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Showing content with the highest reputation on 04/26/2020 in all areas

  1. Waxit: You point out you have had to explain the same verse several times and want to not dwell on it again. Fair Enough. In the same vain, why do you ignore responding numerous times to the following verses? Colossians 2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Romans 14:5-6: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. Galatians 4:9-10: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 0 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. On the surface It would appear honoring and keeping the Sabbath is not only not required, but will force you back into bondage. Clearly, we do not to be in bondage. Stayed Too Long
    2 points
  2. Oh, and Waxit's source for he cut-and-paste on the Noahide Laws was from here: http://www.ccg.org/weblibs/study-papers/p148.html?craw=y http://www.ccg.org/english/S/a1.html Hm. Looks like Waxit's entire POV reads like this group's website, especially their Statement of Beliefs.. including judging us in keeping of New Moons and Sabbaths, and in respect of holy days.
    2 points
  3. Most of the Christian world does not observe the Sabbath on Saturday. Why not get your message out to the rest of them, instead of butting heads with a few at GSC who you know have rejected your logic? Visit the local Catholic Church to see if you can get the priest to close their doors on Sunday, and have mass exclusively on Saturday. If he won’t, keep going back week after week, showing him the Word, and start throwing insults st him. Next hit the LDS church down the street. Pull all the missionaries aside and see if they will tell Salt Lake City to finally worship when God wants them too. Don’t forget the Baptists. Do you think they will let you thump on their pulpit demanding the observance of the Sabbath on Saturday? I doubt if you will have much success, and will soon be back at GSC trying to wrangle your dogma down our throats again.
    2 points
  4. Hey STL, I appreciate your posts. It now occurs to me that this thread presents a poignant case study in critical thinking... as well as demonstrating very well that there is safety in a multitude of counselors.
    1 point
  5. Now, now..... Let's give Waxit the benefit of the doubt (again.) Waxit may not understand the difference between dumping a link and assigning homework with including your source. A) This is not recommended on the GSC.... "The answer to your questions is on www dot website A dot com, and if you want to understand, you'll read there." That's not recommended because it's not DISCUSSION. It's dumping a link and avoiding discussion. It's assigning homework and pretending you discussed something. B) This is recommended on the GSC... " The answer to your question is explored fully on www dot specific page dot org, and I'll post the important point here right now...." That's supplying your source, which is recommended for a number of reasons, while still having the discussion here in the discussion forum. C) This is not recommended on the GSC... " I have a source for my comments, but I'm going to keep it my little secret." People can't see if you're representing it fairly, they can't check the context, and they can't vet the sources. They know you said it, and you have no proof you didn't originate it. Someone once accidentally gave a bad misquote. vpw never played professional basketball. What he did was INSINUATE (suggest, make leading comments, imply) that he played for the Sheboygan Redskins. His actual words in TW-LiL were that he was "involved with the Sheboygan Redskins." That's incredibly vague. Was he their designated driver? Was he their waterboy? Did he work part-time where they practiced? Did he buy them ice cream when they won games? The idea was that people would THINK he played for them without him actually SAYING he did. It was deceptive and dishonest, but legal (although unethical and immoral.) Someone later said they had documentation he DID play for them. He didn't provide the link, but said to look for a search result for "Sheboygan Redskins in the NBL," When I went there, I found an article that claimed vpw had played for the Sheboygan Redskins. I checked their source. It was the single comment in TW-LiL. So, the proof his comment in TW-LiL meant that he played for the team was true was the comment he made in TW-LiL. That's NOT how documentation works, of course. But without posting the link, the poster ACCIDENTALLY failed to document, and led people to believe vpw didn't deceive people about that (although he actually decieved them.) So, yes, post the link- but only in front of your actual discussion of that point. BTW, just cut-and-paste of what they said without your own words isn't "discussing", either.
    1 point
  6. @ Mark: I think it was considered "day" when a white thread could be distinguished from a black thread. I've recently finished "online church" (it's a great service, with online coffee afterwards (=four or five breakout rooms) - nice to catch up with everybody. I will worship the Lord more fully when I go out for a lovely long walk in the sunshine, in the countryside that my house is very close to. I shall admire all the beautiful new foliage in so many different colours, all the pretty flowers, all the bees and other critters; and I will be amazed once again at the luxuriously bountiful world the Lord has created. A friend will be joining me and we will walk in tandem (socially distancing). Later, I may call on a few people who are socially isolating and have a little chat with them through their windows or open doors. Nice for shut-ins to see a real person and have a real chat. In the evening, I'll ring my mum (140 miles away, I can't visit). It seems to me that that is a worthy, honourable way to worship the Lord and to respect the Sabbath.
    1 point
  7. Well, I've been thinking about that... and how easily people get conned (in general) these days. So I found an intriguing essay about classic literature that contrasts with VP quite well. https://medium.com/@spencerbaum/3-reasons-why-you-should-read-more-classic-literature-in-2019-e762cb5c910c Call me Ishmael. The famous opening sentence of Moby Dick, so short and provocative, is welcoming and familiar to the 21st century reader, who is accustomed to snappy prose with short sentences and lots of white space. A few sentences later in Melville’s masterpiece we get a sentence that’s more representative of the novel to come. In just a bit I’m going to quote that sentence, and insist that you read it. And I mean really read it. Don’t skim it. This essay is about to make the argument that there is value to the way the classics force us to slow down and concentrate, and it will be easier for you to understand that point if you experience it first. Here’s the quote from Moby Dick. Please read it slowly and carefully: "Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people’s hats off — then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can." This brings us to the first and, to my mind, most important reason to read the classics in 2019 2020. 1. You should read classic literature because it forces you to think deeply and concentrate. 21st century media is hell on the attention span. But you already know this. You know that our digital devices are shortening our attention spans, teaching us to only skim the surface of ideas, and making us addicts to tiny dopamine bursts that come from (among other things) the Like and Share buttons. As we near the end of the second decade of the 21st century we’ve developed widespread awareness that our devices have made us shallow thinkers. We’re less cognizant, however, of the effect of the content itself. Or the style in which the content is written. Have you ever wondered why so many of the articles you read, like this one, are organized in numbered lists? Or why the writing in these articles is so often organized into ultra-short paragraphs, many of them only one sentence long? We, the content creators of the 21st century, have learned to write in snappy lists with short sentences and one-sentence paragraphs. We write this way because this is what you, the content consumers of the 21st century, choose to read. You like content that is clear, concise, simple, and to the point. You’re in a hurry (always), and we writers know, God do we know, that we are competing not just against other essays or other books, but against the endless siren songs of Facebook, Instagram, Youtube, and Twitter. We know that if we ask too much of you, say, if we give you a long sentence or, God forbid, a long paragraph, we might be taxing your mind more than you’re interested in having it taxed. We know that a complicated, multi-layered thought, one that might require you to slow down or reread a sentence or look up from your screen and think for a minute is too much to ask when your phone is bursting with notifications and there’s a new video on your favorite Youtube channel and everyone’s talking about that new show on Netflix but you haven’t even seen the last new show everyone was talking about yet and you’ve got ten tabs open on your browser and 3,000 unread books on your Kindle and holy hell who has time to consume it all just open my vein and fill it with listicles please! There’s a cost to all this. In the book The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains (a 2011 Pulitzer Prize finalist for general nonfiction), Nicolas Carr looks at all the research in neuroscience and psychology about what the Internet is doing to our brains and determines that, yes, our ceaseless attempts to skim this glut of information is making us shallow thinkers who are far less capable of deep, focused, intense thought than our parents and grandparents were. You should read the classics in 2019 to unlearn the shallowness and impatience you are learning in your hyper-accelerated 21st century life. When you read Melville (or Hugo or Austen or Tolstoy or Plato or Shakespeare) you are sharing headspace with someone who is much better at slow, deep, meaningful thinking than you are because they’ve never lived in the shallows like you do. ***** The essay continues, but I hope you get the point. Wierwille obviously didn't want you to THINK.
    1 point
  8. I've tried to deny the effect that technology has had on me for so long, but recently its become really apparent. I thought that I had the ability to concentrate, focus and, read deep texts, but once I started to try it, I realized how little patience I had. I realized how much I depend on short articles an flashy videos to learn things when I probably should have sat down and read through the issue.
    1 point
  9. Intriguing. John 1:1-5 from the Passion Translation 1 In the very beginning[a] the Living Expression[b] was already there. And the Living Expression was with God, yet fully God.[c] 2 They were together—face-to-face,[d] in the very beginning.[e] 3 And through his creative inspiration this Living Expression made all things,[f] for nothing has existence apart from him! 4 Life came into being[g] because of him, for his life is light for all humanity.[h] 5 And this Living Expression is the Light that bursts through gloom[i]— the Light that darkness could not diminish![j]
    1 point
  10. I purposely bought a different, more modern Bible translation after leaving twi in order to prevent Way brain and triggers from the KJV. And read a lot of the gospels. just read the last comment by others. I agree that the Message Bible is great. I also have recently enjoyed the Passion Translation. Both are somewhat outside the box, but good to read. For study, I would use something different.
    1 point
  11. All of them definitely refuted the need for Sabbath-keeping. The 7th day Sabbath is entirely voluntary for Christians. Your demand has been met. See how that didn't convince you? You just saying "it's irrelevant" doesn't make it so, and refusing to actually discuss the verses and their chapters certainly weakens your case. We DISCUSS things here. If you want to convince anyone that those verses DON'T refute Sabbath-keeping, you'll need to actually ADDRESS and DISCUSS the verses. Automatic gainsaying of what people say wont do that. Saying "No it isn't!" doesn't convince anyone of anything. Oh, and you definitely care what people think. You're annoyed they haven't fallen in to agree with you just because you declared your position correct by fiat. We may all hold wildly different opinions on a lot of things (as seen in this thread alone), but none of us has gotten on your bandwagon.
    1 point
  12. As wierwille closes the final session of pfal, HE SHOWS HIS CARDS. To paraphrase what wierwille says......"If you [the student] will put away all of your reading material for the next three months, the newspapers, books and material, and delve into this pfal syllabus and these [twi] books, you will hardly know yourself and how life has changed." That was the gist of his sales pitch. Again, that is not verbatim, but the subtotal of his driving message. Note: What wierwille said AND what he didn't say. What was vic's sales pitch? Immersion [and subsequent, indoctrination]. And, what didn't he say? Conversion.....walk the *new man* walk with holy spirit residing in you. Take your prayer life TO THE LORD. Let Him guide you daily. When Jesus dealt with the adulterous woman.....what were his parting words? Go, and sin no more. Time and time again, Jesus imparted *independence* [from sin and oppression] and NOT dependence. He didn't school the woman to a probationary program or study program. He set her free! One can clearly see the genuine and the counterfeit by observing the defining lines of INDEPENDENCE OR DEPENDENCE. If the underlying principle is to create a subset of dependents, then the counterfeit is in play. IMO......PFAL has subliminal messaging throughout the class. Despite the doctrinal errors, the mog-messaging is inverted to true Christianity. Wierwille proclaimed to be the *reason for the pleasing*......the one whom the Lord chose to apostle this "new light." Hogwash. Sure, he gave some lip-service to Jesus, the messiah, the Son of God and all......but then, stole the thunder most of the time. And, in the end......immersion [to twi] not conversion. Same goes with the intermediate and advanced class. Immersion not conversion. All those practice sessions to get the tongues with interpretation just right. Practice, practice, practice.....and one is immersed to consistently attend twig and calibrate his/her spirituality. Sheeeesh. It seemed like we were more fixated on standing approved before leaders than the Lord Almighty. But then......even vic's tongue was repetitive like a severely scratched record. Over and over......Lo Shanta Melo Ka Seta, Lo Shanta. Uuuugh. Immersion or Conversion?.....Dependent or Independent? No wonder my soul was ALWAYS YEARNING to get on the field, away from hq.
    1 point
  13. i somewhat remember (but i know i was asleep at the time) spending maybe a year "in residence" going over a comma it's true. i didn't know who the hell i was
    1 point
  14. Devoting one's attention to PFAL materials, exclusively, is the essence of Wierwille's challenge. The actual length of time is largely immaterial .
    1 point
  15. Then you can imagine what years in-residence of 4 hrs a day working menial tasks + 4 hours a day studying TWI materials will do to you. And these are the people leading TWI today. You see, it all starts to make a sort of sense after a while.
    1 point
  16. 3 months with nothing but TWI materials. I can't imagine a more boring time of learning absolutely nothing/lies. Maybe he should have suggested trying to crack open your bible and just read through instead of learning about specific verses that fit their agenda.
    1 point
  17. "Exclusion" is the key word here. He wanted us to intellectually "exclude" anything other than what he recommended. .
    1 point
  18. Actually, I don't recall him saying precisely that. He probably did say to study the PFAL materials (of course he would), but I recall him saying, "Read the epistles" to see who/what/how the new man should be. [lasst bit my paraphrase] Read the epistles. Not "Read the gospels," or "Study the life and behavior of Jesus." Not "Practice the Christ lifestyle." Personally I think there is merit in telling people to read the epistles. Too many churchy types read the gospels and think that that's it. The epistles are somehow irrelevant. So they don't "Learn to walk as he walked" in cultural situations such as we face today. But I don't think that reading the epistles to the exclusion of the gospels is a good thing. It's remarkable, really, how much is so very relevant to any culture, in the epistles. Be kind. Be forgiving. Pray. And remember, God's power is available to us to minister healing - just like Christ did. Yeah. Now! We can't learn that from the gospels. But we can learn how to operate that power...as Jesus did.
    1 point
  19. Good points, waysider. And, John......if you want to add "getting high" and/or drugs into the mix, it would be like equating one's addiction to secularism, but when vpw cruised the streets he was offering hits of *wierwillism.* And....the problem with this "drug" was....ONLY wierwille had it and was selling it. That would be THE WAY to corner the market. :spy:/> .
    1 point
  20. hq was always a quagmire of politicians and confidential informants (CI's). the field was pretty much the same with rampant uncontrolled egos by the few in highest positions. I saw people go into those positions and change, the fear of protecting their position overtaking genuine Christian concern and abilities, then they too turned into politicians who developed their own confidential informants. my soul yearns for some real people, real Christianity, not these plastic people with fear-induced clichés who micromanage everything. they are the Pharisees of our day and time.
    1 point
  21. I see your point, now, and find I must agree with you. One thing I do need to clarify for those who were never part of one of these programs: These programs were in NO way geared toward scholastic achievement. Sometimes I would talk to people from back home and could tell they were under the impression we were getting some special, privileged academic training. Absolutely untrue. It was the same old yada, yada we heard over and over and over at the local level. It was dressed up give it a new appearance but you know what they say about a pig and lipstick. Most of it was designed toward getting us to relinquish to a certain commune-like lifestyle, to conform to a uniform way of thinking that was intended to promote PFAL..
    1 point
  22. Waysider......I hear you, but on one issue I beg to differ. Wierwille DID give a rat's azz on the Fellow Laborers Program, because it wasn't CENTRALLY CONTROLLED. By 1976, wierwille was a 60 year old with grandiose visions of implanting his wierwille legacy for all to see. The Fellow Laborers Program gave more thrust to in-state Limb Homes and meetings. Wierwille loathed it for that very reason. Thus.....Fellow Laborers died an early death.
    1 point
  23. I spent three years there and can count the number of times VPW visited us, without using any fingers...... Zip, zero, nada, never. Remember, he had a private airplane and we had an airstrip right down the road. The whole trip, start to finish, wouldn't have consumed an entire Saturday morning. I can only surmise he didn't give a rat's azz one way or another how we were doing, as long as it didn't steal any thunder from HQ.
    1 point
  24. Oh, yeah......ISOLATION took it to a whole new level. That's why the Fellow Laborers Program and Corps Program were toxic indoctrination. Of course, wierwille frowned on the Fellow Laborers program, because it was NOT centrally controlled.....it gave more power to Limb coordinators, not Way Nash. Ever notice why it was rarely touted from the big podium?
    1 point
  25. And, the "training programs" took it one step further, combining immersion with isolation....no phones, no T.V., no outside associating with non-program persons, no spare time for personal interests, etc. When I studied a foreign language in high school, the first year was an introduction. The second and subsequent years were structured as immersion, no conversing in English while in class. Once you left the classroom, though, there was no isolation. You were free to speak English with whomever you pleased. This is where the "training programs" took it to a level that was not seen or known by the average believer in a local twig fellowship. And, there were consequences for violating this aspect of such programs. It wasn't just immersion, it was total immersion. In the least common denominator, it was behavior modification. Whenever I had a chance to connect with family members back home, who happened to be Way believers, I felt it was somehow my duty to conceal that reality from them. I guess, in my mind, I thought they might interpret that as simply my being too weak for the experience. It was counter-intuitive. I should have, instead, shouted it from the rooftops to warn others who might have wanted to follow in my footsteps.
    1 point
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