Customer Satisfaction

[Ham]

This is for a "friend".

Edited January 30, 2008 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

If someone goes to the "ex-way, ex-corps" site, please direct them to this little poll. I'd like some kind of "legitimacy" in the survey.

Thanks.

:)

[oldiesman]

You forgot to include corps sponsors, who in large part paid for "the product."

[skyrider]

You forgot to include corps sponsors, who in large part paid for "the product."

Ummmm......actually, I think the sponsors paid for the "R & D" (research and development) of "the product"......in a number of stages of twi development.

Many graduated corps PAID for wierwille's pyramid with years and years of service.......building the twi empire brick by brick, class by class. While wierwille waltzed around on stages from city to city and rode his harleys and sipped his drambuie.........many corps worked countless hours of set-up, class oversight, undershepherding responsibilities, etc. etc. to keep the machinery and production going.

Those who "fed and fueled the steam engines of the Titanic" (the worker bees - corps) were busy doing their job while the "officers on deck" were oblivious to the impending iceberg just ahead.

[waysider]

I find I must agree with Skyrider.

Corps sponsorship did not pay for the "product", it paid for the lifestyle of a select handful of upper management members.

I was never in the Corps, but I did graduate from Fellow Laborers and sponsored various Corps members.

I can tell you this, the limb headquarters did not maintain itself.

FL cut the grass, they cleaned the toilets, they "painted and patched" ----and on and on and on.

We, the FL, produced the "product" which was a facility that represented our state as a regional hub for the entire state.

That limb HQ, and its illusionary facade, was the real product that we were manufacturing.

It was "paid for" by our voluntary efforts, though voluntary might just be too soft a word as we actually paid for the privilege to be there.

If Corps sponsorship was supposed to be paying for what the Corps received in exchange, I would have to conclude that the monetary investment was very one-sided.

[TrustAndObey]

Very interesting poll here..

I just want to know who voted a 5 on the "Realized, or experienced quality of the product" ???

My gosh.. You must still be a Corpse then!

I can't doubt I learned a few 'minor' things while in training, but nothing I wouldn't have learned without being in, and nothing so life changing that I should spend 4 or even 2 years in-rez to learn.

And I certainly didn't learn anything with any biblical importance. I have a tape handy with me, that has everyone in my Corps' graudation sharing what they learned. And you know what, everything everyone shared is the same thing I heared from people taking the FOUNDATIONAL PFAL!

I mean, how much can you learn about "believing God"?! What, you didn't learn that BEFORE you went in?

And how to understand the Bible better? Umm yeah right.. We went over the classes again and again.. What, no one could study the classes on their own time? Oh, wait we had Greek and other study classes.. Let's just say, the person teaching Greek to the Corp knew less than any person having taken at least one year of Koine Greek at a real seminary, knew less about Grammar than anyone taking a half of year of grammar at a real college, and well the list goes on.. Yup.. Worthless...

But the bright side to it all.. At least we had lots of unsupervised study time of which I wouldn't have had as much if I was out working a real job. Allowed me to see how much of a farse they really were! lol

[Twinky]

At the time I was in, the Corps sponsorship actually was the "pocket money" paid to Corps each month. We got $30 to pay for personal stuff - stamps (to write to sponsors), stationery, laundry, candy, personal hygiene, etc, not to mention gifts/blessing others. There would have been a very small amount left over from what they returned to us and that would go towards the cost of food, housing us, heating the dorm, utilities, etc.

I believe (not sure) that we had to find sponsorship of $1500 per block, 3 blocks a year = $4500. Less 12 x $30 = $3600 which gives $900 for other stuff.

So actually there was no "profit" from Corps sponsorship.

It was all the stuff you contributed afterwards that brought in the money: your own ABS and that of others that you recruited.

[rhino]

Many graduated corps PAID for wierwille's pyramid with years and years of service.......building the twi empire brick by brick, class by class. While wierwille waltzed around on stages from city to city and rode his harleys and sipped his drambuie.........many corps worked countless hours of set-up, class oversight, undershepherding responsibilities, etc. etc. to keep the machinery and production going.

Yes ... but it wasn't really a "pyramid scheme", since in that case everyone would have gotten some profit for those we "brought up".

I am sure I'd be retired if I got a piece of the action for everyone I either got in piffle, or ran the class for, or got to go WOW or corpse ... and then a piece of all their ABS, and a small piece of all the product that those "under me" sold.

But the top dogs took it all ... and most of us paid for the privilege of doing sales. A financial pyramid scheme would have been much better ... shoot, maybe we would have stuck around if it was making us rich. :o

[skyrider]

Yes ... but it wasn't really a "pyramid scheme", since in that case everyone would have gotten some profit for those we "brought up".

I am sure I'd be retired if I got a piece of the action for everyone I either got in piffle, or ran the class for, or got to go WOW or corpse ... and then a piece of all their ABS, and a small piece of all the product that those "under me" sold.

But the top dogs took it all ... and most of us paid for the privilege of doing sales. A financial pyramid scheme would have been much better ... shoot, maybe we would have stuck around if it was making us rich. :o

rhino.....in my analogy, I called it a "pyramid"......NOT a "pyramid scheme."

Think Pharoah.......think slave-labour toiling with oppressive task-masters........think heavy manual labor while oppressors stand around. Or, the Titanic engine-workers.............same type of analogy.

If I'd said a "pyramid scheme"........then, yes you are absolutely correct.

[Watered Garden]

To add to Waysider's comments:

FL also had about an acre and a half of organic garden behind the limb facility. We grew and canned or froze a lot of produce. It was hard work; in the spring and summer many a Saturday was spent on bended knee, weeding and seeding. Add to this that many city kids didn't know a radish from a ranunculus and cheerfully "weeded" out the baby plants along with the baby weeds.

At RC it was worse. More garden, more ignorance and added to the mix were chickens, beef cattle, and pigs! Every six weeks a hapless WC had to drive to the Rome City post office to pick up an order of baby chicks, which replaced the six week old chickens that had been slaughtered. I don't believe the WC were required to butcher the hogs or pigs, at least not while we were around.

One would have thought that with all the harvesting and slaughtering going on we would have feasted on fried chicken, chicken fricassee, chicken this, that and the other thing, interspersed with a few filet mignon and the finest roasted pork loin in Indiana. But no! When I inquired about the destination of all the goodies, I was given some mumbled explanation that the Man of God liked to entertain his friends with barbecues and such, so all the beef and most of the other stuff, including the hard-grown produce, was shipped to New Knoxville. I heartily thought that His Majesty should come over and help with the harvest, not to mention the chicken slaughters hissownself, being the primary example of godliness on this earth for this day and time and hour. As powerful as he was, surely he could have bloodlessly slain 600 chickens with his own believing!

God being merciful, we never had to participate in the chicken slaughter or anything else murderous. Feeding the little boogers was bad enough. One time I did have to drive to the post office to pick up several cartons of little peeps, however. It was absolute murder getting them back to campus; they peeped incessantly, didn't exactly smell like Chanel No. 5, and I felt bad for their eventual terrifying demise and ultimate end at the MOG's dinner table.

So did the hapless FWC get to enjoy the fruits of their labor? OH HE!! NO!

WG

Edited January 31, 2008 by Watered Garden

[rhino]

rhino.....in my analogy, I called it a "pyramid"......NOT a "pyramid scheme."

Think Pharoah.......think slave-labour toiling with oppressive task-masters........think heavy manual labor while oppressors stand around. Or, the Titanic engine-workers.............same type of analogy.

If I'd said a "pyramid scheme"........then, yes you are absolutely correct.

yes, I should have said "if you mean pyramid scheme", which came to mind for me. And I wouldn't have said anything, but it made me wonder if it would have been more successful if it was structured like Amway ... in light of the topic title. I suppose an annual residual check would have made us feel dirty.

Yeah, we were treated somewhat as slaves. But since it was good to be a doulos, and we were moving the word ... blech ...

I suppose we submitted willingly, though I'm sure there was a Pied Piper in there somewhere.

Edited January 31, 2008 by rhino

[TrustAndObey]

I believe (not sure) that we had to find sponsorship of $1500 per block, 3 blocks a year = $4500. Less 12 x $30 = $3600 which gives $900 for other stuff.

I think your math is a little off.. 12 x 30 = $3600.. I wish!! You really need to take away one zero which makes it $360 paid back to us! And that gives The Way $4,140 a year. Which really isn't all that much.. But much more than $900 for housing and feeding. I'm sure they got the bills paid for the most part.

[Ham]

Interesting numbers so far.

I personally gave it a "4" for perceived value. With the stated goals and promised results, it looked good.. I'd attribute it to the advertising.

what's more interesting is the realized value. It would suggest to me that the product either wasn't exactly what it was advertised to be, or it simply did not live up to it's promised expectations..

I'd like to see a couple of hundred votes..

somebody needs to go campaign on that "other" site and tell them some deadbeat Squirrel needs help..

[Ham]

Even if you thought it was a little slice of heaven, you can vote anonymously and not get lambasted or anything..

[Twinky]

Trust and Obey: You are quite right. I knew that place had addled my brain. It's worst than I thought

That is quite a lot of money left over...

For only ten in rez WC that's $40,000; how many HQ staff does that pay for?

I could find some quite useful things to do with $4,000 now.

I'm sure my spiritual partners could have found lots of useful things to do with it at the time.

[TheHighWay]

At the time I was in, the Corps sponsorship actually was the "pocket money" paid to Corps each month. We got $30 to pay for personal stuff - stamps (to write to sponsors), stationery, laundry, candy, personal hygiene, etc, not to mention gifts/blessing others. There would have been a very small amount left over from what they returned to us and that would go towards the cost of food, housing us, heating the dorm, utilities, etc.

So actually there was no "profit" from Corps sponsorship.

I'd like to know exactly when that changed... when I went in-rez, we had to come up with our sponsorship to pay twi, AND sponsorship to cover our $30 a month. And if you had any special needs (medicines, etc.) you had to find sponsorship for that as well...

And there were hundreds of us in-rez by then... no profit? HAH. Yes, they had several hundred paid staff as well, but look at how little they were paid, and the fact that the corps did most of the unskilled labor (dishes, meals, housekeeping, grounds)... How could they not be making a profit?

Edited February 1, 2008 by TheHighWay

[Ham]

I wonder how many of the corps "volunteered" SKILLED labor..

[Ham]

For only ten in rez WC that's $40,000; how many HQ staff does that pay for?

I thought that was what abs was supposed to be for.. partly at least.

I also understand that many teachers were "adjunct".. i.e.. they lived off campus, holding a job or other ministry responsibility, and only came in to do their class once a year.

And how much staff work was actually done by the volunteers themselves?

One would have thought that with all the harvesting and slaughtering going on we would have feasted on fried chicken, chicken fricassee, chicken this, that and the other thing, interspersed with a few filet mignon and the finest roasted pork loin in Indiana. But no! When I inquired about the destination of all the goodies, I was given some mumbled explanation that the Man of God liked to entertain his friends with barbecues and such, so all the beef and most of the other stuff, including the hard-grown produce, was shipped to New Knoxville.

I had thought that the produce went on the corps dinner tables.. I wonder if you guys can litigate for deprivation of wages..

FL also had about an acre and a half of organic garden behind the limb facility. We grew and canned or froze a lot of produce. It was hard work; in the spring and summer many a Saturday was spent on bended knee, weeding and seeding. Add to this that many city kids didn't know a radish from a ranunculus and cheerfully "weeded" out the baby plants along with the baby weeds.

The most galling thing about this, is the labor was.. FREE. Cost.. nada. And when the FREE labor happened to be inexperienced, or over-taxed, they had the temerity to actually complain and rant about the quality of service.

[waysider]

SNIP

FL also had about an acre and a half of organic garden behind the limb facility. We grew and canned or froze a lot of produce. It was hard work; in the spring and summer many a Saturday was spent on bended knee, weeding and seeding. Add to this that many city kids didn't know a radish from a ranunculus and cheerfully "weeded" out the baby plants along with the baby weeds.

SNIP

If I remember correctly, we had to pay $6.00/week to the food co-op fund.

To see that in perspective, that was about 3 hours pay at our day jobs for most of us.

We made our own Mayo, salad dressing, sprouts, familia, etc.

Whatever we couldn't make or grow, we bought once a week on "manna" night.

We had red meat once a week.

Don't get me wrong, I think the menu was actually pretty healthy.

It just wasn't always very appealing ------or filling.

My first year there, Susan L33ds was in charge of menu planning and coordinating the effort.

I really think she did an outstanding job with what she had to work with.

But think about it, 6x50= $300.

That was a whole lot of money back in 1975.

Plus, that only paid for breakfast and supper.

We were on our own for lunch or anything else.

And then we had rent & utilities and "house fund".

It's hard to believe there wasn't at least SOME margin of profit just from these things.

Add to that, we did limb work for free, had to ABS and sponsor a corps member to boot!

I really don't think they ever had to use any "red ink" in the ledger.

But then again, I'm no accountant so what do I know?

[Watered Garden]

I'm sure some of the produce and meat did go on the WC dinner tables. Sometimes, however, after working digging potatoes, a bowl of home made tomato soup and a couple of crackers didn't quite fill one up. And the finest cuts of meat and freshest veggies, etc., went to the MOG & Co.

WG

[Ham]

Yeah..

but it still bothers me.. "were you guys born yesterday? don't ya know how to do.. "

It's like.. they were blaming inexperience or something like it.. on inexperience. On at least two occasions I saw the corps taking the heat for something beyond their control. Or simply didn't know how to do.

What were they thinking?

"if we merely beat the snot out of them, they will be better prepared next time.."

Edited February 2, 2008 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

The proportions on the last question are pretty significant.. eighteen out of twenty-three would not recommend the product to a friend or neighbor. Usually that's the "last but not least" question.. I'd imagine that's what a manfacturer would be most interested in.

[Ham]

Now it looks like roughly three out of four would not go back to the same restaurant..

[Ham]

Of course, eighty six percent of those whom actually went through the training won't recommend it to a dead dog..

[Twinky]

My best friend recently completed her training as a Methodist minister. From time to time during her training (of several years) she told me what she was doing/studying/undergoing. She had to produce esays from time to time and they spent a lot of time "thinking things through" in practical application. From time to time they were interviewed by a panel connected with the school (and perhaps the Methodist church) just to see where their thinking was at, and to offer guidance and direction. There was no attempt at teaching Greek or Hebrew or any other language.

It all seemed very wishy washy to me and not focused and not challenging enough. There wasn't much focus on outreach, more on taking care of the existing congregation's needs.

But she is strong in compassion and love for people.

I think I have a better overall concept of the scriptures and have read more thoroughly (but some of that is just "me", not just TWI taking me to unusual places in the OT) - but she has much more "heart" and love and compassion for people (part of that is her own personality).

Would I "buy" the Corps product again? Not this one. There are some good bits that I like to retain: enthusiasm and willingness to act. The worse bits I'm still trying to shed.

I might consider buying some other product from another organisation that wasn't so focused on its own self-righteousness.