's books.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Oh, how wonderful, a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
Please, seek help.
You've lost friends and a spouse over this? Would you go so far as to lose a job over this? Life is just too damned short.
What do you think it will get you? Is it going to deliver anyone? Will it get anyone born again? Will it magnify God?
Remember that line, "nobody cares how much you know unless they know how much you care"?
All you've done so far is to exalt yourself. Do you think that that is in line with scripture?
All hail the Great Apostle Mike!
[This message was edited by Steve! on December 27, 2002 at 8:30.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
RottieGrrrl
Mike: I don't doubt your sincerity, heart, or intelligence. The Way attracted many fine people.
However it disturbs me that you want to base "the truth" on a dead man's doctrine.
The head of the church is Jesus! Not Wierwille's doctrine!
The Way did attract me with common sense answers to disturbing questions. Many of the people were simply wonderful. But that damned class got in the way of everything! EVERYTHING! I hate that class! I HATE it.
I'm truly sorry if I offend you with that. But please, we need to learn from our mistakes. Not redo the whole thing and think things will turn out differently this time.
This is the trap most of the offshoots have fallen into. Which is why they are dead and lifeless.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
And I reject your conclusion right back.
Um, yes it is.Sorry to hear that. I honestly would not lose a friend over his opinion of VPW. I would lose a friend who continually insisted that I was ignorant, or lacking in relevant information, who nonetheless declined to provide the information he believes would lead me to the same conclusion.
Don't patronize us. I'm standing up to it right now, from you.
You mean, how many of us told our former branch leader to his face that he was full of it and that we were going to follow God and not men, not even TWI? How many of us looked "our" new branch leader in the eye and told him that TWI was abandoning the very principles on which it claimed to be founded? You know, coming on a message board and saying "I like VPW" isn't exactly my idea of courage. Big WHOOP.
Mike, I appreciate your blunt honesty, but your comment above... well, it doesn't apply to me, so I'll shut up. But if you want a nickel's worth of free advice, it was a cheap shot.
Sometimes, sometimes, the stream is taking you in the right direction. So listen, what you need to keep in mind is: what is your goal, and how are you going to get there? If that means going against the stream, then go. If it means going with the stream, then go. But if going against the stream means agreeing with you, then I'm dropping my oars in the water right now.
Those are the issues that most clearly demonstrate the flawed character of VPW. Like I said in the other thread, if you dismiss those issues in order to evaluate the doctrine, then I'm totally with you. But if you're going to dismiss those issues in order to continue exalting VPW as some uniquely qualified man of God, then I'm not with you. And it's obvious that you're doing the latter.
BRING IT ON!!!!
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on December 27, 2002 at 8:42.]
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
QamiQazi
duplicate
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
QamiQazi
Mike, this would be a profound teaching, if The Way mythology were true. Live by the Word, love by the Word, "first master then serve." Had The Way been built upon the Rock, and had the myth been reality, this teaching would have been the lodestone for the next seven generations.
The myth of his calling, the myth of his ministry, the myth of his class, the myth of his destiny, were, and are, lies. They were concocted, manufactured, packaged and propagandized across The Way Ministry, which itself was, and still is, a little splinter group.
See Mike, whenever Dr. Wierwille taught about service to the believers, it was a kind of code. What he meant, and more importantly, what he expected and got, was service to him. How else do you account for the legions of servants, the court full of courtiers, the gifts and honors and protocols, the erections of monuments, the seasons of heraldry and pageantry of, by, and for a ministry of **supposedly** Christ-centered bible-philes. They were done for a reason, Mike. It was to manufacture a mythology. It worked! Whaddya know! People go for that crap. Look at the Americans fawning over British royalty to this day. We're born suckers Mike. Smell the coffee. You've wasted far too much time already. Don't waste another minute.
Know this Mike. You are living the mythtery. The truth will make you free. Or mad, if you believe Huxley. Let's hope not. Free good, mad bad.
"You don't really live until you find something worth dying for." - Jesus
Edited by GuestLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
Part of your problem is how wordy you are. You probably wrote twenty paragraphs to explain why you are not yet talking about what you are going to talk about.
Also, you seem to be more arrogant than most of us around here. Your views may not be popular, but people are not going to take you seriously for saying things like,
"After weighing more data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you, I feel confident in rejecting your unanimity on all these negative subjects regarding VPW."
Also, with regards to your statements about how much you have suffered as a result of your opinion, I think it was your obsession on it that caused the problems.
Anyway, I wish my memory was better, because there was another person just like you on this site who I believe was ridiculed off of it recently. You'd do good to not follow in his footsteps. Just because you know some people around here doesn't mean everyone will like you. You seem to need help; your act like you have delusions of being the new MOG and act overdramatic about people disagreeing with you on the internet. I would suggest going out and getting a social life rather than obsessing with TWI nonsense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.