Leaderboard

I really appreciate your post, T-Bone! This really puts so very much in perspective that I have been trying to understand. This line right here. When I left TWI I found myself lost, wondering where in the world I would ever take someone that I had witnessed to. I felt lost without TWI thinking that there was nowhere to send people to learn what they needed to know and without a "ministry" I wandered, floundered around, and was kinda lost until I let go of my idols - TWI was my idol. Over time it began to gel in my heart that the only place I ever needed to point anyone to was Jesus Christ. He is quite capable to take care of the people that God has given him. We understand that the Spirit of truth came on Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. All things that the Father hath are mine - theres an order revealed in these verses - the father has given all things into Christ's hands and via the spirit Christ shows us the things that God has put into his hands. Jesus tells them in these verses that they will be seperated from him during his crucifixion but then gets right to his resuerecction and eventual ascension that they WOULD see him again. This prophecy is confirmed all through the book of Acts. Acts 2:33 is the an awesome summation and fulfillment - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. God exalted Jesus to his right hand. If your God's right hand you are second in command...who else has ever been God's righ hand man? Not even Adam. God set the pattern - Jesus Christ received of the Father the promise of holy spirit and he - Jesus Christ - shed forth the promise which they saw and heard! That is in no way shape or form absent! We tend to think of his reign as his millenial kingdom only, well, at least I did based on wierwilles heresy that Christ is absent, the bible takes his place, Christ is sitting there like a bump on a log until the next administration....geez! But it's much larger than that. Christ is doing his thing right now, he is reigning right now. Obviously, the second coming hasn't happened yet but all things are under his feet just not all things subdued just yet; it's coming but the authority is there. Wierwille wanted the glory for himself. He actually tried to supplant Christ by calling him absent and then treating his dinky 501-c3 as the body of Christ. Sadly I used to believe that mess and sadly there are still people that do. I think you are right - Christ was absent from his life and he tried to project that outwards to us. I really enjoyed the book quotes. More later - I need to think over some of the things you posted. Thanks again!

FYI, "vpw"s first class- the clone of BG Leonard's CTC "Gifts of the Spirit" class was called "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." In the thread "vp and me in Wonderland", we discussed the odd phrases and why it looked like RR went after vpw and both of them adultered together. Later, RD posted independently that that is what had happened, on some occasions. So, vpw wasn't actually admitting anything, but his exact phrasing pointed to what he meant to conceal. According to God Almighty, adultery is wrong. Adulterers are not recommended to be leaders. This is rather obvious. But a few people think that all of that is true EXCEPT FOR wierwille who gets a pass, because of the 1942 promise- which was complete bunk from the first to the last. The only reason to think vpw is worthy of ANY respect is his own insistence that he was- and that's not very convincing to most people.

I have been reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and yesterday I came across something that made me think about this Absent Christ thread. From the following excerpts of the book, I couldn’t help but compare and contrast two very different men. There’s Paul – who had a phenomenal life-changing experience on the road to Damascus, chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. Then there’s victor paul wierwille – who claimed he was given directives by God to pick up where Paul left off…cloaked in a mantle of deception he assumed the role of an apostle wannabe…a zealous pioneering advocate of a new idea – “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. …anyway… …the following excerpts are from pages 96 - 99 of the Kindle edition: Paul is a (perhaps the) primary witness in the shaping of the Christian revelation. He penned his words at a time when there were no written Gospels to feed his memory or to create his images. His epistles came during the oral period of Christian history, when there was no one authoritative source of written kerygma (the apostolic proclamation)… …nor do we have any way of knowing that Paul had access to them even if these portions of the tradition were written. These facts create an interpretative problem for modern expositors of Paul. Our minds have been so shaped by the Gospel account that we do not recognize how frequently we read Paul through the eyes of the Gospels. We need to embrace the fact that none of Paul’s first readers read him this way, for in their lives there were as yet no Gospels. To interpret Paul accurately we need to put ourselves into the first-century pre-gospel frame of reference and to hear Paul in fresh and authentic ways. When one does this the insights into the primitive Christian experience are startling and challenging… …Paul spoke and wrote Greek fluently, but with the inclusion of many secondhand semitisms. His writing style, however was the style of a speaker. He hardly ever used a period; only dashes. Sometimes his sentences would be so long, with so parenthetical thoughts thrown in, that a reader would forget what the subject of the sentence of the sentence was before reaching the verb. His writing had the rhythm of the spoken word, but he did reach heights of the almost poetic elegance in such passages as I Corinthians 13 and Rom. 8:31 – 39. Whatever else can be said about Paul, one certainly must acknowledge that on his scale of values the Law, the Torah, and his religious traditions were supreme. By this Law he lived, defined himself, shaped his life, and sought his ultimate meaning… …Paul’s writings reveal the combination of intense levels of self-negativity covered by intensely cultivated images of superiority. At first these forces fed Paul’s devotion to Judaism at the same time that they created his defensiveness. Subsequently these forces became operative in his later devotion to and understanding of the gospel. But whatever was the source of Paul’s anxiety, the rise of the Christian movement within Judaism threatened Paul’s security and identity so severely that he responded by becoming a persecutor of this movement… …Earlier convictions, passionately held, cannot be passionately abandoned without a volcanic internal crisis. Paul recounted his career as a persecutor (I Cor. 15:9; Gal.1:12ff, 1:22). And when his energies were directed to Christian ends, the intensity, passion, and single-mindedness of his personality were not diminished. He became an apostle in a manner no less consuming of his life… From: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks this Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ A few thoughts... For an apostle who never knew Jesus during his earthly ministry – Paul’s life, letters and example certainly had a lot of significant input to Christian thought. For some reason the transformation of Paul resonates with me. I think I was knocked off of my high horse when I realized I was in a cult of the absent Christ . My indoctrination skipped the typical Christian route of going through the Gospels. ~ ~ ~ ~ As an apostle of Jesus Christ, Paul was a zealous pioneering advocate for the reality, immanency, and supremacy of the risen Christ. ~ ~ ~ ~ Paul and the other apostles didn’t lure people in with promises of health, wealth, power, and secret knowledge. Their “marketing strategy” was per the simple directive from their resurrected Lord: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth Acts 1:8 NLT . In the New Testament the original notion of a witness is exhibited in the special form of one who attests his belief in the gospel by personal suffering. Hence it is that the use of the ecclesiastical term ("martyr." the Greek word for "witness," has arisen. From: Bible Study Tools: witness . Imagine if that was one of the benefits listed on the back of the green PFAL signup card: promotes personal suffering by belief in Jesus Christ. ~ ~ ~ ~ Real Christian witnesses should tell the truth about Jesus Christ. In other words, don’t go around “teaching” people Christ is absent! ~ ~ ~ ~ Paul and the other apostles didn’t go around browbeating new converts into submission by pontificating about “the greatness of the integrity and accuracy of The Word” because they didn’t have “The Word” (also known as wierwille's twisted interpretation of the King James Bible, aka PFAL ) . Thus, they couldn’t refer to chapter and verse or reference by PFAL class session number. They didn’t indoctrinate folks with “Scripture-interprets-itself” nonsense. They didn’t practice the fine art of “Scripture buildup” slight-of-hand magic fallacies to propagate the lie of 4 crucified with Jesus ( that was really just a self-promotion trick…it says “look what I found! I’m so smart ! Don't you want to see what else I have up my sleeve?” ). And they didn’t put on airs like they were some great research scholars with “I wish you could read it in the original” hooey. What did the apostles have? I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders, and miracles. II Corinthians 12:12 . “including” means not limited to signs, wonders, and miracles. The purpose of that was to authenticate them as God’s genuine apostles…what has God ever done to authenticate wierwille’s “ministry” ? All we have is wierwille’s initial claim that God talked to him? And I ask that in all sincerity as a one might ask in a court of law. If there were ever witnesses to verify God talked to wierwille or can attest to wierwille’s signs, miracles, and wonders - they’ve never come forward. Where are they? ~ ~ ~ ~ Besides divine authentication Paul and his associates walked the talk. They inspired others by their example: You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. I Thessalonians 1:6 I Thess. 1:6 is a compelling generation saga. The Lord Jesus Christ is the first born among many brothers and sisters ( Romans 8:29 ) or like the progenitor - founder of a family, first in the line of descent; In genealogy (commonly known as family history) a progenitor is the earliest recorded ancestor of a blood-relative family group of descendants. Paul and his associates were 2nd generation “imitators” of the Lord Jesus Christ ( note Bible Hub: Greek/English Interlinear of I Thess. 1:6 “imitators” in Greek is the word μιμηταὶ - also ( Bible Hub: Greek mime_tai , Strong’s # 3402 , from which we get our English word “mimic” = imitate someone or their actions or words) . The Thessalonians became the 3rd generation to mimic Christ. ~ ~ ~ ~ This seems to me to be the supernatural order of things in the early Christian movement and in my opinion just as relevant today. Jesus Christ – his earthly life, words, works, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension, and current various roles should be first and foremost the core elements of what every Christian – and especially pastors and those evangelizing - should know. these folks are the 2nd generation imitators of the Lord. No one is perfect but I think when we are less self-promoting and become more honest, humble and Christ-promoting, people can see the difference. It’s not being on an ego-trip or driven like a pushy sales rep trying to fill a class quota. Genuine altruistic Christian behavior is a supernatural attractant ultimately spawning a 3rd generation of Christ imitators. ~ ~ ~ ~ When I was about 12 years old, I would grab a badminton racquet, put The Four Season’s Walk Like A Man on my big brother’s record player and stand up on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror strumming the racquet and lip-syncing to the song. Damn I was good! Oh those were the days… They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery – which means that one imitates someone else because one admires that person or values what that person is doing. But what I did was child’s play. I knew that !!!! I could not sing like the Four Seasons – still can’t carry a tune. And a badminton racquet is not a musical instrument – I don’t care what alternate tuning you use! ~ ~ ~ ~ Years later I took up the electric bass. I am self-taught. I learned by imitation. I would put on record by The Cream, Hendrix, Zappa, The Four Tops or the Beatles and even with my wooden ear - eeeeeeventuallyyyyyy - by hunt and pluck, I’d get in sync / tune with the bass player. That takes critical thinking skills – there’s a learning curve. I’m not a linguist to explain the nuance of difference between imitate and emulate. So, internet to the rescue! Online it says emulate means to attempt to equal or be the same as, whereas imitate means to follow as a model or a pattern. imitate means to copy something, to follow something as a model or to simulate something. The word imitate may take on the connotation of unflattering mimicry, or it may take on the connotation of a counterfeit representation of something. Imitate is a transitive verb, which is a verb that takes an object. Related words are imitates, imitated, imitating, imitator, imitation. The word imitate is derived from the Latin word imitatus, which means copy or portray. Emulate also refers to imitating someone, but it means to match that person in importance or success, or to surpass that person in importance or success. Emulate carries the connotation of wishing to excel by patterning oneself on someone else who is worthy of esteem. The word emulate is also a transitive verb, related words are emulates, emulated, emulating, emulator, emulation. Emulate is derived from the Latin word aemulator, which means an imitative rival. From: Grammarist com: imitate versus emulate To teach myself how to play bass, I chose bass players that I thought were worthy of esteem. I would imitate and eventually emulate them. I’d zero in on what I liked and analyzed why it worked. For improvisation I loved to listen to The Cream’s bassist Jack Bruce. Tunes like Spoonful (live) never fails to fascinate me with Bruce’s call and response musical form on the bass - he plays a melodic riff then follows it up by a second or third slightly different phrase that completes the idea. I also like listening to the lilting phrases of the bass, violas and cellos written by Paul McCartney on tunes like Eleanor Rigby and Penny Lane. What’s surprising is that both Bruce and McCartney have mentioned Motown studio bassist James Jamerson as a big influence. So, I guess that makes me a 3rd generation home-schooled bassist. I've played bass in a few garage bands, had a few bar room gigs , a bar mitzvah or two, a few block parties, coffee houses, birthday parties, college campus parties, one college musical production, and last but not least in TWI-ministry bands I've played in the Music Challenge, Rome City Campus Chapel, small stages at the Rock...Funny though - they'd never give me a microphone...I wonder why? I think wierwille may have had a childlike fantasy he was the follow-up act for Paul the apostle. wierwille had a charismatic personality. He was a dynamic speaker. He claimed God had spoken to him and chose him to be the teacher for this day and time and hour. But it wasn’t real. He plagiarized the work of others - which was the equivalent of 12-year-old me lip-syncing and strumming the badminton racquet to Walk Like A Man…and I tell you what – even as a 12-year-old I knew what I was doing was not the real thing. wierwille was play-acting the part of Paul the apostle. He lacked authenticity…and in all his plagiarizing, lying, thieving, Drambuie-drinking, self-promotion, sexual predations he never earned the right to tell the truth about Jesus Christ – and it was apparent he had little desire to do so. He could talk the walk – I’ll give him that. It’s got to be the height of blasphemy for wierwille to teach Christ is absent…maybe call it heresy or heterodoxy…Heresy being an offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of some essential doctrine, which denial is publicly avowed, and obstinately maintained. If it’s sustained – that usually takes an organized system of thought. Heterodoxy is a system of doctrines, contrary to some established standard of faith, as the Scriptures, the creed, or standards of a church. ~ ~ ~ ~ There are some parallels with my time of involvement with The Way International. I totally bought into wierwille’s bull$hit. I thought he was the real deal. I wanted to be a great believer like I thought he was. That was one of the big reasons why I went into the way corps – to imitate him. wierwille was the progenitor for a whole line of pseudo-Christians. I was a 2nd generation faker, following in my “Dad’s” footsteps. Couldn’t wait to go out into areas of concern, interest and need (per TWI’s agenda) and sign up folks for PFAL…let’s plagiarize / revise a Who tune “talkin’ ‘bout the third generation” and wrap it up with an Austin Powers’ twist “yeah Baby!” Note the challenging counterfeit to the fundamental idea of I Thessalonians 1:6: wierwille imitated the trappings of Paul the apostle but not what Paul had on the inside. Jesus Christ put it this way: What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness. Matthew 23:27, 28 What did Paul have on the inside? I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 Our Christian life legally began when we were crucified with Christ (idea for a new book: The Billions Crucified with Jesus Christ…take that, Bullinger! ) . Our Christian lifestyle is contingent upon our relational choices. Do we prefer those comfortable old shoes of bad habits? Or do we make more of an effort to follow Christ? Is Christ absent or present in our lives? (idea for a book sequel: Why Is My Zombie Look-alike Still Following Me? ) Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily, and follow me. If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it. Luke 9:23,24 ….(how about I make it a trilogy: Every Damn Day I have To Crucify My Zombie Look-alike ) . The Absent Christ? I think Christ was absent from wierwille’s life and legacy.

I’m so !$#%ing proud of you Leah. You’ll find your freedom in unconditional self love. Keep going sister, you are not alone.

Back when lcm drove off 80% of twi in 88-89 with his "line in the sand", a fellow with the screen-name of Cesar Salad said he thought the biggest problem with lcm was that he wasn't able to get humble enough to "wash the apostles' feet" and so he wasn't fit for ministry work, since it was for HIS OWN glory and not for Jesus. It's no different for any other alleged "leader" that vpw trained, or vpw's machine trained. They all want to be the top dog- so all of them are UNWORTHY to be ministers. All of them want to be SERVED and not to SERVE.

This thread is rapidly becoming one of my favorite! Wonderfully heartfelt, HONEST, and well-articulated firsthand experience, personal courage, and transparency for all to respect and enjoy. Thank you all. Keep it going!

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...