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  1. twi is still run by old fogeys who seized power so they could have the money and the power, and won't let go. They're trying to figure out how to interest young people, since without young people, twi's fading into obscurity. It's an old people ministry that hasn't appealed to young folks since the 1980s, and that means, as their population ages out and some drop dead of old age and others leave, they don't have any replacements to pay 10% or more of their income because they are suckers to keep the luxuries coming in for the people at the top. So, twi now has a handful of old farts in power trying to convince young people that twi is actually relevant and meaningful. How are they doing that? They're reviving what worked in the 1970s with the baby boomers, in their own foolish youth. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
    5 points
  2. For years I'd told myself, "Someday I will talk about what happened while I was a member of The Way International. I will tell how Limb Coordinator Christoph Stoop threatened my life when the US Army JAG and CID offices were investigating an incident that occurred involving us and others at my secure Army microwave transmitter station during my assignment in Europe. Those events eventually ended with me being (oddly) medically discharged a full 18 months early, after being hospitalized three separate times for suicidal ideation. Furthermore, as the guilt and fear consumed me post-discharge, and after several suicide attempts, I found myself in a VA psych ward, which was the beginning of my recovery with the help of the VA. It was a cathartic experience. I became stronger during that lengthy and intensive treatment process. It was excruciatingly slow and painful – but in the end, I am more whole today than ever before thanks to the caring professionals at the VA. During that time, I was evaluated for multiple service-connected disabilities, including PTSD related to the experiences centered on TWI. I was rated permanently disabled and awarded 100% compensation. I’ve never felt money fixes anything but it has opened doors for educational opportunities and housing possibilities I would not have realized beforehand." Thanks for listening.
    5 points
  3. I feel that, thanks Waysider. I have more to share but it took 25 years to tell my story. I'm still basking in the relief of letting the first chapter out. It's been a marathon of a life. Thanks for seeing me.
    5 points
  4. Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia
    5 points
  5. As wierwille's twi grew in the 1970's, it made a quantum leap from the 5th corps to the 6th corps. From the numbers I remember, the 5th corps had 75 graduates.... whereas, the 6th corps started in Emporia with near 340 corps. It was a massive leap in numbers and could not be trained at headquarters, so the trustees searched for a location and took out a second mortgage/loan to acquire the Emporia campus. Along with this risk.... twi was ill-equipped to handle the free-rolling, rowdy individuals that were part of this 6th corps influx. Thus, heavy-handed measures came into play. One of my big contentions with corps training was that it was obsessed with obedience. Far too much emphasis was placed on following leadership..... rather than diligence or spiritual vigilance. Why the excessive need for obedience? Control. Corps coordinators made it a dominant priority to rein corps into a herd-mentality. In other words, twi FEARED individual thought (and questioning authority). It is far easier to rule by fear than to rule with love. At one point, they shut the corps program down with an ultimatum..... OBEY or LEAVE. Why couldn't they gather the body of corps together for an open dialogue? Why, even today, does twi give GSC the *silent treatment* after 20+ years? For the same reasons that wierwille highlighted certain verses of scripture in pfal and ignored others. He was working towards a manufactured outcome. Remember his little "story" in pfal when wierwille talks about "The sower and the seed?" And, now Maggie, wierwille asks, "What do you think the good seed represents?" And, Snowball Pete, "What do you think this good seed is?" Wierwille's point.....STOP THINKING about what you think it means and keep reading. Yet, time and again, wierwille injects his thinking into other verses as the class unfolds. It wasn't only the things twi highlighted thru the years that were relevant, but what things THEY DISMISSED and MEMORY-HOLED that spoke volumes. We came to pfal or corps training as individuals..... but graduated as a part of wierwille's "crack troops" or corps grads. Where in the scriptures does Jesus specifically call the men who followed him as "my disciples" in the possessive term? Yet, wierwille brands his corps as cattle.... "my corps." The corps letters were littered with this group-inclusive terminology. The Way International fear us. Why do they fear us? They fear we will have our own thoughts and speak up for ourselves. They fear we will become independent of their branding and no longer be subjugated to their will. They fear we will question their authority over us and relegated to the dustbin of history. They fear we will stand up for ourselves and start banding together. They fear we will become stronger and their influence will become weaker. They fear we will use our power against them as they fall further into irrelevance. They fear that we will awaken others to the deception that they perpetuate. They fear our free-thinking and tossing aside the burdens of fear and guilt. They fear that we are no longer captive to their authority. They fear we are independent. Philosopher Bertrand Russell quote (after devastation of WWI): Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth — more than ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless of the well-tried wisdom of the ages. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid…Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.
    5 points
  6. I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual assault, which is easier on the conscience, I guess. Hearing or reading about rape is supposed to make people uncomfortable. Euphemisms are anesthetic.
    4 points
  7. It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter. Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b] Example of misunderstanding clear communication: William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!" Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"
    4 points
  8. Thank you, chockfull. It's a very humbling experience. Whenever anyone trusts you, you feel honored, right? Today, I'm looking through old files and just found this little piece I wrote in 2008. It's background stuff for Undertow but didn't make it into the final manuscript. Like a whole lot of other pieces. For what it's worth: The myth is broken (on the reasearch team at Way HQ) My own myth, The Way’s dogma, became unworkable for me. It needed a blind faith to stay involved with it. I had blind faith no more. I no longer trusted vp’s integrity, which was shot for me after all those long Literals meetings. When I first sat down for my first meeting with the research team I was excited. Thrilled beyond belief that God would call me to such a day, time, and hour, as vpw would say. With an overwhelming sense of purpose, and an even bigger boost to my ego, I took on a persona of what I thought was biblical literariness. This biblical literariness is sort of like what I later experienced when, as a freshman at OSU, I would knit my eyebrows and hunch over a book on literary criticism by Charles Lamb in a library cubicle. I’d emerge hours later, disconnected from the flow of regular time. I had to reprogram my mind to where I was and what time it was. At The Way, I became a fraud, albeit a sincere one. I thought we were doing honest biblical research until I noticed how subjective it all was, how fraught with politics – [we were told] don’t reveal vp’s blunders, choose the least strident interpretation, make it apply to us today by using today’s words. It never crossed my mind that the writers of those N.T. books might have had their own interpretations of the words of Jesus. Indeed, since God authored each and every word, how could they have had such private slants? Politics of the first century was totally unknown to me. Note: The Trial of Socrates By I.F. Stone Pg. 16 "Xenophon and Plato may have “heard” Socrates differently on the subject [of kingship] in accordance with their own preconceptions, as disciples so often do.”
    4 points
  9. Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them? Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship. I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.
    4 points
  10. 4 points
  11. I dont see jeering and chatter I saw you completely shut down because you were confronted with uncomfortable truths that you are smart enough to recognize but deluded enough to rationalize them away. Then of course you turn to insults when you do snap out of it, and a very arrogant condescending tone and choice of words. The adversary is everywhere huh....
    4 points
  12. This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.
    4 points
  13. The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program. Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly. What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry. Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural. Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce. And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.
    4 points
  14. I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other Christians, rote mechanics in place of worship manifestations, conspiracy theory, lack of sexual boundaries (Schoenheit adultery paper), and wrong dividing of scripture to introduce spiritual abuse via the all powerful leadership. The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side. What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error. Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.
    4 points
  15. When a brown metal folding chair seems to be the only kind that feels comfortable so you tell your local Leadership that and act like its a good thing.... You just might be brainwashed. When you can't remember if it's your night to bring the coffee, or the cookies, so you just bring both because you know you'll get reproved if you bring the wrong thing... You just might be brainwashed. When the dial in number goes dead and there's no sound but you just stare at the speaker because you want to report to Leadership what you did and tell them "that's just how faithful" you really are... You just might be brainwashed. If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an asshole they really are... You just might be brainwashed. (and yes, they all actually happened)
    3 points
  16. I worked at a WOW Burger tent with Stevie Kay and a recent conversation had me look her up and we had a really nice conversation. But she doesn't seem to want to talk about it and I don't blame her. As for "is it different now?". Probably not enough to make it right. They cling to VPW in an L. Ron Hubbard retro history way. The entire thing is the house the foolish man built upon the sand. It was rotten for so long that being 'different now' is moot. The reason people don't leave is mostly fear based and that's not a good thing. They should make sure there's a bucket of condoms at the Young Adult Rock.
    3 points
  17. Indeed. Seems Adam-ness alone was incapable of generating much more than feral children. Re: the original topic of reasonable bases for rejecting written things as God-breathed… Most of us modern folk seem to have inherited a crippling underestimation of the value and impact of story AS story in the cultivation of wisdom, especially regarding ancient sacred texts. Both fantasy and literalism are easily debunked and mocked by mere objectivism, which then naively dismisses the very real vitality of myth. I find that ideas like James Fowler's Stages of Faith seem to offer helpful approaches to noticing and evaluating patterns in the different ways we interpret text and life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler Sometimes explicit, sometimes implicit, the presence and importance of stage-to-stage patterns of inner maturation (and lack thereof) seem ubiquitous throughout not only the modern Bible, but most of the world's sacred texts. Plant metaphors seem especially common as most direct and vivid examples of how inner life unfolds within (Unfortunately, it also seems, nothing stops almost anyone from mis-applying easily noticeable patterns of nature as a way to violate, manipulate, and exploit using plant terminology.). We can also see matching patterns in both interpretation and application in spite of the specific language set or mythology being used. The texts of all major world religions seem to have groups of adult folks interpreting and applying them from every phase of inner growth. Most worldview conflicts occur not only between similar stages of maturity (like fundamentalism versus fundamentalism), but also between different stages of immaturity (like fundamentalism versus empiricism versus de-construction). Tragically, perhaps, an almost wholesale rejection of the reality (and measurability) of such manifold patterns of inner maturity does seem like a quite natural consequence in societies where the very humiliations necessary for such growth are also seen as dangerous enemies. Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame determine how resistant we are to life’s gauntlets of wisdom. Like a flaming sword that keeps us from returning to our original nature.
    3 points
  18. Babylon Mystery Religion Thirteenth Tribe Harvard Classics (I have a set) Dale Carnegie - How To Win Friends and Influence People, The Art of Public Speaking, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living The Tracker - Tom Brown Jr Myth of the Six Million Luther the Reformer Foxs Book of Martyrs The Encyclopedia of Occult Sciences - from Adv Class list some cr@p on raising kids like training dogs. Many others on the “Corps Reading list”. I don’t have a copy of that any more wonder if any do.
    3 points
  19. Of Bickle: “There are many misrepresentations of my words and actions in these communications including statements that are out of context, greatly exaggerated, or blatantly false,” Bickle said in his statement. He also said he thought his past misdeeds were “dealt with and under the blood of Jesus.” Sounds not unlike "anything done in the love of God is okay," including assaulting other men's wives. Hmph. John 11:35.
    3 points
  20. Funnily enough, I was thinking of this only today. Thinking of the positive things I'd learned and done in TWI (and there definitely were some positives). Some were where confidence had been expressed in me where I'd never done a thing before. Some things were enjoyable - especially at the beginning of each year. And I met some awesome people (most of whom, regrettably, soon disappeared - whether voluntarily or pushed is a mystery), both within my Corps and on staff - mostly low-level staff, I have to say. However, there were many negatives. One of which was the destruction of any confidence of any kind that I had. The sense of oppression and fear that developed. The micromanagement. The face-meltings for using one's God-given common sense instead of checking with some "leader." The snitchiness and brown-nosing of some others of my Corps. The spying on each other, and the paranoia that developed from that. Now, I am part of a great church that genuinely and heartily serves its community. All the churches of all denominations work together in my small city to reach out to all groups of people. But nobody is bullied into doing anything; people want to participate and don't have to be asked. I only have to look at the awesome people in my church and associated churches within the benefice and within the community, to see something amazing and so diametrically opposite to anything in TWI that - well, it's joy and sunshine, contrasted with misery and drabness. I'm a little nostalgic for the friends I'd started to make, some of the fun we had, and the sometimes sense of cameraderie. But that's all. There is NO BLOODY WAY that I would or could endure the organizational thuggery now. Maybe that should be NO BLOODY WAY for emphasis.
    3 points
  21. Greasespotters know this already from experience, but cult "experts" tell us emotion--mainly fear of losing something or not getting something-- is the prime motivator in cult decision-making circumstances. i.e. I'd better learn God's Word if I want to know what God wants me to do, so to learn it, I should take this PFAL class. On and on and on and on the hamster wheel turns...
    3 points
  22. I wrote the following blog September 9, 2015 at https://charleneedge.com Phenomena known as mind-control or brainwashing have been written about by psychologists, sociologists, and many other “ists.” Now it’s my turn. Note: This post was written in 2015, about one year before I published my memoir, Undertow, about my cult experience. My name is Charlene, and I am a former cult-ist The mere fact I am a former cult follower makes some cult researchers consider my testimony as non-objective, which makes what I say at the very least suspect; at most, unreliable. Their suspicions include: I might have an axe to grind. I probably exaggerate. I let my emotions color the real nature of my experience. Okay. Maybe. But show me a 100% objective researcher. No human being can be 100% objective, but I’d like to think I can add valuable insight into how intense indoctrination hijacked the “real me” and in its place substituted a facsimile, at least at the beginning of my seventeen-year long involvement. This alteration of vulnerable youth is covered in the news nowadays. It’s called ISIS recruitment. The group that altered my identity was The Way International, a fundamentalist cult. Ever since I left in 1987 I’ve been examining what happened to me, what transpired during that era of my journey on the planet. What did it all mean? I’ve written an entire book about this, a memoir I’ve finished and yet to have published. He lost me to a cult Doing research about how the indoctrination that I underwent changed my identity, I asked one person still alive who witnessed the dramatic change in me up-close—my former boyfriend, Rob Ruff. We were together the summer of 1970, just before I went off to college where the cult, founded by Victor Paul Wierwille, recruited me. I broke up with Rob because he would not adopt my cult’s beliefs. Much later, Rob worked in television and became a senior news producer for a major network. He is well acquainted with interviewing people and portraying their stories. We’ve had dinner twice within the last three years and discussed those old times. Here are a few snippets from Rob’s account of me before The Way’s influence and then after I spent three months on The Way’s Ohio farm in 1971 for a 24/7 summer school program of indoctrination into beliefs claimed to be “the accuracy of the Word,” the Bible. Rob writes: “The Charlene I remembered pre-Wierwille was an engaging, bright-eyed, flexible teenager who fit in seamlessly with all around her. There was nothing rigid, obstinate, single or closed-minded about her. It was clear there was a bright bulb inside that was reflected in a personality that fit well within the boundaries of ‘normal.'” “…That August [after Charlene went to Way summer school] our reunion started out well enough, but once religion and The Way took center stage everything changed. You seemed to erect an invisible wall of silence and detachment from the subject at hand—and from me. It was as though someone had taken over your body and transformed you into a single-minded person incapable of normal or ever any interaction with anyone except fellow believers…I was speaking to a wall…the brightness and life that I remembered was replaced by detachment.” He wrote more about this that I plan to use in a longer article, but for now, in light of recent news stories about the power of ISIS to brainwash vulnerable and disaffected young men and women around the world, I felt it was important to address this subject. It is real. It happened to me. Mind control happens Brainwashing happens out of the mainstream, but powerful sociopaths can and do grab a person’s mind when that mind is susceptible and yearning for certainty in a confusing world. Usually the powerful influencer makes appealing promises, like rewards in the afterlife. We see ISIS terrorists on T.V. almost every day grabbing recruits and turning them into killing machines. And we don’t have to look far into the past to find Hitler’s Youth amassing. I’ve been to Germany. I saw the Dachau ovens. We’ve promised ourselves, NEVER AGAIN. The question is: how well are we paying attention to that promise? Cults destroy cherished ideals In his New York Times article, ISIS and the Curse of The Iraq War, John Cassidy asks, “What explains the reluctance among politicians to consider confronting, head-on, a movement that has been intent on eradicating ideals that the United States and its allies hold dear?” Are we too overwhelmed by and under-educated about ISIS to dismantle it? I just don’t know. I do know that there are destructive cults in our own country that eradicate ideals, like free speech and respect for all civil rights that we hold dear. They don’t go around beheading in the name of God like ISIS, but predatory cults can still form non-profit organizations and can get away with unsavory, even criminal acts. Like changing people’s identity. Until someone blows the whistle. Where are the whistles? By: Steven Depolo How do we deal with the single-mindedness I had that Rob described? I exhibited it AFTER I’d been under the influence of a charismatic authoritarian. Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of The Way, was so powerful that he led me to abandon ideals my country holds dear, like freedom of speech and the democratic value of debating ideas, not insisting you have all the right ones. In the cult, I spoke only “the Word” as defined by Wierwille. I derided anyone who did not believe as I did. I de-valued them. I hurt, abandoned, and confused my friends and family. What’s good about that? The good news is that mind control can be undone, but it is not easy. A person has to wake up. This occurs in different ways for different people, if it does at all. Some people never leave cults. For the most part, education was the catalyst that helped me regain some semblance of my old self. After I escaped the cult, I finished my college education and made new friends—ones who loved me for who I was. Identity theft by any destructive cult is something to worry about, something to derail whenever possible. It is real, but it is not always permanent. Returning to interests, hobbies, and people you love helps recovery. For people born into a cult, the task is harder. There is no pre-cult identity to regain. I know some of those people and believe me, they are scarred in ways I am not. I’m grateful I retrieved some sense of the person I was pre-Way (only wiser, I hope!) I’ve tried to get that bright bulb burning again. Many kind and loving people have helped me do it. So has education. Light dispels darkness. Knowledge is power. Critical thinking is essential. Love mends minds. Rob writes: “And by the way, the person I know today in no way resembles the one from 1971!” Two helpful books Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeline Tobias Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan ***** You are invited to subscribe to these posts by entering your email address in one of the Subscribe to Updates boxes at this site. I never will sell or share your email address. See you next time.
    3 points
  23. Again today another former follower of TWI contacted me through my website. A woman. A woman whose story of abuse by Way leaders broke my heart. She is one of numerous people, men and women, who have sent me similar messages since Undertow was published nearly seven (7) years ago. I carry these stories are in my heart, and I honor those people's courage to keep on living despite grave wounds. If you are reading this and are one of these people whose story I now know in part, be assured that I admire you and cheer you on in your journey of healing.
    3 points
  24. The real crux of the issue is offshoots using this garbage as an excuse to keep the cash cow running and preservinvg their jobs. Of course offshoots and anyone still idolizing false prophet wierwille demand forgiveness from the victims...but you know what? Thats deplorable to expect a victim to extend forgiveness when the perpetrators dont ask for it or repent of their jaded actions. So shame on anyone putting this garbage on people who have been wronged as they arent the ones who need to ask for or extend forgiveness unless repentance occurs and perpetrators make amends...which has never happened to my knowledge when it comes to all things wierwille. BTW - God himself doesnt forgive without repentance...we are to be followers of God. What we are told to do is give place to wrath and let God settle the account, which he will.
    3 points
  25. I was never in TWI. I can't relate to a direct experience with victor or loy or the corporation. I was able to discern within the first 12 minutes of PFAL that victor was complete fraud. However, my life was adversely affected by people who were CORPS in the late 70s or early 80s and by people whose worldview, moral compass and "spiritual maturity" conformed to victor's PI doctrines It seems to me, from reading and listening to victor's own words, and from the witness testimonies here, belief mattered more to vic and Loy than knowing. Victor didn't really know that he knew that he knew. That was just another distracting pithy piece of bullshonta. Victor didn't know much. He believed much. What he knew was that if he could get others to believe him, he could make a materially successful life for himself. And he was right. He knew that that he knew that he knew if anyone ever found out the truth, he would be done. That was his greatest fear - being found out for who and what he really was. He had to be right, he couldn't be wrong, lest his supply dry up. Hence, M&A every and any liability potentially exposing him. What did victor know? Exactly what he was doing.
    3 points
  26. Another survivor testimony, this one from a 2nd gen. Way org. then offshoot survivor: https://m.soundcloud.com/indoctrinationshow/mark-avoid-w-em-thomas?ref=clipboard&p=i&c=0&si=10E753EC055A4873A9843355FD563C52
    3 points
  27. Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups. They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry. It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”. These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics. Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue. In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual. It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary. The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable. Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question. I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades. But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time. Truth comes out. Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity. Want to be a TWI leader? Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.
    3 points
  28. Mike you want to get away from all the hate? Well a camera offers a great analogy. What you focus on is what you become. Vol 1 Chap 1 of the Blue Book - your substitution for the New Testament. I thought you were a paradigm of living the collaterals. I mean they are what you worship. Are you slipping here?
    3 points
  29. You remember me telling you the speaker is responsible for their communication? Well, another rule is the purpose of the communication is the response. If you're getting chatter and jeering, that must be what you want. Otherwise, you'd change the communication. As you haven't changed the communication, you must enjoy chatter and jeering. Negative attention is better than no attention at all, right?
    3 points
  30. The word of God is the will of God. Hmm, the way this thread has gone is all about the "written word" - the Bible. (And in Mike's case, the collaterals.) Let's not forget this: John 1:14 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It reads: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” So if we look at Jesus Christ, the one and only son, who was full of grace and truth, do the actions of this "word" differ from the written principles of the Bible? The Woman Caught in Adultery John 8:28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29 He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” Shouldn't Jesus have obeyed the written word and thrown a stone at the woman? What about when he touched lepers, a strict no-no in the written word? Jesus responds (Mt 8:3) to the approaching leper (Mt 8:2) - not by resenting him or scaring him away, but by stretching out his hand towards him. As the leper kneels before him, Jesus touches him. Instead of warning Jesus of his uncleanness, the leper makes a statement of faith and begs for healing. So if you're going to adhere to a belief that "The word of God is the will of God" then you need to reconcile the dichotomy between what the written word says, and some of the actions of the word in manifestation in the form of Jesus Christ. Fits like a hand in a --- in a what? A mitten? A pocket? A paper bag? Or was Jesus wrong? "Off the word"? Just exactly what word of God is the will of God?
    3 points
  31. People used to tell me that the birth of my son would change my life. However they described it, however they explained it, that was not it. Their words were insufficient. You are a mother. You might know what I'm talking about. It is something that cannot be explained or contained conceptually. It is indescribable, is it not? We are so eager to have someone else provide answers. We want someone else to see it for us. We want someone else to tell us what to do. No one can see it for you. Trust. But don't trust me.
    3 points
  32. That’s an amazing cult leader verse especially when you take it out of context. I am sure Creflo Dollar prays the same prayer that all those that he is fleecing will receive his words not as those of a snake oil salesman but instead receiving them like it was God speaking to them directly. And not questioning those words they will send in their ABS. VPWs personality had flaws but his research had more. Anyone with a reasonable logic process who watches Dr. Juedes video which is the topic of this thread probably will not accept VPWs words like they are coming directly from God. Sure just suspend any critical thinking processes you have and immediately accept in these words like they were divine direction. However Paul’s travels and teachings to Thessalonika were vastly different than Plaffy. Instead of plagiarizing Peters teachings and presenting them as his own he developed his own path and teachings to the Gentiles. He took the path Peter did not take instead of teaching to the same audience and trying to steal followers. There were no Great Principle charts or excellor sessions. There was no Way Ambassador program patterned after the Mormons where new converts and teenagers do the work to promulgate the group. There was No Corps with annual “placements” a thumb of control over all leadership.
    3 points
  33. Along these lines, for a while on my blog I wrote posts in a series called "Fundamentalist Fridays." Here's one about Christian Nationalism, which has become more front-and-center in this country than when I wrote this post in 2017. Enjoy! christian nationalism.pdf
    3 points
  34. In retrospect all of the warning signs were there from the beginning regarding VPW's predatorial and sordid nature.
    3 points
  35. I think about this everyday, because it is very real for me and my son. I challenge him. Anything he says that I discern as regurgitating the thoughts or dogma of peers, deluded adults, media, wierwillian stupidity... I ask him questions, I challenge him, I challenge the dogma, the opinions. I don't necessarily provide answers, because he gets enough "answers." The questions are what others are NOT "teaching" him. Even if I agree with an idea he regurgitates, I ask him, "Says who? How did they come up with that? How do they know? How do YOU know? Why is the opposite false? Why? How?..." I try to challenge him to think about ideas, their source, what they mean. He sees and hears so much of WHAT. What to believe, to think, to know. So I challenge him to think about WHY he should accept any of it. I don't always tell him outright WHAT to think, rather, I try to help him HOW to think. I try. Occasionally, he will text me something he sees on social media. And he will simply ask, "BS?" This always warms my heart. He is 13. I always provide an answer. I haven't yet taught him how to correctly spell beleeef, but one day I will.
    3 points
  36. Proving a negative is a little more xhallenging than affirming a known fact. Does anyone have any evidence aside from DWBH's non-credible claim that DWBH's father was a linguist fluent in 13 languages? Because... hand me my megaphone: I AM CALLING OUT HIS SIT STORY AS A BULLS HIT LIE. Linguist my ass. Prove. Your. Claim.
    3 points
  37. Ah yes the Mystery! This is that concept where Jews and Gentiles are together with one Lord and Savior and together in one body of Christ. Except - 1. Did they take “the class” yet? If not they need to to really really be a part 2. All the heads of denominations are seed of the serpent and devil spirit influenced so don’t go to any of their churches, collaborate with them, have joint ministries with them, give them any money, or do anything other than witness to them the greatness of this “class” 3. If you are in debt you aren’t really really ready to fully fellowship with them 4. Any of their “causes” are second rate causes where the first rate cause is giving to TWI to support Craig’s pension, insurance payoffs from misconduct, Rosalie’s housekeepers, molten metal statues of VP for desks and lobbies, and keeping Gunnison open for like 100 people a year to visit but make sure “bless patrol “ is fully staffed to keep others including Christians out. 5. The Ways investment arm - like the Mormon church they make money from your money. 6. Militant inspired leadership training - the “Way Corps” 7. Weekly phone hookups where you dress up and play audience 8. Highly controlled “manifestations” where they are the only people who do them accurately. 9. The law of believing that works for saint and sinner alike except the saints get more blame for “not believing” enough. 10. Conspiracy theory at the Advanced Class 11. A top leadership body that listens to and is accountable to nobody on earth. Isn’t it great that we now have the Great Mystery revealed in our day and time? /s (sarcasm flag) The biggest mystery to me is why I put up with all that bullshonta for multiple decades of my life. Experience a release from that mystery and vote with your feet. Then the mystery of the scriptures with all nations and former persuasions being united in one body of Christ will become actually alive to you.
    3 points
  38. 144. following the "principles" of PFAL leads to a life of discontentment. wierwille uses this proof-text to give reason for chasing after material abundance: New King James Version The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly… John 10:10 HOWEVER The author of Ecclesiastes said one who pursues abundance will never be satisfied. New King James Version He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver; Nor he who loves abundance, with increase. This also is vanity…. Ecclesiastes 5:10 Perhaps David in the OT already clarified the abundance Jesus would bring: The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing… Psalm 23:1 NIV
    3 points
  39. No problem Annio. Grieving such a loss over what you missed out on in your relationship with Christ because of twi will be according to your own personal timetable. Check back in if and when you want - the best thing I learned from being on GSC was that I'm not alone and neither are you.
    3 points
  40. A) On lots of threads, lots of ex-twi have talked about how much better their lives have been since twi, and sometimes about how God's given them results since twi. Mike has missed all of that- probably for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman. B) I don't need specifics of Mike's testimony, since he's already given me the biggest detail. In spite of a recent attempt to spin-doctor it, Mike started a thread with the goal of answering the question "Why don't we see miracles and lots of prayers answered anymore?" If it was a thread where the opening post was "actually, we see EVEN MORE", then that would be different. So, no, he's got squat. C) Mike's been trying to claim that Session 1 of pfal- and the books adapting it- didn't have vpw bring up material abundance and promise material abundance... despite the fact that they do, very obviously and blatantly. Someone's looking to LOWER THE BAR OF EXPECTATIONS. So, what's the complete picture? Lots of people have happiness, some prosperity, and answers to prayers- and Mike insists they don't. Mike's got little of those- and insists on getting cagey in discussing them. Where others have freely given testimony, he's said we have to earn his testimony- which, again, means he's got squat, otherwise he's be waving it around as proof his doctrine isn't all platitudes, smoke and mirrors. Mike's trying to say his alleged "pfal" doctrine isn't supposed to guarantee MATERIAL ABUNDANCE (in spite of insinuating exactly that all over Session 1)- because Mike doesn't have it and can't guarantee it despite himself. What's next- the holy Amway?
    3 points
  41. I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have been so many testimonies from posters of how their lives have improved spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. after leaving and recovering from twi. Either you are skipping over them because they make you feel too uncomfortable or you can't allow yourself to believe they're true - and maybe there are other unknown reasons for your doing so. The point is that although you may miss the impact of their testimonies, many others like myself, did not.
    3 points
  42. Posted April 29, 2020 by WordWolf Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself. The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm. Word Wolf posted this on April 29, 2020 All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.
    3 points
  43. Mike: "You are too much the stickler on exact vocabulary." Whatever happened to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision", and "God has a purpose for everything He says, how He says it, to whom He says it..." vpw pushed being a stickler on exact vocabulary. Of course, since he was wrong, we don't have to obsess, but since you insist he was right, you're supposed to agree with him and push FOR being a stickler.
    3 points
  44. Some theoretical PFALists suggest Adam and Eve were on a tight budget: Eve couldn’t afford a wedding gown. Adam couldn’t afford a tux. They saved money by nixing the church for a Garden Wedding. Adam, being a do-it-yourselfer, officiated the ceremony himself. Eve so wanted a traditional wedding, so they settled on having the bride’s father walk her down the aisle. They cheaped out on wedding reception centerpieces, by hiring a British produce vendor named Sir Pent to provide half-priced fruit bowls. They nixed the fancy double doors for one emergency exit-only door and as fate would have it, they accidentally got locked out of their own Garden Wedding Reception.
    3 points
  45. Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Well, I mean. You did ask, right?
    3 points
  46. So first of all I do not automatically accept all the Wierwillisms bound up in your explanation as they don’t make logical sense. John 3:34 talks about in many Bible versions spirit without limit. There are 2 ways to look at it. One is that Holy Spirit is like a cake recipe and God added one cup of flour in the OT but the NT gets 2 cups of flour. With God not being a respecter of persons and me not being brainwashed by Great Pranciple charts there is another apparent interpretation even within Wierwille constraints. Without limit. What was the limit? In the OT it was conditionally based where it could depart from a person. In the NT we are born again of incorruptible seed. So it doesn’t depart. However Jesus refers to those with seared conscience who seemingly no longer see whatever messages upon the heart the Holy Spirit is trying to work there due to a deep thickening of the veins from a high fat Pharisee diet and practice. Then we get into the real meat of the relationship with Christ and that draws a distinction. Those who magnify the “law of believing” and those who magnify the Christ relationship. The law of believing folks have to resort to smacking that dashboard Jesus and wondering why it doesn’t talk back. The others have a prayer life actually. So my conclusion comes back to the limits being introduced by the false doctrine of PFAL and limits imposed by cults that explain why their followers never win in life. With an unlimited power source the self restricting budget experts who study collaterals for 20 years and no other free thought will predictably have a limited budget on how much God is able to help them. Breaking free of the false doctrine however places the Christian in a place where the truth can set us free.
    3 points
  47. What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power, authority, and influence over our lives. It was our savior in that it saved us from all the wrongly divided word taught in every other church known to mankind since the first century. One more just for the of it - pfal was the way, the truth and the life. The way because of the irony of it being taught by "the way ministry," the truth because of God's 1942 promise to vp and the life because after all, it did promise us a more than abundant life. Now why would anyone want or need an everlasting relationship with Christ after being brainwashed to believe in "the class?
    3 points
  48. 131. You can’t just “take the class” once and be done with it. It becomes an endless repeat loop throughout all life. a. Take the class b. Serve on class crew c. Get everyone you know to “take the class” d. Go out on an ambassador one year program to spend a year convincing others to “take the class”. e. Enter a “lifetime of Christian service” program centered around running the class multiple times per year. f. In retirement as “emeritus” help others by serving on class crew and “undershepherding” others until you die. Anything on endless loop repeat sucks.
    3 points
  49. I think I see why God is “on a budget”. Pretty much all of the discussion centers around the warm fuzzy idea of “having a package” that helps you live as a disciple or mature Christian. This supposed “package” is Plaffy and int Plaffy and the secretary notes bound into 5 volumes plus the stolen RHST and PLAF books. This “package” is supposed to help “new people” that we are working with and somehow without the “package” we are unable to minister to new Christians. The reality is the “package” is the same kind of deal they sell in Scientology with the reprinted works of LRH. An all inclusive ticket to “enlightenment” of some kind called different things - going clear, true discipleship, being “an ambassador” a really prestigious title for a youngster. The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages. But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration. All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”. Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”. I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life. The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach. I mean the whole gist of this conversation is a golden calf apologist trying to convince others that since the calf is simple and easy to understand you should worship the calf. Or the VP statue. Or the VP “package” which basically focuses the attention on the content and not the “package” of the author himself as that is a fail.
    3 points
  50. Political affiliations embrace religious ideology. Religious ideology embraces political affiliations. Six of one, half dozen of the other.
    3 points
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