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Cults, ideological tyrants, social media, abusive relationships, seem to all have cluster B behaviors and therefore thinking behind them as a common denominator. In that way yes TWI can decouple. VPW is often described as a Malignant Narcissist and therefore traits can be extracted and practiced because VPW did not write the book on Cluster B. He is one of millions of examples. However, if TWI is tied to an origin story involving snow up their gas hump, it may be unlikely to decouple.

vpw wasn't savvy enough to copyright the tapes. vpw slapped a copyright on every single book, starting with the first ones that he plagiarized all down the line. See, Mike, you can't have it both ways. Either it's wrong to plagiarize everybody- so don't plagiarize vpw but he was wrong to do it first, or it's perfectly fine to plagiarize everybody so it's ok to plagiarize vpw all you want. You've claimed vpw was ok to plagiarize, but if we do it to vpw's books, it's wrong.

Cutting through all the rationalization, here we are again having to explain to mike the most basic ethical issues in life. So be it. https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-plagiarism.html (I have no doubt mike will disregard the source because its not wierwille: but for those reading along who still have an unseared conscience) Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else’s work or ideas and presenting them as your own. Plagiarism is most commonly associated with written work, such as research papers or books, but it can also occur with artistic expressions or in spoken work, such as a speech. While it is true that imitation is the highest form of flattery, such imitation is only flattering when proper credit is given to the original. When proper credit or permission is not given, imitation becomes plagiarism. Plagiarism is dishonest because it advances a falsehood, passing off as one’s own the work of another, and the Bible has much to say about lying (e.g., Exodus 20:16; Proverbs 6:17). Plagiarism is also self-seeking, since the plagiarizer attempts to promote himself through the stolen work, and the Bible condemns self-seeking (see Romans 2:8; Philippians 2:3; 2 Timothy 3:2). Plagiarism is also stealing, and the Bible has much to say about the evils of stealing (e.g., Exodus 20:15). To steal is to take something that belongs to another, without permission, and make it one’s own. It’s easy to see how taking someone’s physical property is wrong. But taking someone’s intellectual property is just as wrong. Ideas, creative work, and written expressions belong to the person who created them. Plagiarism takes from the creator what was produced from his or her own mind and heart. Plagiarism robs authors, artists, musicians, and other creators of their right to profit from their own original work. It also robs them of the right to build a reputation based upon their work. Stealing is a sin that was part of our old lives, not to be continued after we meet Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17). Ephesians 4:28 says that stealing must be replaced with something good: “Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.” This principle applies to the theft of intellectual property as well. If plagiarism has been a part of someone’s old life, it must be renounced and confessed to the Lord as sin (see 1 John 1:9). In order to live in honesty and integrity, we must give proper credit to people whose work we admire, and we should request permission before using the work of others as part of our own creations. Plagiarism has no part in the life of a follower of Christ (1 Peter 4:15).

Anyone ever taken a close look at the graphic for the GP? It has 3 thin lines as the border in the upper triangle. Does that have any significance? I have no idea. It does, however, cause me to suspect that VPW may have *lifted* this graphic from a trinitarian, without fully realizing the nuances the originator was trying to opine.

Every once in a while, in society and here, there's someone who engages in this specific fallacy. "I must be right because I'm in the minority." "I must be right because lots of people keep insisting I'm wrong." "If I wasn't right after all, people wouldn't be trying to say I'm wrong!" Since this comes up, I thought I'd give this its own thread. It's a logical fallacy, which is not unknown among ex-twi, and this specific one is the private turf of the self-appointed experts, the self-proclaimed voices in the wilderness, the ones sure they are MORE right BECAUSE people refute them all the time. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/logical-take/202006/the-galileo-gambit-and-appealing-ignorance The Galileo Gambit and Appealing to Ignorance The fact that you are probably wrong, doesn’t mean you’re right. When pseudo-scientists have been bested by the solid evidence and careful research of actual accredited experts (aka authorities on a subject), they will almost inevitably pull out this quote from Galileo: "In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." In their mind, they are like Galileo—the lone voice of reason, standing up for the truth against an onslaught of ignorant authorities. And this, more than anything else, in their minds, proves that they are right: “The mainstream laughed at Galileo when he said the sun was the center of the solar system; that flew against conventional wisdom too, but that turned out to be right. So my theory is right too.” But there’s a name for this: The Galileo Gambit—and it is a recognized and well-known fallacy. The Galileo Gambit The Galileo Gambit engages in many mistakes, but the main one is this: It’s a faulty analogy. The fact that two persons have one thing in common does not mean that they have everything in common—or even, another thing in common. Yes, the authorities thought Galileo was wrong, and they also think that you are wrong—but the fact that he turned out to be right doesn’t mean that you are. As Carl Sagan once put it: “The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” And for every genius who bucked the system and turned out to be right, there are a thousand that bucked the system and turned out to be wrong. If you disagree with the experts, statistically speaking, you are much more likely to be one of the Bozos. And disregarding all the times those who disagreed with the authorities turned out to be wrong, makes one guilty of even more fallacious reasoning: confirmation bias, availability error, and denying the evidence. Authority vs. Humble Reasoning With that clearly laid out, one might wonder why Galileo said what he said. Why would he think that the findings of one lone person could overrule expert consensus? Well, is that really what he meant? Let’s look at that quote again, and concentrate on a couple of words. In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Notice that he doesn’t say a single person can override the informed consensus of experts. He said it can override the authority of many. But what authority would Galileo have been talking about? Who said he was wrong? It wasn’t scientists. It was the church! He's talking about religious authorities. So what he is saying is that a bunch of people claiming something on authority alone (i.e., without evidence, because of tradition, or “because the Bible says so”) is not worth much. It can be easily overridden. What’s more, he’s not saying that the fact that one lone person merely disagreeing with the authorities is a good reason to think that one lone person is right. He is saying that a lone person’s humble reasoning is better than mere authority. Authority alone cannot outweigh the evidence of just one person who presents a good and careful scientific argument. In the same way, however, he would undoubtedly agree that the humble reasoning of just one individual cannot outweigh the humble reasoning of 100, especially if they are all checking each other’s work for errors (i.e., peer review). Indeed — what could be less humble than thinking that you, alone, know better than all the experts who have dedicated their lives to studying a topic? So a lone genius can overturn the consensus if the consensus is just based on tradition, or authority, but not if that consensus was reached through the long arduous careful process known as the scientific method." (For the curious, it's a good article, and it does continue.)

In listening to conversations of those I personally know who are involved with TWI, the followers still seek information that's connected to VPW. Knowing something VPW said or might have said is still the main currency among that group.

When Pinocchio learned to be honest with himself and hear the cricket, he began making selfless decisions.

Its obvious mike seems to lack the ability to deal with people here honestly in a discussion setting. Makes me wonder if he also lacks the ability to be honest with himself.

What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.

Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend. The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being in us but also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us. Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life. What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.

I just can't for the life of me figure out how God can contradict his own will by telling victor Paul wierwille to steal from others and also become a respecter of persons. God cannot change. But he told wierwille copy others and then copyright what he stole claiming it was his own. That's up there with God making a hologram if Jesus.

Yep

No he just “borrowed” them for a while to write the “literal translations according to usage”, which were much better than scripture.

According to Mike, it was ok for vpw alone to do it because God told vpw to do it- He told vpw what to plagiarize, where to find it, etc. But if YOU do it with vpw's books, it's wrong.

I wish I could upvote the above post 50 times.

One can never overlook that fact that wierwille likely wasnt savvy enough to understand the value of copyrighting his own materials until 82. I mean he had his lusts fulfilled: private airplanes, money rolling in that was misappropriated, a seeming endless supply of young vulnerable young women to prey on, endless praise and adoration, etc.

Bull$h!t. He not only hoarded what he stole from others, he also demanded money for the goods. dont have $100? Tough, you dont get the class. Dont have money for the books? Tough you dont get them. Dont have enough money to continue your corps trainimg? Tough, you can stay as long as your money holds.

And, to take it a step further, if intellectual property rights dont matter then why is the way international so agressive in suing any perceived/actual copyright infringement when they feel someone is using their copyrighted material?

No it means nothing. Substitute one sentence for the other and it changes not one bit of the meaning. You are going after the windmills in your own mind.

Okay then characterize it correctly. As opposed to sniping and hiding. How does God rob Peter to pay Paul? How does this work exactly?

Because it is completely illogical. God does not have one set of standards for property and another for “intellectual” property. Therefore leaving off the second half of the sentence changes nothing. Apparently the density is real high so we need to explain this. Peoples entire jobs exist around IP. Meaning food clothing shelter. I used clear examples which you glossed over like big pharma. This is even more telling. Why do you think you can just skip over logic and ignore it?

If your moved goal post now claims PLAF can only be proven it's God-breathe by living it, I and 18,000 others prove your postulate false. I spent most of my life believing PLAF and trying to make it work. It never did.

Welllll the Christ in you hope of glory wasn’t the presence of Christ in any sense. It was the iron man suit lower case hs in the great principle. They didn’t teach hs was literally Jesus just the power. I do note your point especially since you have no vested interest. Personally my goalposts have moved a good deal in my faith and Christology or whatever the theological official term is. The clearest example I can think of regarding the absence of Christ in TWI is that they can dedicate two full classes to the study of I Cor 12-14 yet never collaborate with other Christians their entire life - the eye saying no need for hand. Blind to a big verse smack in the middle of their wheelhouse. There are other fundamental issues with VPW Christ in you mental models of Jesus appendages being “behind” yours that I have also. I feel a lot more connected with other Christians with dumping fundamentalist views. And with community in general with those of other faiths. I am much more free to interact without the burden of an underlying sales quota to fulfill. Exchanges are much more easy and light as a result. Philosophy or religion. Occasionally most don’t speak of those things regularly. Good talk.

It's liberating!

You don't burst out singing during your noon meal? . . . I wonder how much singing helps quell doubtful thoughts

Dig that...neither is new Knoxville cause according to them they're not part of the world.

Nothing shouts FAILURE more than building an auditorium with an orchestra pit, deluxe rehearsal room, a/v sound room, 1,440 seating capacity…… and very few people, besides staff, show up. So much for that “spiritual perception and awareness” let alone the “higher powers of the church” (ie wierwille) receiving any type of guidance or revelation.

Oh? Which sage told you that?