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I forget who it was, perhaps Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, but at any rate this was a person who was high high society and known for etiquette, so it was probably one of the two. This is a story my mom impressed upon me: This individual was hosting a banquet and a famous person was the guest of honor, a person of humble origins who did not know the finer points of etiquette. At any rate, this guest, after the first course has been served, picked up his napkin and carefully tied it around his neck!!!!!! The hostess, without raising an eyebrow, did the exact same thing and so did the other guests. That's manners, folks. Oh, and class, too. wG

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

Dear Watered Garden, That sums much of it very nicely for me. And in my former splinter group I was amazed at the docile and content nature that the followers were expected to have while top leadership was encouraged to preform base brutality against many hearts and minds. Your sharing reminds me of the saying "Let not the strong please themselves unto their own edification." And leadership brutality and politicing lacks much of the grace and class that true etiquette contains.

LOL. Yep. Definately was not pleasant or sress free. So much pressure, and God forbid leadership should sit at your table....

Precisely! The purpose of etiquette is to make an event a pleasant and stress free experience for the participants. What we did in TWI, with all our precise table manners, etc., was not etiquette, it was ritualized behavior.

I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants a better understanding of the complexities of abuse. edit: You can order it through Amazon by going to the home page here.

Manners. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I saw a lot of Way believers become rude about manners. Ripping someone to shreads over a slight mis step with words, or not wiping a table properly etc....All in the name of ettiquette or being decent and in order. Some guy once flipped out and yelled at me because I passed the wrong plate to someone. I had violated ettiquette by doing that. Ironic really. He was more rude and inconsiderate by yelling at me in front of everyone than what I did by passing the wrong plate. I was humiliated at the time, but now I just think he was weird.

I could be wrong, but the website looks like the aftermath of some kind of civil war..

Yep.. all the while the "elders" are in some smoke filled back room, downing shots of Drambuie and Schnapps, eating pickled pigs feet, and planning to take over the world.. what is "interesting".. I looked over cff's website.. there is a noticable absence of any link or reference to sowers and such.. and the fellow-laborers page has practically no reference to v2p2. Their history of him leaves him running a "twig" in his old home town.. methinks MAYBE somebody "woke up" in the organization?

Thanks RumRunner! Of course I want to - - that's all the fun is being able to play these things right away. I'm not sure which one you saw....so juist for giggles sake.....please click on the last one I did....the one below here where I did it correctly - - because that's the other one that I found so funny.

Thanks Krys - BTW when you do an embed from youtube - go to edit options (on GSC) and select HTML auto line break mode - well if you want to.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Please turn your volume up a little and listen carefully :) sorry - - - I need a do-ever

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

Didn't an invasion like this happen in Australia once? Farmers didn't til the fields or something . . . Perhaps a foreshadow of things to come . . .

I don't know if twi is worth talking about or not. Talking about them doesn't make them go away. Sometimes talking about it diffuses the pressure. Sometimes it doesn't.

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Thanks so much, all of you. :)

I finished the book. although my therapist was concerned about me choosing this time to read it, I think it was a very positive experience. I wasn't around when vpw was prez, but the things she described were carried through and affected the entire organization. the methods used on her were also used on me, to the point I also felt trapped and confused. I could very much relate to her inward battle. also, she wraps up the book with some incredibly useful advice for anyone making the choice to get away. choosing a therapist or legal counsel with no knowledge of the cult hive mind can indeed make things so much more difficult. I was ashamed to bring up my cult involvement at first when looking for mental and legal help, but I've learned that I have to make sure the people I hire to help me are able to deal with that part of my reality.

thank you sweet potato i just apologized to you on another thread i feel bad

that's a good thing, excie!

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way i am so sick and tired of the validation thing even though it's what i lived for here (waydale etc) i'm actually starting to believe myself no matter who says what ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha thanks

thank you

ok ok, so we'll say it's a work of fiction based on a true story with all the "negative" parts left out, unlike Kristin's book seriously though, my point was they can't have it both ways.

Maybe "Rita" should click on this link.

I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago. hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult. the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought. I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.

reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i) too used to obeying father figures, i guess although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense but always doubting myself

Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).

I understand that was the official version. The term was used for many purposes, to flatter, cajole, and also to threaten, reprove, and as a "put-down." WG

WG, I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence. It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.

How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it? I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did. WG

Keith, my husband was a college WOW in Bloomington in the mid 70s. Others: I haven't read the book and probably won't. It seems as if most of the major abuse took place in the upper ranks - not that the lower ranks didn't try. Although it seemed to me that the closer you were to a limb, the more structured things were. When we went from living down the street from limb headquarters to over an hour away, things lightened up considerably. I talked to our corp grad branch leaders about the sex thing and they said they were unaware of what was going on with leadership. As far as the teaching about sex in the corp was that penetration wasn't allowed, but other means of pleasuring one another were ok. I thought it was a pretty fine line, but since I wasn't so "spiritually developed", I just called it wrong.

i guess i'm going to have to get that book thank you sunesis and evan for your recent posts and you know what else i felt weird from the veryfruckingbeginning but i still bought it in a way jesus

Evan!...Haven't seen you in awhile...How are you my friend? ...Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I know someone who left Bloomington at that time, but you can't be him if you left then, because he came up to Indy where i saw a lot of him during my apprentice corps year. I don't think you are belittling Kristen at all. Whether it was God working in her heart, or her better judgement, it was eclipsed by having to do what God says, which in her case was what the man of God said. From her point of view, saying no to staying in, or specifically to what she was told to do, was walking away from God.

hi, keith vp weirwille himself said "things are to be used. people are to be loved." but he did not practice that sad

I had a little more reflection on this point, which I just expressed on the 8th corps thread. If we think about how someone nearby was hurting while we were having fun, self restraint wont be needed, or at least not as much.

An overdue response here; I think Oldies has a valid point, and that is what I was thinking of when I talked about Kristen's book not being a lecture. I really can't fault her in the least for the comment Oldies quoted.

I think that is because she did as good a job as anyone possibly could of writing as she was feeling at the time all this was happening, and not as if she were looking back so many years later. I wrote a response on her blog that I could not call her a great writer ( or say she isn't a great writer) because I am nowhere near being a literary critic. But I may have to amend that thought a little, because such a style of writing...an honest style...obviously helps the reader live someone's biographical experience. I might add...and I think I mentioned this on some other thread...that I did have a minor lesson in "loosening up" in the 8th corps that was a little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen went through could have happened.

I loved Kristen's writing style. I felt as if I were with her through all of her tragedies. She wrote just like most of us were trained to think. I loved/hated those parts because I relived a major part of my life through her writing. " The assurance I seek is in the Word. I try to feel it. I try to grasp the meaning until my mind aches.", pg 109. How many of us have done that? Trying so hard to make things make sense, but of course, don't rely on our 5 senses. blah blah blah.... Kristen, I am so saddened that you endured all the physical, mental, and sexual abuse throughout most of your life. BUT I am very thankful that you were able to get professional help. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for telling it like it hasn't been told since the first century. Sorry, I just had to say that. Seriously, people need to know the truth. If you help just one person see VP (and others) for the lowlife that he was, I think it is worth it. I have said in other threads that TWI did not ruin my life, and it didn't. I made several decisions (based on TWI teachings or recommendations) that I have lived to regret however. I am so sorry for what so MANY precious Christians and others suffered at the hands of The Way International organization's bigwigs and littlewigs, mog wannabees, etc..

Like a needle playing a record. The record turns and the needle just stays in the groove. Too bad twi's record had sat out in the sun too long... lots of skips and repeats. Sunesis, being outside the nine dots is preferable anyway.

Hi Everyone, Got The book on Friday, read it through the weekend. Amazing book. Kris did a great job of writing her story......I could relate to a number of things in the book, abuse, the mindset, behavior of others and myself. It now seems like eons ago that all this happened, and the book brought it all back very vividly. When I got involved with TWI, I was a very "Broken" person, spiritually, physically and emotionally. Looking for God because I knew from my childhood He truly was the answer and I had really ruined my life with alcohol, and I was very suicidal. I didn't want to accept the God of the church, I wanted something "different". I got "different"..........I got what I was looking for in The Way----or so I thought. A family! And God became very "real" to me. There were red flags along the way....things I didn't understand....well, Just like what Kris talks about in the book. Not understanding teachings, feeling like you weren't spiritual enough etc. Trying to "sell out" to the Word, but never feeling like I ever did. My drinking did decrease alot, though I was still drinking some. Feeling like I wasn't feeling....And What I was losing was "Me". Everything that was Me was either repressed or disposed of. Red Flags increased, but there was always a "reason" to ignore them. Took me to where Kris was.....so confused, and just not mentally stable at all. What I found MOST interesting was at the end, when she talks about the exit counselors etc. But She compares leaving TWI to Leaving alcohol. And talks about as with Alcohol, you can't really work on issues until you put it down. And it's the same thing with TWI, cult addiction I believe she calls it (not sure if those were the exact words). I work with people who are trained counselors and they say the same thing, cults are addictive. Being that I a recovering addict, I can see that very plainly. I switched addictions...alcohol to the cult addiction. It made me feel different in the beginning.....changed my moods......Got that "high" feeling going to advances and classes. I was addicted to it. Whenever I felt stagnant, I just went to an event to get that feeling again. But as in all addiction, it turns on you......Good in the beginning......but leads to down a road of destruction. It was hard for me to understand cult addiction, but having her talk about it confirmed to me what it was to me. Hard to accept, because I didn't want to accept the truth.....I wanted it to be "all Good", and Be the family I never had, and to fix me. It was a total illusion......The truth is hard to accept, but the truth, as it has been said, will set you free. She did an awesome job and I think that she was the one to write the book.....A groovy Christian from NY......Heard about that right off the bat when I got involved......and to hear someone who was there in the beginning relay her story....I thought it held a lot of credibility. It brought healing and insight to my life. If you haven't read it....Get it! Thanks Kris!!

So, do you think that VP et al were all back at Hdqtrs saying "let's target all those hippies because they are out of bounds with sex and drugs" they will be easy to draw into the fold? Was it a conscious effort on their part? Or do you think it was us hippies who were seeing that we were out of bounds and needed the structure (as well as father figure in many cases). I suppose it was a combination of the two. We were all at the right(wrong) place a the right (wrong?) time!!

Sunesis Said: (QUOTE):We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs. I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler. What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching. WOW - after 35 years it's starting to make sense. Just A WEEK AGO a friend asked me why I think I wound up in a cult. It's been something I've been trying to figure out since 1986 when I left. My family thought it was because I broke up with a boyfriend of 4 years - I knew that wasn't the reason. I was the "older sibling" going into the City, etc., raising myself and my siblings. I was a "groovy christian" from the Bronx - about 25 miles south of Rye in 1973 - just missing the Dr. driving into town on his Harley days (which, of course, we all heard about - it was a legend) Thanks Sunesis - I believe that's it - the father figure that was missing. My father was not an alcoholic (although my mother probably was in those days, it was hard to tell - with the scotch on the rocks every night. It was "normal". BUT my father was Manic Depressive, hospitalized about every 3 years. My sister was Schizophrenic and committed suicide in 1967 at the age of 18 (I was 17 at the time). I was always SO proud of myself for NOT being mentally Ill in this mentally ill family so denied for a very LONG time that the Way was a cult, as that would make me less on a strong, independent person to join something like that. Well, we all know how that happens because we all have our own stories and reasons. But I think I'm finally seeing that I really needed that father figure or even more so, stabalization and focus in my life at that time. And what do you know.....there was "The Way". Thanks Kristen for the help and insight you are givng to the rest of us, along with(I'm sure) you're own healing.

Dear All, A friend who is an elder in the same (Presbyterian) church I go to is reading Losing the Way. Here is what she says, She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father. ¿Tienes esperanza? Quiero por usted y EEUU, la esperanza. In hope, Juan

This sounds like the proverbial 'any kind of attention is better than none at all'. I have been told that sometimes the abused allow it to continue even when they know it is wrong because they believe that the person abusing them is really doing it out of love. Another aspect is when the abuser convinces the abused that they are the ones causing the problem. I cant tell you how many times I have heard a battered wife say 'I deserved it'. Of course I've kind of dropped into the realm of physical abuse as well as mental, but I would think that on some level sexual abuse is similar. I have heard some people use the defense that 'she asked for it by the way she was dressed' or worse 'she asked for it by being so pretty'. I heard a father say that about his thirteen year old daughter once.

I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick). Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine. I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...

It's been 20 years this month that I was sent to Long Island as a WOW and here I still am!