I know there are people who are hurting and who are flexing their "free to speak up" muscles. I get that.
But sometimes discrection is the better part of valor, isn't it? "Wait and see" is often a better response than a knee-jerk reaction.
Isn't it better to give people the benefit of the doubt? If we're being "too easy" on them, they'll reveal their own warts soon enough. If not, maybe we'll all benefit from something they'll say down the road if they're not run off in a cloud of suspicion and accusation. Who wants a "welcome" like that?
I agree that censorship isn't the answer. Nor do I think the moderators should be called upon to intervene every time someone thinks another poster is annoying. But that's a whole 'nother topic, I guess.
"In a thread recently, a woman spoke openly about an affair with LCM. She made some observations that, I felt, were honest, not GSPC but honest.
What followed was a vile bashing of her and her opinions. Was she not entitled to her opinion?"
Paw, I know the thread you speak of, and I must say - given the way the woman in question told her story and the way she worded her opinion, it did very much appear as if she were the one casting stones at some who were victims. I am sorry, I understand that she did try to clear up her intent and I think that is great. Likewise, I am more than willing to recognize and understand that sometimes what we think we are saying and what we are actually saying are not one and the same. In other words, we sometimes word things poorly. Additionally, the problem is compounded by the lack of facial expressions and tone of voice. However, I reread the original post several times and it was (imho) worded poorly, leaving the wrong impression.
And yes, she is entitled to their opinion, but is everyone else not likewise entitled to express theirs? And again, I agree that we should exercise some self-control and self-moderating - but sometimes our buttons get pushed and we push back - that is part of being human.
Likewise, while some of the responses may have been harsh - so were the implications of her opinion as stated in that original post, even if they weren't intended.
" have had numerous emails telling me to be careful of two posters that "know" LCM. They will most likely NEVER post here again."
I do not have any idea who the two posters are whom you are referring to here Paw. But it does seem to me (and I think I am rather thick skinned most of the time) that we have had a few posters of late who's only goal and intent is to harrass and cause pain. One poster even acknowledged as much in the chatroom one night. The other poster seems to be quazi stalking another poster from thread to thread with no intention other than to harass - I say that because he does not seem to add to the coversation in any form beyond that of insults directed at one person in particular. Although, he seems to be more than happy to take pot shots at other posters as well, again without adding anything to the conversation.
"I am not going to threaten any censorship. I am not going to threaten to close forums down. I AM going to ask that you NOT become the people from whence we came."
I am glad you aren't going to threaten any censorship, nor close the forums. But I would be curious as to what it is you suggest we do when faced with a poster who's only intent seems to be to antagonize the hell out of everyone else. Yes, I know we can ignore - but to me that too seems like doing what we had to do in TWI. Close our mouths and take it. I guess I think there is value in standing up to some of these people and calling a spade a spade.
Just my thoughts, for what they are worth. I understand that figuring out how to deal with all of us Ex-Wayfers is quite a handful - I don't blame you for getting frustrated and even ....ed off. I just think that what you are seeing pretty much "goes with the territory". I am sorry there are people who won't post here, or do and then get "run off". But if the alternative is to sit back and take the insults silently, or to be censored - - well, I think there are already websites for ex-wayfers that are more than happy to censor anything that might stir up some emotions, and there is a reason why I don't go to those sites.
It's happened before, but using someone's post to make them the target of an inquisition has mostly been out of bounds, here and at Waydale, and it has nothing to do with censorship.
Good people on average just don't do the role of Grand Inquisitor very well, so when a wild hair gets the better of them, this is what happens.
Sogwap's story was not so unusual. It has nothing to do with sex, adultery or promiscuity. It has to do with a not-so-unique believer's vulnerability, and the need to be loved and accepted and validated, and with finding the illusion of those things in the false fulfillment of Wierwille's promises, promises he read to her (and us) from the bible.
I've only read part of that thread, but the inquisitors need to find a better target for their indignation. She's not the enemy.
In a thread recently, a woman spoke openly about an affair with LCM. She made some observations that, I felt, were honest, not GSPC but honest.
What followed was a vile bashing of her and her opinions. Was she not entitled to her opinion? Or have we gotten to the point that we throw stones and ask questions later or never? Now I know that GS is a tough crowd, but My God. And to add to the disgust of the whole thing, people that I have protected in the past were in the front row throwing stones!
Not to put too fine a point on it, you have to be a woman to understand exactly why what was posted ruffled so many feathers. Most of the vitriol came from my side of the gender divide. The anger had NOTHING TO DO with the act itself, but what was suggested as to the motivation of, not only the poster, but other women in a similar position.What was suggested, from a female perspective, is that we are all whores who traded sex for favors, thereby relegating us all to the "bad girl" category. The kind of women, in short, that no man will ever take home to meet his mother. It was a calculated and vicious insult, and any woman would know that full well even as she was typing.
Should the rest of us been "bigger" women and not responded in kind or better yet, not even risen to the bait in the first place?? definitely. That said I for one will try to do better.
I trust and respect you, and will play by the rules you require,
but I reserve the right to disagree on a case-by-case basis with you.
In a thread recently, a woman spoke openly about an affair with LCM. She made some observations that, I felt, were honest, not GSPC but honest.
When she spoke on her own experience, she spoke for herself.
That was not made an issue.
When she took HER experience, and extrapolated from it, she expressed an opinion.
Had she applied it to SOME people, she almost certainly would have
gotten a caveat, that is "of course there are lots of people this did NOT
apply to, and this should not be used to claim it was true of all people by
anyone seeking to tar VICTIMS-whom this does NOT apply to."
However, she made no attempt to limit the scope of her claim-
which means she was saying
"this was true for me, and is true for everyone".
When she said "it was true for me", that limits the room for disagreement.
As soon as someone applies a rule to EVERYONE, that's tantamount to inviting
disagreement.
Watch the difference between these 2 statements.
"I didn't vote for him. I know he's a crook."
and
"I didn't vote for him. Everybody who didn't vote for him knows he's a crook."
How about
"I work full-time. I feel the taxes on big business should cover all the government's
expenses so that citizens should not have to pay tax."
and
"I work fill-time. Everyone who works full-time feels that taxes on big business
should cover all the government's expenses so that citizens should not have to
pay tax."
In both cases, I'd expect the exceptions to begin replying immediately.
The reason I usually don't get this complaint about MYSELF is that I try to avoid
"all-encompassing" words and expressions, by suggestion, implication or direct
statement. There will almost ALWAYS be exceptions to ANY generalization.
I also often reread before I hit the "Add Reply" button.
Some people would be surprised how much that one step would improve
one's posts.
What followed was a vile bashing of her and her opinions. Was she not entitled to her opinion? Or have we gotten to the point that we throw stones and ask questions later or never? Now I know that GS is a tough crowd, but My God. And to add to the disgust of the whole thing, people that I have protected in the past were in the front row throwing stones!
This was an exception case. The attitude is "protect the victims."
Always was in the GSC (in my experience, since after ezboard, anyway),
and remains so today, for the usual suspects.
Why did they all react?
This post went at cross-purposes to that, and suggested that the VICTIMS
were not VICTIMS, but willing participants in ALL CASES.
Why be surprised that was challenged?
Frankly, I didn't join in because it was already said.
=============
I have had numerous emails telling me to be careful of two posters that "know" LCM. They will most likely NEVER post here again. I certainly wouldn't with the kind of treatment they were given. I checked both of them out and there were NO signs that they weren't who they said they were. Heck I even found out the favorite band of one of them.
Entirely different situation.
I saw no reason to react the way some people did.
I didn't join in on that one because I saw no reason to
agree or prolong the digression.
I wouldn't blame them for not returning, but I don't see the reason
for running them off, either. The people I'd recommend running off
go after posters in an antagonistic fashion, and neither of those
posters did anything of the kind. Nor did they even warrant any
sort of warning or caution.
Watch their posts? Sure. Watch mine while you're at it.
I am not going to threaten any censorship. I am not going to threaten to close forums down. I AM going to ask that you NOT become the people from whence we came.
For some reason people tie thier opinions to themselves as self worth. The opinions of the same regurgitated stream is non effective...if things are thought thru first instead the constant rise of self fullfillment, this site could be more valuable...I personaly can see when a Sunami is goiing to hit a post and I stay away...It's quality and not quantity..
For me it was the self-righteous indignation that some posters shared toward sogwap after her comments - like they had never sinned or fallen short.
satori stated it best:
Sogwap's story was not so unusual. It has nothing to do with sex, adultery or promiscuity. It has to do with a not-so-unique believer's vulnerability, and the need to be loved and accepted and validated, and with finding the illusion of those things in the false fulfillment of Wierwille's promises, promises he read to her (and us) from the bible.
Perhaps she didn't state it right in some poster's opinions, but maybe, just maybe she was quite nervous about posting what she posted, maybe, just maybe very emotional and maybe, just maybe she could have clarified what she meant if she had been able to continue without attacks such as:
You don't know what damage you did, dear. There were those of us who had no interest whatsoever in sleeping with married men. I don't care WHO THEY WERE. As a matter of fact, there were those of us who had no interest in sleeping with single men.
I have to confess, sogwap, I am pretty upset and extremely mad. It was women like you that made some of us targets for the predators in the way who had absolutely no morals. It was women like you, that made men assume every female was up for grabs. Literally.
I just can't believe that's for real.... women like that.....
Sigh...just the ammo twi fan club members needed to conveniently dismiss the pain and damage inflicted on so many many other young girls who WERE drugged and assaulted ..... a chance to support their own pet theories Just to quote a few.......
Not to hurt anyone's feelings here but it was not "women like this" that caused the sexual abuse to take place in TWI - it was the unchecked sick doctrine among the MOGS and wannabe MOGS that assumed that all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. Is it the child's fault in school if the teacher comes on to them and they have a sexual relationship. No it is the one that SHOULD KNOW BETTER and draw the bounderies and maintain the boundaries. That is the responsibility you have when you have the privilege of being someone overseeing a "flock" whether religious or otherwise.
Mark O'Malley and many others said it best - the doctor, the counselor, the minister, the Pope.......anyone in the position to have vulnerable people under their care are the ones that should be held accountable.
I think this thread is heading in a bad direction, in that dragging out posts from other threads, without the complete context leaves a misleading impression, and as far as I can tell, the post in question has been removed.
I am not going to defend my position on that particular thread and though I could drag in posts from other threads where the poster in question makes statements that are equally over broad and insulting to a large number of posters here, I think it detracts from the overall point.
I get from his post that Paw wants us to moderate ourselves better. Rarely would that be a bad suggestion, and if he had not pulled the example he did, I would have simply agreed. However, I felt that some clarification was needed with respect to one of the examples he used.
And again, I ask - when people come in here and post with no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain to one or more of the rest of us AND the seem inclined to stay for days, weeks, and months so they can continue - what are we to do about that? Are we supposed to just sit back and take it?
Because in respect to the two posters I mentioned in my earlier post - I did ignore them for quite a long time. I saw their posts and chose not to respond. But eventually, as these two posters continued to harass people over and over again from thread to thread to thread (and in one case, one poster in particular was being harassed from thread to thread to thread) it just didn't feel right inside to continue ignoring it.
Hey Abi...if you're talking about me and Mo, I posted a couple of weeks back that I had proved my points with the LDS chuch and was desisting from REPLYING to her posts, so I hope you meant what you said in a 'past tense' way. If you weren't referring to me, I apologise.
Referring to this thread, what Sogwap said offended so many of the ladies here at GS is only natural because women DO get more emotional about things, that's just the way they're wired.
Hopefully Sogwap realised that.
As Johnny Lingo pointed out awhile back also, there are 'little clicks' here at GS and a certain group think mentality, but then again, that's just the nature of people.
The only thing you can really do is ban 'hate speech' !!
Allan, I intentionally left names out, because it detracts from the point I was making and the questions I had. I also think it is in poor taste to bring someone's name into a thread when that person has not posted on the thread - the same with bringing in posts from other threads without getting permission from the one who wrote it.
I don't believe Paw is asking anyone not to disagree, but accusing and blaming are not the same as disagreeing. In the case of new posters, accusing them of being fakes, trolls, or WAYGB right out of the gate is not going to bring much new blood into the discussions around here. As for disagreeing, there are ways to do it without relegating a thread to the "Soap Opera" downstairs.
Let's try an emotionally neutral analogy: Someone comes here and says, "All Fords are excellent cars. No one ever has problems with Fords unless they don't maintain them properly."
And let's say I had a Ford that was a lemon. I might respond in one of two ways:
1. "Why do you say that? I had a Ford that was in the shop every other week that cost me a fortuneo keep on the road, and I maintained it according to every requirement of the warranty. So I disagree with your opinion of Fords. Maybe yours is great but my experience was a lot different."
or
2. "It's no WONDER Ford gets away with selling such crap cars, because crazy people like you continue to buy them. People like you who support such shoddy workmanship are the reason Ford owners get screwed every day. How DARE you come in here and say how great Fords are!?!"
Response #1 might cause the poster to say, "Really? I didn't know that." Or he might stubbornly continue to insist he's right, but at least he's been given the chance to clarify and/or debate reasonably. Response #2 is almost guaranteed to put the poster on the defensive.
Abi asks:
And again, I ask - when people come in here and post with no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain to one or more of the rest of us AND the seem inclined to stay for days, weeks, and months so they can continue - what are we to do about that?
If we had a way to know people's intent at the time of their first posts, I suppose behavior like this could be nipped in the bud. We don't. We can be cautious and see how they behave themselves. My experience is that people reveal plenty about themselves and their motives if given room to "speak." Also, it's important to remember that an opinion contrary to the majority opinion here does not automatically constitute harassment or cruielty.
I think few people have come here with "no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain." But if someone rubs us that way, we can state our disagreement and then ignore them (and I don't necessarily mean with the "ignore" feature, although that's an option; I mean pay them no mind). Some people thrive on stirring the pot. But if no one's standing around the pot watching it, that game gets boring for them, don't you think?
In this life we can't control our obnoxious coworker or the rude guy sititng next to us on the bus or our sarcastic sister-in-law. We can, however, control how we react to them. And GS is no different from life in general. There are many good people who hang out here, with diverse opinions. A couple or three people consistently express their particular opinions in a way that aggravates/angers most everyone else. Arguing is generally futile. In one case I can think of, scolding falls on deaf ears. So what can you do?
I think back on how I dealt with a bullying coworker. I'm not easily bullied, so at first I butted heads with her. A lot. When I finally "considered the source," with the source being someone with extreme control issues and a hot temper, I simply stopped putting my share of the fuel on the fire. I wasn't going to let her goad me into being angry or upset. I stopped playing into her manipulation of my emotions. And do you know what happened? It no longer was a kick for her to push my buttons when she didn't get a heated reaction. We'll never be best friends, but things got a lot more peaceful around the office. I think that would work here in many cases, too.
I think that some times we assume that we know what a poster was trying to say instead of asking for clarification. Also, folks who don't have much experience with posting on boards like this have to "find their feet" so to speak since communicating online is much different from communicating over the phone or in person. And, some folks are just better at communicating, period.
We do need to be more patient with each other. What gets my goat is when victims are further victimized or told that they are ignoring their part in whatever happened. So often it's the same male posters who always jump in with derrogatory and condescension toward the victim. That's when the topic turns nasty and anyone who was sharing either shuts down or becomes venomous.
I, too, cringe when new posters are attacked, questioned and accused of being WayGB or much worse. I agree with Linda that we should give people the benefit of the doubt. If they're fake it'll come out sooner or later.... I've had new people contact me privately because they're afraid to post on the boards and that's embarrassing for me because they should feel safe to post publicly.
I'm guilty of not always being on my best behavior, but I will certainly try to be better and more conscious of how I respond and react.
But I agree with Abigail about the harrassing posters:
And again, I ask - when people come in here and post with no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain to one or more of the rest of us AND the seem inclined to stay for days, weeks, and months so they can continue - what are we to do about that? Are we supposed to just sit back and take it?
Because in respect to the two posters I mentioned in my earlier post - I did ignore them for quite a long time. I saw their posts and chose not to respond. But eventually, as these two posters continued to harass people over and over again from thread to thread to thread (and in one case, one poster in particular was being harassed from thread to thread to thread) it just didn't feel right inside to continue ignoring it.
I've reported post after post and honestly don't see any value that these people bring to the board. They don't contribute to the topic on hand, all they do is attack and hurt. I think something should be done about these folks. I have them on ignore, but since people engage them in battle, it's impossible to really ignore it. It's not the same as heated discussions among differing viewpoints, it's flat out name-calling, harrassing and hate. It's still going on and I don't know what else to do about it.
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ChattyKathy
Thank you Sir. I never want to become what I left. This was very gracious of you.
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satori001
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Linda Z
Thank you, Paw.
I know there are people who are hurting and who are flexing their "free to speak up" muscles. I get that.
But sometimes discrection is the better part of valor, isn't it? "Wait and see" is often a better response than a knee-jerk reaction.
Isn't it better to give people the benefit of the doubt? If we're being "too easy" on them, they'll reveal their own warts soon enough. If not, maybe we'll all benefit from something they'll say down the road if they're not run off in a cloud of suspicion and accusation. Who wants a "welcome" like that?
I agree that censorship isn't the answer. Nor do I think the moderators should be called upon to intervene every time someone thinks another poster is annoying. But that's a whole 'nother topic, I guess.
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satori001
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Abigail
"In a thread recently, a woman spoke openly about an affair with LCM. She made some observations that, I felt, were honest, not GSPC but honest.
What followed was a vile bashing of her and her opinions. Was she not entitled to her opinion?"
Paw, I know the thread you speak of, and I must say - given the way the woman in question told her story and the way she worded her opinion, it did very much appear as if she were the one casting stones at some who were victims. I am sorry, I understand that she did try to clear up her intent and I think that is great. Likewise, I am more than willing to recognize and understand that sometimes what we think we are saying and what we are actually saying are not one and the same. In other words, we sometimes word things poorly. Additionally, the problem is compounded by the lack of facial expressions and tone of voice. However, I reread the original post several times and it was (imho) worded poorly, leaving the wrong impression.
And yes, she is entitled to their opinion, but is everyone else not likewise entitled to express theirs? And again, I agree that we should exercise some self-control and self-moderating - but sometimes our buttons get pushed and we push back - that is part of being human.
Likewise, while some of the responses may have been harsh - so were the implications of her opinion as stated in that original post, even if they weren't intended.
" have had numerous emails telling me to be careful of two posters that "know" LCM. They will most likely NEVER post here again."
I do not have any idea who the two posters are whom you are referring to here Paw. But it does seem to me (and I think I am rather thick skinned most of the time) that we have had a few posters of late who's only goal and intent is to harrass and cause pain. One poster even acknowledged as much in the chatroom one night. The other poster seems to be quazi stalking another poster from thread to thread with no intention other than to harass - I say that because he does not seem to add to the coversation in any form beyond that of insults directed at one person in particular. Although, he seems to be more than happy to take pot shots at other posters as well, again without adding anything to the conversation.
"I am not going to threaten any censorship. I am not going to threaten to close forums down. I AM going to ask that you NOT become the people from whence we came."
I am glad you aren't going to threaten any censorship, nor close the forums. But I would be curious as to what it is you suggest we do when faced with a poster who's only intent seems to be to antagonize the hell out of everyone else. Yes, I know we can ignore - but to me that too seems like doing what we had to do in TWI. Close our mouths and take it. I guess I think there is value in standing up to some of these people and calling a spade a spade.
Just my thoughts, for what they are worth. I understand that figuring out how to deal with all of us Ex-Wayfers is quite a handful - I don't blame you for getting frustrated and even ....ed off. I just think that what you are seeing pretty much "goes with the territory". I am sorry there are people who won't post here, or do and then get "run off". But if the alternative is to sit back and take the insults silently, or to be censored - - well, I think there are already websites for ex-wayfers that are more than happy to censor anything that might stir up some emotions, and there is a reason why I don't go to those sites.
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satori001
It's happened before, but using someone's post to make them the target of an inquisition has mostly been out of bounds, here and at Waydale, and it has nothing to do with censorship.
Good people on average just don't do the role of Grand Inquisitor very well, so when a wild hair gets the better of them, this is what happens.
Sogwap's story was not so unusual. It has nothing to do with sex, adultery or promiscuity. It has to do with a not-so-unique believer's vulnerability, and the need to be loved and accepted and validated, and with finding the illusion of those things in the false fulfillment of Wierwille's promises, promises he read to her (and us) from the bible.
I've only read part of that thread, but the inquisitors need to find a better target for their indignation. She's not the enemy.
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dmiller
Maybe I don't fit in here.
I think every last SOMEBODY deserves to be heard, both with dignity, and patience ---
Though that is not usually the *norm*, given where we are all coming from.
I admire the Goey's, the Satori's, the Garth's, the Sudo's, and the Zixar's
of this site for their eloquence, and knowledge, and posting abilities.
More than once, I've wished that I were that well *equipped* mentally ---
but I'm not. Never have been, and never will be.
And looking at it realistically -- (from a current) viewpoint ---
I see a need for more *heart* here, and less *condemnation*.
You're right Paw -- we left that twi crowd a while back ------
some recently, and some a long time ago.
And it doesn't mean we need to *continue* the tradition that we were taught there.
I hang out on the JWO SITE as well as here.
I think Roy (Year2027) and myself are the only two GSCafe folks left over there.
Lot's of vulgarity there, no moderators, accusations abound, tempers flare ----
and this place (GSC) seems to be becoming like that one -- minus the vulgarity.
Both Roy, and I have had cheap shots thrown at us --
He has responded better than I -- and as a result ----
He is listened to as someone who doesn't give a rip about you "personally"
but cares about you over-all. Isn't that how it is supposed to be??
And that is as it should be here. (My IMO)
We had the *Word* taught to us, we knew how to *rightly divide* ----
BUT we were messed with, in every sense of the word ---
So now we are *entitled* to do the same to others?????????????????????
I DON'T THINK SO!!!!! (and any of you can quote me on that) ---
While I understand the frustration, the anger, etc., etc., ----
decency, and consideration should be at the forefront. (just my IMO).
And if we can't treat *our own* with decency --- how will you treat others??
Why the *eternal* suspicion??????
Is everyone a liar, until proven true?????????
After thinking it through --- I would never trade my *heart*, for *intelligence*.
Life is too damn short. Folks need _________ (you fill in the blank)
Thank you for reading this post. I meant every word of it. :)
(And --------- I am NOT condemning any person here -- an observation only.) ;)
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DogLover
Thanks, Paw ... what you said needed saying.
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templelady
Not to put too fine a point on it, you have to be a woman to understand exactly why what was posted ruffled so many feathers. Most of the vitriol came from my side of the gender divide. The anger had NOTHING TO DO with the act itself, but what was suggested as to the motivation of, not only the poster, but other women in a similar position.What was suggested, from a female perspective, is that we are all whores who traded sex for favors, thereby relegating us all to the "bad girl" category. The kind of women, in short, that no man will ever take home to meet his mother. It was a calculated and vicious insult, and any woman would know that full well even as she was typing.
Should the rest of us been "bigger" women and not responded in kind or better yet, not even risen to the bait in the first place?? definitely. That said I for one will try to do better.
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WordWolf
I trust and respect you, and will play by the rules you require,
but I reserve the right to disagree on a case-by-case basis with you.
When she spoke on her own experience, she spoke for herself.
That was not made an issue.
When she took HER experience, and extrapolated from it, she expressed an opinion.
Had she applied it to SOME people, she almost certainly would have
gotten a caveat, that is "of course there are lots of people this did NOT
apply to, and this should not be used to claim it was true of all people by
anyone seeking to tar VICTIMS-whom this does NOT apply to."
However, she made no attempt to limit the scope of her claim-
which means she was saying
"this was true for me, and is true for everyone".
When she said "it was true for me", that limits the room for disagreement.
As soon as someone applies a rule to EVERYONE, that's tantamount to inviting
disagreement.
Watch the difference between these 2 statements.
"I didn't vote for him. I know he's a crook."
and
"I didn't vote for him. Everybody who didn't vote for him knows he's a crook."
How about
"I work full-time. I feel the taxes on big business should cover all the government's
expenses so that citizens should not have to pay tax."
and
"I work fill-time. Everyone who works full-time feels that taxes on big business
should cover all the government's expenses so that citizens should not have to
pay tax."
In both cases, I'd expect the exceptions to begin replying immediately.
The reason I usually don't get this complaint about MYSELF is that I try to avoid
"all-encompassing" words and expressions, by suggestion, implication or direct
statement. There will almost ALWAYS be exceptions to ANY generalization.
I also often reread before I hit the "Add Reply" button.
Some people would be surprised how much that one step would improve
one's posts.
This was an exception case. The attitude is "protect the victims."Always was in the GSC (in my experience, since after ezboard, anyway),
and remains so today, for the usual suspects.
Why did they all react?
This post went at cross-purposes to that, and suggested that the VICTIMS
were not VICTIMS, but willing participants in ALL CASES.
Why be surprised that was challenged?
Frankly, I didn't join in because it was already said.
=============
Entirely different situation.
I saw no reason to react the way some people did.
I didn't join in on that one because I saw no reason to
agree or prolong the digression.
I wouldn't blame them for not returning, but I don't see the reason
for running them off, either. The people I'd recommend running off
go after posters in an antagonistic fashion, and neither of those
posters did anything of the kind. Nor did they even warrant any
sort of warning or caution.
Watch their posts? Sure. Watch mine while you're at it.
Always a good idea.
Posting with civility beats the alternatives.
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likeaneagle
I agree Paw..
For some reason people tie thier opinions to themselves as self worth. The opinions of the same regurgitated stream is non effective...if things are thought thru first instead the constant rise of self fullfillment, this site could be more valuable...I personaly can see when a Sunami is goiing to hit a post and I stay away...It's quality and not quantity..
It has become extreme.
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outofdafog
For me it was the self-righteous indignation that some posters shared toward sogwap after her comments - like they had never sinned or fallen short.
satori stated it best:
Sogwap's story was not so unusual. It has nothing to do with sex, adultery or promiscuity. It has to do with a not-so-unique believer's vulnerability, and the need to be loved and accepted and validated, and with finding the illusion of those things in the false fulfillment of Wierwille's promises, promises he read to her (and us) from the bible.
Perhaps she didn't state it right in some poster's opinions, but maybe, just maybe she was quite nervous about posting what she posted, maybe, just maybe very emotional and maybe, just maybe she could have clarified what she meant if she had been able to continue without attacks such as:
You don't know what damage you did, dear. There were those of us who had no interest whatsoever in sleeping with married men. I don't care WHO THEY WERE. As a matter of fact, there were those of us who had no interest in sleeping with single men.
I have to confess, sogwap, I am pretty upset and extremely mad. It was women like you that made some of us targets for the predators in the way who had absolutely no morals. It was women like you, that made men assume every female was up for grabs. Literally.
I just can't believe that's for real.... women like that.....
Sigh...just the ammo twi fan club members needed to conveniently dismiss the pain and damage inflicted on so many many other young girls who WERE drugged and assaulted ..... a chance to support their own pet theories Just to quote a few.......
Not to hurt anyone's feelings here but it was not "women like this" that caused the sexual abuse to take place in TWI - it was the unchecked sick doctrine among the MOGS and wannabe MOGS that assumed that all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. Is it the child's fault in school if the teacher comes on to them and they have a sexual relationship. No it is the one that SHOULD KNOW BETTER and draw the bounderies and maintain the boundaries. That is the responsibility you have when you have the privilege of being someone overseeing a "flock" whether religious or otherwise.
Mark O'Malley and many others said it best - the doctor, the counselor, the minister, the Pope.......anyone in the position to have vulnerable people under their care are the ones that should be held accountable.
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ChattyKathy
Excellent points!
And I guess it obvious I got her intent at start and was not offended by her. (the last comment of hers is not in this text)
She brought to the board something that needed to be whether we liked the message or not.
To blame her for why other women were abused was cruel.
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Abigail
I think this thread is heading in a bad direction, in that dragging out posts from other threads, without the complete context leaves a misleading impression, and as far as I can tell, the post in question has been removed.
I am not going to defend my position on that particular thread and though I could drag in posts from other threads where the poster in question makes statements that are equally over broad and insulting to a large number of posters here, I think it detracts from the overall point.
I get from his post that Paw wants us to moderate ourselves better. Rarely would that be a bad suggestion, and if he had not pulled the example he did, I would have simply agreed. However, I felt that some clarification was needed with respect to one of the examples he used.
And again, I ask - when people come in here and post with no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain to one or more of the rest of us AND the seem inclined to stay for days, weeks, and months so they can continue - what are we to do about that? Are we supposed to just sit back and take it?
Because in respect to the two posters I mentioned in my earlier post - I did ignore them for quite a long time. I saw their posts and chose not to respond. But eventually, as these two posters continued to harass people over and over again from thread to thread to thread (and in one case, one poster in particular was being harassed from thread to thread to thread) it just didn't feel right inside to continue ignoring it.
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outofdafog
" think this thread is heading in a bad direction, in that dragging out posts from other threads, without the complete context leaves"
People drag out quotes from every thread on the forum...............
Everyone who has been following this thread knows "the context" in which the entire subject of sexual abuse on both sides has been dissected.
And I posted in context to what pawtucket posted...............
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ChattyKathy
Abi, the original post is still here, I just read it but can't locate it again. Sorry.
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Abigail
okay - thanks Kathy, I couldn't find it. I didn't want to repost it here anyway, just wanted to read again to once again re-check my own POV.
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allan w.
Hey Abi...if you're talking about me and Mo, I posted a couple of weeks back that I had proved my points with the LDS chuch and was desisting from REPLYING to her posts, so I hope you meant what you said in a 'past tense' way. If you weren't referring to me, I apologise.
Referring to this thread, what Sogwap said offended so many of the ladies here at GS is only natural because women DO get more emotional about things, that's just the way they're wired.
Hopefully Sogwap realised that.
As Johnny Lingo pointed out awhile back also, there are 'little clicks' here at GS and a certain group think mentality, but then again, that's just the nature of people.
The only thing you can really do is ban 'hate speech' !!
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ChattyKathy
Abi, here it is....
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...73entry233373
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Abigail
Allan, I intentionally left names out, because it detracts from the point I was making and the questions I had. I also think it is in poor taste to bring someone's name into a thread when that person has not posted on the thread - the same with bringing in posts from other threads without getting permission from the one who wrote it.
thanks Kathy.
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ChattyKathy
You're welcome and good morning to you. :)
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Linda Z
I don't believe Paw is asking anyone not to disagree, but accusing and blaming are not the same as disagreeing. In the case of new posters, accusing them of being fakes, trolls, or WAYGB right out of the gate is not going to bring much new blood into the discussions around here. As for disagreeing, there are ways to do it without relegating a thread to the "Soap Opera" downstairs.
Let's try an emotionally neutral analogy: Someone comes here and says, "All Fords are excellent cars. No one ever has problems with Fords unless they don't maintain them properly."
And let's say I had a Ford that was a lemon. I might respond in one of two ways:
1. "Why do you say that? I had a Ford that was in the shop every other week that cost me a fortuneo keep on the road, and I maintained it according to every requirement of the warranty. So I disagree with your opinion of Fords. Maybe yours is great but my experience was a lot different."
or
2. "It's no WONDER Ford gets away with selling such crap cars, because crazy people like you continue to buy them. People like you who support such shoddy workmanship are the reason Ford owners get screwed every day. How DARE you come in here and say how great Fords are!?!"
Response #1 might cause the poster to say, "Really? I didn't know that." Or he might stubbornly continue to insist he's right, but at least he's been given the chance to clarify and/or debate reasonably. Response #2 is almost guaranteed to put the poster on the defensive.
Abi asks:
If we had a way to know people's intent at the time of their first posts, I suppose behavior like this could be nipped in the bud. We don't. We can be cautious and see how they behave themselves. My experience is that people reveal plenty about themselves and their motives if given room to "speak." Also, it's important to remember that an opinion contrary to the majority opinion here does not automatically constitute harassment or cruielty.
I think few people have come here with "no other intent but to harass, insult, or cause pain." But if someone rubs us that way, we can state our disagreement and then ignore them (and I don't necessarily mean with the "ignore" feature, although that's an option; I mean pay them no mind). Some people thrive on stirring the pot. But if no one's standing around the pot watching it, that game gets boring for them, don't you think?
In this life we can't control our obnoxious coworker or the rude guy sititng next to us on the bus or our sarcastic sister-in-law. We can, however, control how we react to them. And GS is no different from life in general. There are many good people who hang out here, with diverse opinions. A couple or three people consistently express their particular opinions in a way that aggravates/angers most everyone else. Arguing is generally futile. In one case I can think of, scolding falls on deaf ears. So what can you do?
I think back on how I dealt with a bullying coworker. I'm not easily bullied, so at first I butted heads with her. A lot. When I finally "considered the source," with the source being someone with extreme control issues and a hot temper, I simply stopped putting my share of the fuel on the fire. I wasn't going to let her goad me into being angry or upset. I stopped playing into her manipulation of my emotions. And do you know what happened? It no longer was a kick for her to push my buttons when she didn't get a heated reaction. We'll never be best friends, but things got a lot more peaceful around the office. I think that would work here in many cases, too.
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Galen
Paw-
Ever see chickens running free range when one of them is showing a wound?
It does not have to be a real wound, just something that looks like a wound to the other chickens.
:)
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Belle
Thank you, Paw. :)
I think that some times we assume that we know what a poster was trying to say instead of asking for clarification. Also, folks who don't have much experience with posting on boards like this have to "find their feet" so to speak since communicating online is much different from communicating over the phone or in person. And, some folks are just better at communicating, period.
We do need to be more patient with each other. What gets my goat is when victims are further victimized or told that they are ignoring their part in whatever happened. So often it's the same male posters who always jump in with derrogatory and condescension toward the victim. That's when the topic turns nasty and anyone who was sharing either shuts down or becomes venomous.
I, too, cringe when new posters are attacked, questioned and accused of being WayGB or much worse. I agree with Linda that we should give people the benefit of the doubt. If they're fake it'll come out sooner or later.... I've had new people contact me privately because they're afraid to post on the boards and that's embarrassing for me because they should feel safe to post publicly.
I'm guilty of not always being on my best behavior, but I will certainly try to be better and more conscious of how I respond and react.
But I agree with Abigail about the harrassing posters:
I've reported post after post and honestly don't see any value that these people bring to the board. They don't contribute to the topic on hand, all they do is attack and hurt. I think something should be done about these folks. I have them on ignore, but since people engage them in battle, it's impossible to really ignore it. It's not the same as heated discussions among differing viewpoints, it's flat out name-calling, harrassing and hate. It's still going on and I don't know what else to do about it.
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