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I'm swamped at work but my heart had to come here for you......(((((rascal)))))

This is the hardest thing on us. Because we second guess everything and in my case I know I missed important things due to my inability to reach beyond my own prison walls.

My heart goes out to all of you which includes the ones that have lived through things and can't bring it out in words either to a close one or here in open. No assault on you was too little to be insignificant.

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I hesitate to minimalise what some of you as children have endure....by even saying this .... but I have always felt like the reason that I was vulnerable as a child to that pedophile....or as a teenager to any man who made me feel needed...and when I was introduced to the ministry that made me feel *important* all revolved around a lack of self worth generated as a child.

I would like to try to make sure that any child ever in my sphere of influence feels respected, knows that they are treasured and important beings.

(((((Rascal))))) Thanks so much for joining this discussion. You are one of the best mothers I've ever known and I really appreciate your input. I've been in your home and have seen you in action with your beloved kiddos. I'm tremendously proud of you and have great respect for your dedication.

I feel like quoting your entire post, but I left it at just the last two paragraphs. I don't see what you said as minimalising anyone's experience. I think it speaks to the real heart of the problem.

Sometimes I look at the children in my Annie's 4th grade class and I think I can see who gets the attention at home that it takes to make a child feel valued. It's been my experience too that the kids with that sense of self worth you and I didn't have as kids are the easier ones to victimize.

All my childhood my mom let me go with any adult that seemed willing to keep me for awhile. My mom was busy. She had 3 other kids - if one was gone that lightened her load. My mom often worked 2 jobs at a time, leaving us unsupervised. Unsupervised children might as well have targets right on their foreheads.

The first molestation episode I recall I was spending a week at one of my mom's married friend's homes - and I had a windbreaker jacket on. One end of the string to tie it shut at my waist wasn't hanging out of it's place so I couldn't secure my jacket. This slimy old creep insisted that he could get it for me in less than a minute. Right there in front of this nice mom and dad, he fiddled about with that string end, actually placing his hand inside my panties during the process. Sure, he got the string into place for me, but it certainly hadn't been inside my panties.

I tried to tell my mom when I got home, but she wasn't up for hearing about it. Then and there I learned that I couldn't ever tell her. I never told her about anything else as long as she lived. I never trusted her again as long as she lived. When you can't trust your own mom, and don't even know your father, all you have hope of is other adults.

Maybe because it's so obvious it gets overlooked. Maybe I'm just too simple to get it. I believe if we supervise our children properly, it'll be a lot harder for them to get their jollies off OUR kids.

One of my favorite things to hear my kids say is that they know their mom respects them. What power they have knowing that. They know what they're worth to me and that makes them worth more to themselves. I try to always make time to hear what they want to tell me about. That way they're used to sharing their thoughts and activities with me, so it's natural to tell me even the hard stuff to say.

I'm curious to know your thoughts on how to deal with pedophiles, if you wouldn't mind.

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I've chickened out on posting what I've written on this thread sooooooooo many times. It's very scary.

For me...I learned too young that giving in gets along...speaking up gets trouble...bad trouble...dangerous trouble.

Kathy, rascal, bowtwi...all of you who are speaking up...you do it so well and so boldly! I can't hardly get a whole sentence out.

I think "why bother?". It costs sooooooo much to say anything. 'Damaged goods'. Yeah, I'm damaged. When it comes to sex, I barely function 'normally'. Either I go totally overboard or totally into abstinence. Sure it drives my husband insane. I don't care. He has been no saint to me sexually.

And protecting my daughter? I failed miserably. I let 'ministers' talk me into thinking I was crazy...talk me into believing that I had devil spirits whispering lies in my ears about 'the body of believers'. My husband echoing the 'advice'. So I shut up my inner voice in favor of 'thinking no evil'.

In this I am ashamed beyond comprehension.

I was able to protect my son, though. After turning in 'leadership' to the authorities, I felt so free that even the slightest hint of something untoward with my son and I was on the phone to the cops.

I have given into giving up any hope of ever having a normal life of my own, though.

How can I ever have normalcy? I've been having sex since I was 4yo. It's never been sex that I actually wanted...because I never thought about what did I want...just what did I have to do to get along.

Did I ever enjoy sex? I really don't know. The body is made to work a certain way. If the body responds and gets turned on, that could be called enjoyment I guess. For me, though, it's more like addiction.

But I've never had sex I didn't feel required to have...for one reason or another. I'm not talking rape...not talking forced...which was what happened from age 4 to age 12...and 3 times after that. I'm talking letting myself be used sexually because I could see no other choice if I were to get along in life.

Do I use sex to get what I want? I used to. All the time. But I thought marriage would cure that. It did. Now I give in to sex because I don't want to fight or pay some other way for not giving in. It's become either I give it up or somebody else will...or all hell will break lose if the urge is allowed to go unfulfilled for too long.

Sure everybody wants me to get out of such a situation. That'd be nice. But the problem here is in my head. I'd just repeat the behavior over and over again.

Because I don't know any other way. I've thought about becoming a nun. But would that really stop my behavior? I seriously doubt it.

Because my behavior stems from feeling as though the only thing I have to offer that anybody really wants is sex.

Gonna post this now because I'm beginning to chicken out.

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Thanks Kathy and Bow, like I said, I hesitated to post because my experience seemed pretty minor...enough so that it was dismissed and forgotten for a long time.

As far as pedophiles? They themselves have said that they can`t be rehabilitated. I think that our children need to be protected. I guess I think of offenders as *broken* inside ... anybody who puts their pleasure .... sexual or otherwise as more important than the suffering and damage they cause, IS in my opinion.

I think that since statistics show that most are not rehabilitatable, that our primary responsibility is to keep children safe...not just our children...but ALL kiddoes....I think that the pedophiles need to be locked away from society where they can not harm the kiddoes.

I don`t care if you want to medicate them or councel them or try to help them...I don`t even necessarily bear them any malice....or want them punished I just don`t want them to have access to the kids.

It seems to me that most pedophiles escalate in the behavior through the years .... I am thinking of some of the court cases on tv.

That being said.....since this is not the case.....and most sexual offenders are not imprisoned for long it seems.

The parents are going to HAVE to be responsible for monitoring and supervising the kiddoes activites 24/7. It is a shame that the kids cannot ride their bikes or play at the friends house or walk to the store for a soda...I don`t even leave my kids for theatre rehearsals or karate unless another parent that I trust is staying with their kiddo.... but that is the price that we have pay for trying to give the offenders fair treatment in this society.

Damn (((CW))) I am glad that you didn`t chicken out.

Chatty Kathy, maybe you are reaching beyond those prison walls you spoke of now in order to help folks in a significant manner.

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I think "why bother?". It costs sooooooo much to say anything. 'Damaged goods'. Yeah, I'm damaged.

Because my behavior stems from feeling as though the only thing I have to offer that anybody really wants is sex.

My gawd dear girl there were parts of your post that made me go back to verify it wasn't I that posted it.

(((((coolwaters)))))

Also to all of you reading I wanted to say I do have something to be thankful for in my abuse. Even though having it be only one man from 4-9 helped set me up for future adult entrapment I still would have rather it been one man than more than one abuser like some of you had. That just horrifies me. I hurt so badly for you in that regard, my gawd!

Chatty Kathy, maybe you are reaching beyond those prison walls you spoke of now in order to help folks in a significant manner.

Thank you dear one.

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(((((Cool))))) Man oh man, can I ever relate to so much of what you said. I have no more free time this morning, but I know it had to be tough to share all that! I pray you find it helps you to let it out. It sure has helped me.

Of all the women I know that I speak so personally with, I have to say that more women have been molested at some point in their life than have not ever been molested at all. This is completely unacceptable.

I pray that by keeping this and other conversations like this going that we'll soon hit on a real, workable solution to this ever increasing danger. This damage just doesn't go away on its own.

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My gawd dear girl there were parts of your post that made me go back to verify it wasn't I that posted it.

(((((coolwaters)))))

(((((Cool))))) Man oh man, can I ever relate to so much of what you said. I have no more free time this morning, but I know it had to be tough to share all that! I pray you find it helps you to let it out. It sure has helped me.

OK...I'm breathing better now...can talk some more...

Yeah...many of us identify. Which is why I posted it...not to complain or draw attention to myself...but to talk about what it's done to me...to maybe help others understand themselves...and maybe help people who have never been in such situations to understand how permanent the damage is...and understand how people can and do get trapped in situations that seem to have an obvious 'cure'.

Of all the women I know that I speak so personally with, I have to say that more women have been molested at some point in their life than have not ever been molested at all. This is completely unacceptable.

And each one who is a mother brings that into her ability to be a mother.

If she hasn't overcome the petrifying guilt, shame and fear at least a little bit, then she is petrified as a mother...she can't help her children...she won't let anybody else close enough to help her or her children.

Gawd and the inner rage over it all!!!

But we don't know how to express that rage in a healthy manner. How could we? We were never allowed to even talk about what happened, much less allowed the luxury to be mad about it. How could we suddenly turn 18 and know how to express it in a healthy manner?

So we turn that rage on one another. Woman against woman.

And then the perps have the exact scenario they need to go on without fear of being stopped.

IMO.

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What if from your stories, another is thinking and wondering if he or she should finally get a secret out, tell a story that might answer questions left for years? What if you offer another the strength to see that they, too, can see themselves as a survivor?

:wave:

I have always avoided these conversations. I always told myself it was because I'm not a mom and how on earth could I even comprehend what a mother who has been through that must go through? My experiences are few and extremely mild compared to others - like Rascal said - enough so, in my mind, to have been pushed to the back burner and ignored many time and often shoved back down if it did try to surface.

I was raised in "Leave it to Beaver" land and I did have very loving, caring, protective parents. I doubt I could have asked for better parents - even though they weren't perfect, as none of us are - they did a darn good job considering what they had to work with.

One day while Mom and I were visiting one of her friends who had a son my age, the son and I went to play in this shed that was back in the woods. A neighborhood older boy came by and he molested me while the son went off playing elsewhere and eventually the boy went back home, but I was detained by this guy. The whole time I could hear my mom and the other mother calling for me in the neighborhood, but I couldn't leave because of this kid molesting me.

When I he got done, I was allowed to leave and my mother was so mad when I got there that she scolded me and we left immediately. She drove down to the bend in the road, got a switch at the entrance to the path where I had just been molested and beat the ever living crap out of me. How could I possibly tell her then what had happened and why I didn't come? I wasn't a disobedient child. I never got into trouble like that, but Mama was so *%^#*ed she couldn't think straight (She was only 22 or 23 years old at the time - just a kid herself, really). So I never told anyone about it - ever - ever - till right now. Mama still doesn't know.

I also had kids stick branches and sticks down my pants, among other horrible things done to me in daycare. The doctor told Mom he thought something was going on that wasn't right and they asked me about it, but I denied anything wrong was going on. To this day I only have vague recollections of those times and figure I must have blocked those times out almost completely. I don't really care to have them brought back to memory either - there must be some reason I can't remember any details of it.

Then when I was eleven my great uncle molested me while he and my great aunt were babysitting me. I told my mom the next day that I never wanted to be alone with him or with him and my aunt again. Mama nodded and said she would honor that. We never talked about what happened, but I've often wondered if he had tried things with her and so she knew what I was talking about without me saying it. That I've offhandedly told to a few people and always said that it was no big deal and that it didn't really affect me, but it did.

***********

How do we stop these things from happening in the first place? I have no idea. You don't know a molester is a molester until he does something and even then, the only one who knows is the victim. The victim doesn't usually speak out and it's usually someone the victim knows and trusts....

If, as a parent, you find out that your child was molested do you insist that they go get counselling and continue with that throughout the kid's life? I mean, how can you tell when the child is okay? Children are resilient, but those kinds of scars last forever. And then do you worry that your child might become a molester? What do you do to prevent that from happening? CAN you prevent that from happening? Is it horrible to think that, that could possibly be an outcome of what your child had to endure? How does a parent deal with that kind of situation knowing that a lot of molested kids become molestors?

I think there's no easy answer. What if I was the only person and that was the only time in my uncle's life he did something like that? If he was never abused and if he was never aberrant in any of his behavior the whole time leading up to that incident, how would anyone know to put a stop to him? How would we even know that there was a threat there? When I think about prevention, I think about those things.... I don't think you CAN know who the threats are and, God forbid, someone becomes a victim of "genuine spiritual suspicion" because someone knows they were molested and, therefore, MIGHT be a threat.

We have to protect our kids, parents have to provide the oversight, love, attention and self-esteem building blocks children need. They need to have open, honest communication with their kids and the kids need to know that they can talk to their parents about anything and that the parents will go to the ends of the earth to protect them. Given the gene pool we have to work with - I just don't think that's gonna happen for far too many kids, sadly. But we also can't put the burden on the government to raise children properly.

I don't know what the answers are - maybe that's another reason why I don't post on these threads. :) I said a lot for not saying anything, eh? Sorry for the huge long thread. If you made it this far, I owe you a huge door prize. Just let me know where to send it.

** edited to clarify a point **

Edited by Belle
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If, as a parent, you find out that your child was molested do you insist that they go get counselling and continue with that throughout the kid's life? I mean, how can you tell when the child is okay? Children are resilient, but those kinds of scars last forever. And then do you worry that your child might become a molester? What do you do to prevent that from happening? CAN you prevent that from happening? Is it horrible to think that, that could possibly be an outcome of what your child had to endure? How does a parent deal with that kind of situation knowing that a lot of molested kids become molestors?

The FIRST thing you do as a parent is believe the child. No matter how ones mind is screaming it can't be, it isn't, the kid is lying.

The LAST thing you do as a parent is freak out.

A parent can make a huge differance by believing their son/daughter who has mustered up the courage to tell. Listen patiently so that the child can get however much of the story they can get out. Don't ask a bunch of questions just then.

Call ones doctor and get the child in for an exam, even if it didn't just happen. This is for your own peace of mind, as well as for evidence later as needed.

But you might not be talking about the immediate stuff a parent does; rather the long term. If the child is believed by the one person they want to trust, feel they can trust the most, the parent, that will go a very very long way in the healing process.

Studies show that if a child who's molested grows to molest it's primarily because nothing was done about their own and the rage (differant than anger, rage is emotional) lives w/in them. Sometimes it's to punish, sometimes to finally get attention. The human mind is a strange place and it's really not designed to hold such horrors when we're children. It doesn't fit anywhere, no matter how the child tries to make it. Therefore it grows.

Studies also show, as do the stories we hear here that 'most' adult victims of childhood molestation don't go on to be offenders themselves, especially women. Girls seem to know bigger somehow that the act was very wrong, yet are not able to place it. Then in our society, as women demand and take more assertive behaviors, it's REALLY wrong and we know it.

Men, although we've not heard from any here, are more wired to act out the anger on future children, although I'm not clear on why from the material I've read. As I understand it a little, men will accept their fate, but not turn it into a refusal to repeat. Boys being the most who offend, as in Belle's story, often are being molested themselves as well. Girls don't want to share with a friend what's going on, but some boys do.

I wish more men would tell their stories and teach us, but one can understand why they don't. Women take that rage and turn it into additions to motherhood themselves. It seems to be some driving force as the nurturers we are, to protect our babies; the mama bear instinctual stuff.

Therapy is wonderful for kids who've been molested again because of the trust issues. Not only do mom and dad believe them but so does this other grown up and the doctor, the judge, everyone.

That can be the differance in the healing process. Little shatters a childs world more than no support, no belief, no love and kindness from the one or two grown ups that are supposed to take care of them.

We teach them, we remind them, and then if something happens we believe them, no matter how badly we want to run screaming from the room, no matter how many nights we lie awake with visions of this horror before our eyes, no matter how badly we wish it were just a mistake.

For those that add the reality that sometimes a kid lies, that's true too. But until it's proven that they lied and it will be proven, usually before it ever gets very far if a parent knows their child, believe them.

Edited by Shellon Fockler-North
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Dearest (((Belle))) Why wouldn`t your input be relevant and highly valued?

My heart breaks for the frightened little girl who didn`t dare tell.

My Mom asked me one time about someone seeing the nieghbor *hugging* me. I didn`t tell because I was terrified of my mothers anger.

Up untill that point I didnt` know that there was something wrong... I haven`t ever told my Mom either Belle.

I think that you are right about making darned sure that our kiddoes are comfortable talking to us about ANYTHING ...Which means no recriminations or anger when they come to us.

I had to caution spouse when the kiddoes were young and they had to pluck up the courage to tell him that they had broken something and needed help. It was so tough to tell him that they had broken the light yet again...and he of course would get angry....not physically mind you....but his voice and tone.

I had to ask him...HOW did he think that they were going to tell him when they were in REAL trouble as teens and young adults.....That if he continued being angry with them when they *messed up* over little stuff...they were going to try to hide and cover up when they were in big trouble, rather than going to him for help.

Thank God that he changed his behavior immediatly from theharsh way we had been taught to parent in twi.

Edited by rascal
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"If, as a parent, you find out that your child was molested do you insist that they go get counselling and continue with that throughout the kid's life? I mean, how can you tell when the child is okay? Children are resilient, but those kinds of scars last forever. And then do you worry that your child might become a molester? What do you do to prevent that from happening? CAN you prevent that from happening? Is it horrible to think that, that could possibly be an outcome of what your child had to endure? How does a parent deal with that kind of situation knowing that a lot of molested kids become molestors?"

Every parent, child, and situation is different, Belle. I can only speak to what I have done and probably would do.

1. My children are already aware of the fact that there are people out there who would hurt them.

2. My children are aware of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate touch.

3. My children know that I want them to be where they are supervised by an adult, either myself or someone I trust.

4. They know who to look for if they are ever lost or separated from the adult they are supposed to be with (a woman with children - safest bet).

5. They know to scream, hit kick, and bite (below the belt or in the eyes) if they have to defend themselves because they cannot run away (first line of defense is always run away).

and perhaps most important of all - they know they have the right to say NO to anyone who touches them in a way that makes them uncomfortable.

NOW - if it happened despite all of that

1. I would let my child know they did NOTHING wrong and have no need to feel ashamed - even if they thought it felt good.

2. I would share my childhood experiences so they know they are not alone.

3. Counseling would be continuing until myself, the child, and the counselor ALL felt it was no longer necessary.

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A few stats: and forgive me I've just cut and pasted from research I've gathered over time for my classes, so it's roughly presented.

The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the offence.

Source: National Institute of Mental Health, 1988.

About 60% of the male survivors sampled report at least one of their perpetrators to be female.

Source: Mendel, 1993.

About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.

Source: CCPCA, 1992.

It is estimated that approximately 71% of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at least casually. About 80% of these individuals fall within normal intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through, seduction or enticement.

Source: Burgess & Groth, 1984.

Further:

Skuse and his colleagues followed the lives of the 224 boys, who had been referred to a sexual abuse clinic between 1980 and 1992, through social services and criminal justice records. Most of the boys were white and their average age at the time of referral was 11. In 1999, the researchers searched national and local police records to look for evidence of any of the boys becoming abusers.

The researchers found that only 12 percent of 224 boys who had been sexually abused as children later became sexual abusers themselves. (This seems low to me, too, but these were the only ones that showed up in the system, the other 88% were not followed)

They also discovered that abusers shared similar risk factors growing up, such as abuse from a female or a history of cruelty to animals.

Twenty-six of the sexual abuse victims went on to become sexual abusers themselves, according to the study. Almost all of the abusers had victimized children. About half of these men abused females exclusively. Another quarter abused both males and females; the remaining quarter abused only males. Nearly two-thirds abused someone outside their own family.

The researchers say they were also able to identify some common risk factors for the abusers, including physical neglect and a history of cruelty to animals.

"Sexual abuse by a female was a specific risk for males who became abusers later in life," Skuse says. "And the witnessing of extreme and persistent violence at home -- usually the father or the male partner of their mother was the source of this violence -- [was also a risk factor]."

Dr. John Markey, a child and adolescent psychiatrist at Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Mich., says, "The number of individuals who were abused and became abusers is less than what we would expect. There's generally a fear that someone who has been abused is in a high-risk category to victimize someone later."

But, Dr. Kenneth Skodnek, chairman of the departments of psychiatry and psychology at Nassau University Medical Center in East Meadow, N.Y., believes the study may have missed a large number of abusers.

SOURCES: David Skuse, M.D., professor of behavioral and brain sciences, Institute for Child Health, London, England; John Markey, M.D., child and adolescent psychiatrist, Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, Mich.; Kenneth Skodnek, M.D., chairman, departments

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Actually, those are some rather outlandish statistics...and, yes, they probably are somewhat underreported.

Think about it: those 26 boys that turned into abusers, had they not been involved with that study, would have abused an average of 117 children each -- resulting in 3,042 abused children at their hands.

If 11.6% (the statistic your study used) turned into abusers themselves, that would result in a new generation of 353 abusers. If they abused an average of 117 children, that would result in 41,301 children abused by generation 2.

If 11.6% of those turned into abusers, that would be 4,793 new abusers for generation 3. Resulting in 560,882 new victims ... generating 65,102 new abusers for generation 4...and so on and so forth.

And, as your study notes: the majority of cases are never reported...

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As a psych student, reading the stuff I read, talking to the people I do, hearing the stories I do, I am easily freaked out where my babies are concerned.

However I learned the hard way that each child is unique in how they can be told and what they can handle at differant ages.

My eldest, now 24, is one of those people, since about age 4ish, that we could tell things straight to and not be worried about how it might be received, not scaring her but preparing her. She's the kid that would kick another kids (or an adult) butt and absolutely tell if something happened. No problem with her reception of the information and what to do if.

My youngest on the other hand is quieter, more of a thinker; she needs to assimilate what she receives and work it over and over then come back with more questions, then take those answers, so on and on.

I took the same approach with her and it caused more problems than I'd ever have anticipated.

I scared the crap outa the kid. She was laying in her bed each night planning that nights "escape" in case something happened, she was afraid of being alone with anyone, she was scared of everyone, every noise was someone about to do her harm. I didn't see this, missed it every freakin where, until she began to have problems with another child at school.

The school counselor told me about how frightened she was, about her nightly plans, etc. And my child was instructed by counselor to give it back to me. She did and I started over. Great learning about how no two kids are the same and my approach and presentation to each needed to be differant.

I still tell them both the same information and always straight, but I have to remember that my youngest needs more time to digest.

Each child is unique in his/her abuse as well. I think the bottom line is that they were hurt, that's all there is and we have to move heaven and hell to try to make it right again as much as is possible, but again, I think if I went at my youngest's disclosure with both barrels in the event that happened, she'd shut up and back off. Same scene with my oldest and she'd be right in there fighting with me.

When we know our children and know our jobs as parents, we also know what works with them. We have to tell them the dangers; we have to. We have to empower them, give them some control and ability to know what to do, know that we believe them, that we're there, no matter what.

Edited by Shellon Fockler-North
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One other thing too: your statistic (the one I requested) only talked about the percentage of abusers who were abused themselves.

I wonder what the percentage would be of those who have some other sexual or social issues that plague them throughout their adult lives (and could result in a major impact on children they raise)?

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And to get an even better picture of what is going on in the world today and why it really cannot be stopped...

How many generations has mankind been around? Multiply that out with the statistics provided and the formula used.

There's no stopping it. There's only protection of our children if we can.

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And, as your study notes: the majority of cases are never reported...

If all of the cases were reported, I am sure we'd find the numbers staggering beyond what our minds could fathom.

Yup, those, 88 was it?, kids who didn't end up in the system in other ways weren't followed.

There are many many studies out there with differant stats according to what the research group is looking for.

These numbers are just of one study.

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What is it about sex? About having our bodies taken against our wills? Does that gender certain breakdowns do we know? I for one can assure you I've been one screwed up person at times. And even now work hard every single day to be somewhat normal.

I can't read you all, I'm just maxed today but my heart is here I assure you.

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"What is it about sex? About having our bodies taken against our wills? Does that gender certain breakdowns do we know? I for one can assure you I've been one screwed up person at times. And even now work hard every single day to be somewhat normal. "

Kathy, as we have discussed, the body is designed to respond to certain stiumlation. What greater betrayal is there, than to have your own body respond sexually against your will?

Yes, I think that does gender certain breakdowns.

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Last year while sipping whiskey (not a good idea)and watching a movie I came across a somewhat repressed memory from my childhood. Memories of a sexual incident but mostly of shame and humiliation. It involved the nuns from Nativity School and 6 yrs of physical and emotional abuse. Now these memories weren't totally repressed, I had taken them out a bit at a time and examined them over the years but that night they came out altogether in a rush of anguish and pain. When that happened I felt an incredable amount of rage towards the perps and had they been in my living room I could, in that rage, quite easily have killed them with little or no regrets.

What made my circumstance so unusual was that the originating event was known, not only to my parents (who confronted the nun) but also to the other parents whose children attended the school and THEY did NOTHING. I think realising that (as an adult) made my anger/rage that much more intense as I felt (as that small child), abandoned and foresaken by those entrusted to my care and safekeeping.

Since I had used alcohol to self medicate before I knew I needed to stop so I started going back to AA for support and brought up my experiences with some trusted friends there. What I learned was many, many people in recovery (and not) had similar experiences, that we were the walking wounded and we self medicated to forget those experiences.

I called the SF Archdiocise and spoke to their abuse liasion about my experience. She wrote me a long letter acknowledging and apologizing for what happened and repeatedly reminded me it was not my fault. When I read that (and I had to read it several times before it sunk in), I felt the greatest release from the chains of my past. I realised the shame and the disgrace belonged on the nuns and the church for allowing that to happen and not on me.

I am grateful to you ladies for baring your souls it's silence that permits these things to continue

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Chas, I wrote three brief posts on the topic.

Rather than summarize what was sufficiently clear, I'll ask you some questions.

Did I say anything about active pedophiles being told to "go and sin no more?" Anything about letting them off? [Did I say you did?]

Did I say anything about consequences, punishment, retribution? [Yes, in your first post - you referred to it -i.e. the remark about Sudo.]

Did I say anything about "potential" (mostly undetected, innocent of any wrong-doing) pedophiles who may need serious help and support but are terrified of the likely consequences of being discovered? [You referred to a program where they could turn themselves in - one problem - the crime would still have to be committed first.]

Try to understand what I mean by "redemption" in this context. It doesn't mean a free pass. It means a chance for troubled individuals to redeem their future, before they do any harm. [Please don't talk down to me - I have been very respectful of you. You, as usual, have not reciprocated.]

It means the willing submission to strict guidelines, accountability, responsibility, and enforcement. In my mind it would require DNA testing and fingerprinting, possibly wearing an electronic ankle bracelet, letting authorities know where they are , regular visits with specialized couselors and physicians employed by law enforcement. It might mean voluntary medication or sterilization.

They would be in a program similar to one for paroled sex-offenders, but without the offense, and without the public record. Their compliance would make them far easier to catch if they ever did commit a crime, and therefore less likely they ever would.

Actual offenders who turned themselves in would be guaranteed not to receive the death penalty, and guaranteed not to be placed in general population where they would probably be killed. Whatever incentives they are given to surrender would have to be balanced with the necessity of punishement. Think of it as a kind of plea bargain. It gets them off the street.

The other side of the "safe harbor" offer is this - that punishment for anyone who rejects the program is that much more severe. I no longer believe the death penalty is a viable option in this country. I also believe a lifetime in prison, deprived of freedom and comfort, is a better punishment than our bizarre execution rituals, where the prisoner must not feel the least bit of pain but go softly to sleep.

The problem with prison is that it's too comfortable for a lot of them. I would change that too. Bring back chain gangs, maybe. Let's see the really bad ones petitioning the governor for the right to be executed - because they hate prison. When that day comes, we're back on the right track.

I understood your post, and previous posts, just fine. You didn't have to post this schmutz thinking I didn't get it. I do. I have tried to communicate that in an honest, respectful way, that I disagreed and think your logic is flawed about some of this. You obviously can't return the favor of being gracious - or even polite. I guess I had forgotten that no one is allowed to disagree with you. So sorry.

I know what redemption is - believe it or not - but at the prison level, it generally means they are rehabilitated enough to be deemed able to function in society. It's an arguement used quite often for people who are on death row to gain them a pardon. It has already been proven that programs like this do not stop the crimes or even lessen them from happening - if they did, then there would not be an increase in the percentage of sexual offenders each year in this country.

Making prison less comfortable is a start, but quite frankly, I'm sickened at the stories of repeat offenders being set free and then arrested again for the same problem - punishment isn't severe enough, and sorry, but I do believe in the death penality on this one... I don't wish to get in a discussion with you about that on this thread - I don't think it would be appropriate.

In short, Satori, I think you are grossly underestimating what these perpertrators can do - or you place a lot of faith in governmental systems. Like Chatty says, "What about the uncle or grandfather that no one can turn in?" I haven't seen anyone argue that point, yet.

Peace.

================================

This issue is a bigger problem than this country is willing to face, yet it seems that everyone knows someone close to them who has experienced it. As a parent, it's something that I pray my boys will never have to deal with directly, but I already believe there is a friend in my oldest son's life who has - he's only 3-and-a-half and is in Kristopher's pre-school class. He exhibits some behavior that just isn't right - he knows words for things - and had done things that really creeped me out. Needless to say, Kristopher won't ever go over to his house - but personally, I'd take the little guy in a heartbeat. He's a sweet, bright boy. But already, we know a child who has been scarred already. Sick.

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"What is it about sex? About having our bodies taken against our wills? Does that gender certain breakdowns do we know? I for one can assure you I've been one screwed up person at times. And even now work hard every single day to be somewhat normal. "

Kathy, as we have discussed, the body is designed to respond to certain stiumlation. What greater betrayal is there, than to have your own body respond sexually against your will?

Yes, I think that does gender certain breakdowns.

Abi, that one took me to the point of tasting metal before I recovered myself. I hated me far more than him because of it. It remains to be one of the hardest things I hold. And I'm working my butt off to not hold anything which I reckon is obvious.

What greater betrayal indeed when our own body responds sexually against our will. When you would think the horror of the whole thing would be sufficient to cease and destroy any such inner workings. My gawd this one nearly killed me.

(I may not be able to finish reading from this morning were I left off but I do want to read every one here, just from very fast look it appears to have been quite a day here)

Edited by ChattyKathy
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