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  1. Some people don’t know this - but there are 2 kinds of logic: 1. There’s logic logic and then there’s 2. cult-logic
    2 points
  2. Too bad we’re all not telepathic - grammar and the meaning of words wouldn’t matter - we would all just know what each other really meant
    2 points
  3. No it isnt. VPW likely had a Freudian slip when he made the statemtent "It’s the Word, even if it never comes to pass" because that's not a statement of faith such as the one Jesus made in the gospels where he stated that not one jot or tittle shall pass before all is fulfilled. However, Im not here to debate the unknown and wierwille's motivations and faith are unknown at this time....well...Im talking about his true hearts intent...A lot can be discerned from his actions that arent at all favorable to the man's legacy but that's not my point. So digression aside. Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego didnt indicate that they doubted God's promises. God had made no specific promise in the scrolls that anyone would be saved alive out of a burning fiery furnace but they simply stated they were willing martyrs in case that's what it came to. It's a rather poor comparison because S,M, and A are listed in scripture as examples of having unmoveable commitment and faith to God, where victor paul wierwille is someone who preyed on the flock. That's in scripture too and there's plenty of references to ravenous wolves and false prophets having eyes full of adultery....those would more appropriate for VPW. For wierwille to even introduce the concept "even if it never comes to pass" reeks of a faithless heart...but Im not the searcher of hearts and that's not for me to say, though it doesn't look favarouble. Mike, the law of believing caused me to have blurry lines when it comes to the promises of God. You see, you or I (or anyone else) are not the agents to bring the promises of God to pass by our believing. The law of believing introduces that sort of doubt into the promises of God because if they dont come to pass in your life the way we were taught to demand then it indicates that we lack believing to bring them to pass. One would not have enough faith in themselves to believe big enough to bring those promises to fruition. I ask ine question: Who made the promises? God! So it's God's business to bring them to pass according to the counsel of his own will: God needs no advisor and he needs no agent. However, he did choose to make us his children and he did choose to make us fellow-workers and re-create us after the image of his only begotten son and for that I am thankful. God is the object of our faith and scripture also tells us to have faith in Jesus Christ as well. We are to trust God that not one jot or tittle will pass. Once I started living this way a huge weight fell off my shoulders because I dont have to bring Gods promises to pass: I cant. I can "claim" them in the sense that I make them my own in my heart, thinking and expectation. But the agency belongs to God. I approach God with love, humility, and respect and ask in faith...I no longer approach the throne of Grace with a demanding, entitled attitude. Im not saying you are either...it's simply what we were taught by wierwille.
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  4. It's always seen backwards. We never discuss all the people who "believe for" lots of money and never get it. We discuss a handful of people who ALREADY have lots of money and how their "believing" supposedly got it. But it didn't, and that's "cherry-picking" or "counting the hits and IGNORING the misses," and that's illogical.
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  5. So much effort to MAKE it fit is your sign that it doesn’t.
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  6. From the third link of the first post..... https://www.equip.org/articles/whats-wrong-with-the-word-faith-movement-part-one/ What’s Wrong with the Word Faith Movement? (Part One) E. W. Kenyon and the Twelve Apostles of Another Gospel This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 15, number 3 (1993). The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org SYNOPSIS What’s wrong with the “Faith” movement? Its leaders include many of the most popular television evangelists. Its adherents compose a large percentage of charismatic evangelical Christians. Its emphases on faith, the authority of the believer, and the absolute veracity of Scripture could appear to be just what today’s church needs. And yet, I am convinced that this movement poses one of the greatest contemporary threats to orthodox Christianity from within. Through it, cultic theology is being increasingly accepted as true Christianity. This article will highlight several serious problems with the Faith movement by providing an overview of its major sources and leaders. Part Two will focus on the movement’s doctrinal deviations as represented by one of its leading proponents.1 ITS DEBT TO NEW THOUGHT It is important to note at the outset that the bulk of Faith theology can be traced directly to the cultic teachings of New Thought metaphysics. Thus, much of the theology of the Faith movement can also be found in such clearly pseudo-Christian cults as Religious Science, Christian Science, and the Unity School of Christianity. Over a century before the Faith movement became a powerful force within the Christian church, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby (1802-1866), the father of New Thought, was popularizing the notion that sickness and suffering ultimately have their origin in incorrect thinking.2 Quimby’s followers held that man could create his own reality through the power of positive affirmation (confession).3 Metaphysical practitioners have long taught adherents to visualize health and wealth, and then to affirm or confess them with their mouths so that the intangible images may be transformed into tangible realities.4 Although proponents of Faith theology have attempted to sanitize the metaphysical concept of the “power of mind” by substituting in its stead the “force of faith,” for all practical purposes they have made a distinction without a difference. New Thought writer Warren Felt Evans, for example, wrote that “faith is the most intense form of mental action.”5 In treating a patient, Evans commented that “the effect of the suggestion [or positive affirmation that the patient is well] is the result of the faith of the subject, for it is always proportioned to the degree in which the patient believes what you say” (emphasis in original).6 Likewise, H. Emilie Cady, a well-known writer for Charles and Myrtle Fillmore’s Unity School of Christianity, explained that “our affirming, backed by faith, is the link that connects our conscious human need with His power and supply.”7 Cady also claimed that “there is power in our word of faith to bring all good things right into our everyday life.”8 Such statements strongly indicate that the distinction between the “mind” of metaphysics and the “faith” of Faith theology is nothing but a figment of the imagination. SUBSTANCE, STYLE, AND SCAMS There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from metaphysics. Some of the substance, style, and scams endemic to the movement, however, can be traced primarily to the teachings and practices of certain post-World War II faith healers and revivalists operating within Pentecostal circles.9 With regard to substance, for example, both Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin point to T. L. Osborn and William Branham as true men of God who greatly influenced their lives and ministries. Of course, Osborn himself has consistently followed E. W. Kenyon’s (see below) Scripture-twisting antics,10 and Branham has (among other things) denounced the doctrine of the Trinity as coming directly from the Devil.11 Unfortunately, Hagin and Copeland are not alone in affirming Branham; Faith proponent Benny Hinn gives him a hearty “thumbs up” as well.12 When it comes to style, however, Hinn gravitates more toward such faith healers as Aimee Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman. In addition, Hinn has given his endorsement to notorious revivalist A. A. Allen,13 who was truly a huckster if there ever was one — which brings us to our third “s,” the scams. Faith teachers such as Robert Tilton and his female counterpart, Marilyn Hickey, have copied many of the scams pioneered by Pentecostal preachers such as Oral Roberts and A. A. Allen. In fact, Tilton and Hickey have managed to exceed even their predecessors’ outrageous ploys. This is hard to believe when one considers what sort of schemes they had to outdo. Roberts, the reader may recall, is the man who claimed that Jesus appeared and told him God had chosen him to find the cure for cancer. In a lengthy appeal, Roberts avowed that the Lord told him, “I would not have had you and your partners build the 20-story research tower unless I was going to give you a plan that will attack cancer.” Roberts then said that Jesus instructed him to tell his partners that “this is not Oral Roberts asking for the money but their Lord.”14 (The project was completed, but has since been “shut down and sold to a group of investors for commercial development.”15 Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever found.) In like fashion, A. A. Allen “scammed” his followers by asserting that he could command God to “turn dollar bills into twenties.”16 He was also known to have urged his followers to send for his “prayer cloths anointed with the Miracle Oil,”17 and he offered “Miracle tent shavings” as points of contact for personal miracles.18 Allen even “launched a brief ‘raise the dead’ program.”19 Of course, it died. Allen was eventually kicked out of the Assemblies of God denomination when he jumped bail after being arrested for drunk driving.20 In 1970 he died from what “news accounts report [as] sclerosis of the liver.”21 As we proceed to examine the primary purveyors of Faith theology, we will see living proof of the maxim that “error begets error and heresy begets heresy.” If, for example, one examines the cultic progression of E. W. Kenyon’s theology, one will discover that his original deviations from orthodox Christianity were minor compared to those that characterized the later stages of his ministry. And with each of Kenyon’s successive disciples, the errors become even more pronounced. Hagin, who popularized and plagiarized Kenyon prolifically, not only expanded Kenyon’s perversions but added to them as well.22 The progression from bad to worse has continued with people like Kenneth Copeland and Charles Capps, and is now reaching heretical heights that are almost inconceivable through ministry leaders like Frederick Price, Benny Hinn, and Robert Tilton. THE CAST OF CHARACTERS Twisted texts, make-believe miracles, and a counterfeit Christ are all common denominators of the Faith movement’s leading teachers. And, as all who look into the matter will clearly see, it all began with the metaphysical teachings of Essek William Kenyon. Essek William Kenyon Essek William Kenyon, whose life and ministry were enormously impacted by such cults as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, and New Thought metaphysics,23 is the true father of the modern-day Faith movement. Many of the phrases popularized by present-day prosperity preachers, such as “What I confess, I possess,” were originally coined by Kenyon. Kenneth Hagin, to whom we next turn our attention, plagiarized much of Kenyon’s work, including the statement, “Every man who has been ‘born again’ is an Incarnation, and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an Incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth.”24 Kenneth E. Hagin As I thoroughly demonstrate in my book Christianity in Crisis (Harvest House, 1993), Kenneth Hagin takes Kenyon’s theology from bad to worse. Not only does he boast of alleged visits to heaven and hell, he recounts numerous out-of-body experiences (OBEs) on the earth as well. On one occasion, Hagin claims he was in the middle of a sermon when, suddenly, he was transported back in time. He ended up in the back seat of a car and watched as a young woman from his church committed adultery with the driver. The entire experience lasted about fifteen minutes, after which Hagin abruptly found himself back in church, summoning his parishioners to prayer.25 Despite his propensity for telling tall tales and describing false visions, virtually every major Faith teacher has been impacted by Hagin — including such “luminaries” as Frederick K. C. Price and Kenneth Copeland. Kenneth Copeland Kenneth Copeland got his start in ministry as a direct result of memorizing Hagin’s messages. It wasn’t long before he had learned enough from Hagin to establish his own following. To say his teachings are heretical would be an understatement — blasphemous is more like it. Copeland brashly pronounces God to be the greatest failure of all time, boldly proclaims that “Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross” (emphasis in original),26 and describes Christ in hell as an “emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit.”27 Yet, despite such statements, Benny Hinn ominously warned that “those who attack Kenneth Copeland are attacking the very presence of God!”28 Benny Hinn Benny Hinn is one of the fastest rising stars on the Faith circuit. According to an October 5, 1992 article in Christianity Today, sales of his books in the last year-and-a-half have exceeded those of James Dobson and Charles Swindoll combined.29 While claiming to be “under the anointing,” Hinn has uttered some of the most “off-the-wall” statements imaginable — including the claim that the Holy Spirit revealed to him that women were originally designed to give birth out of their sides.30 Hinn also admits to frequenting the graves of both Kathryn Kuhlman and Aimee Semple McPherson to get the “anointing” from their bones.31 Despite his outrageous antics, Hinn has somehow managed to gain wide acceptance and visibility within the evangelical Christian church. His platform on the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), as well as his promotion by a mainstream Christian publisher (Thomas Nelson), have catapulted him into prime-time visibility. Whether Hinn is referring to his family history or his rendezvous with the Holy Spirit, fantasy is often passed on as fact. A case in point are the thousands of “documented” healings claimed by Hinn. Recently, he sent me three examples — presumably, the cream of the crop — as proof of his miracle-working power. One of the cases involved a man who was supposedly healed of colon cancer. A medically naive person reading the pathology report may well see the notation “no evidence of malignancy” and be duped into thinking that a bona fide healing had indeed taken place. CRI’s medical consultant, Dr. Preston Simpson, however, was not fooled by the report. His investigation revealed that the colon tumor in question was surgically removed rather than miraculously healed. The other two cases had comparably serious problems.32 Frederick K. C. Price Fred Price is the most notable of a growing number of black prosperity preachers. His church in Los Angeles now claims some 16,000 members. He is seen nationally on television and has referred to himself as the “chief exponent of Name It and Claim It.”33 Price has added his own unique twists to Faith theology by asserting that Jesus took on the nature of Satan prior to the crucifixion34 and by claiming that the Lord’s Prayer is not for Christians today.35 Despite telling his followers that he doesn’t allow sickness in his home, Price’s wife has been treated for cancer in her pelvic area.36 Referring to his wealth, Price says the reason he drives a Rolls Royce is that he is following in Jesus’ steps.37 John Avanzini John Avanzini is billed by his Faith peers as a recognized authority on biblical economics. The truth, however, is that Avanzini is an authority on perverting Scripture as a means to picking the pockets of the poor. He has honed his craft into such an art form that when Faith teachers need money, they inevitably call on “Brother John.” Armed with a bag full of Bible-twisting tricks, he tells the unsuspecting that “a greater than a lottery has come. His name is Jesus!”38 According to Avanzini, if Jesus was rich, we should be rich as well. Thus, he recasts Christ into a mirror image of himself — complete with designer clothes, a big house, and a wealthy, well-financed advance team.39 Thinking otherwise, Avanzini claims, will prevent Christians from reaping the prosperity God has laid out for them.40 Avanzini runs the gamut from teaching people how to get their hands on the “wealth of the wicked” to what might best be described as his “hundredfold hoax.”41 When it comes to fleecing God’s people, few can match the effectiveness of John Avanzini. There is an exception, however; his name is Robert Tilton. Robert Tilton Robert Tilton hit the big time as a fisher of funds by developing a religious infomercial called Success-N-Life. It all began when he traveled to Hawaii to hear from the Lord. Says Tilton, “If I’m going to go to the cross, I’m going to go in a pretty place. Not some dusty place like Jerusalem. That’s gravel is all that place is.”42 While languishing in his exotic wilderness, Tilton “realized his mission was to persuade the poor to give what they could to him — as God’s surrogate — so they too could be blessed.”43 Then, one day, Tilton tuned in to television and turned on to Dave Del Dotto’s real estate infomercials. The rest is history. Tilton used what he saw as a prototype44 for building an empire that takes in as much as $65 million per year.45 It now appears that Tilton’s ill-gotten gains may dwindle rapidly amid reports of scandal and a variety of lawsuits.46 Responding to charges from ABC’s Prime Time Live that the prayer request letters he promises to pray over end up in dumpsters, Tilton claims, “I laid on top of those prayer requests so much that the chemicals actually got into my bloodstream, and . . . I had two small strokes in my brain.”47 Marilyn Hickey Marilyn Hickey, much like Tilton, employs a broad range of tactics to manipulate followers into sending her money. Among her many ploys are anointed prayer cloths, ceremonial breastplates, and ropes that can be used as points of contact. In one of her appeal letters, Hickey promises she will slip into a ceremonial breastplate, “press your prayer request to my heart,” and “place your requests on my shoulders” — all for a suggested donation.48 For the most part, Hickey’s tricks and teachings are recycled from other prosperity peddlers like Tilton, Hagin, and Copeland. Her message is peppered with such Faith jargon as “the God-kind of faith,” “confession brings possession,” and “receiving follows giving.” Paul Yonggi Cho (David Cho) Paul Yonggi Cho — pastor of the world’s largest church, located in Seoul, South Korea — claims to have received his call to preach from Jesus Christ Himself, who supposedly appeared to him dressed like a fireman.49 Cho has packaged his faith formulas under the label of “fourth dimensional power.”50 He is well aware of his link to occultism, arguing that if Buddhists and Yoga practitioners can accomplish their objectives through fourth dimensional powers, then Christians should be able to accomplish much more by using the same means.51 In case one is tempted to confuse the size of Cho’s following with the truth of his teachings, let me point out that the Buddhist version of “name it and claim it” (Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism) has an even larger following than does Cho.52 Cho recently made the news by changing his name from Paul to David. As Cho tells the story, God showed him that Paul Cho had to die and David Cho was to be resurrected in his place. According to Cho, God Himself came up with his new name.53 Charles Capps Charles Capps was ordained as a minister in the International Convention of Faith Churches and Ministers by Kenneth Copeland and derived his teachings directly from Kenneth Hagin. This unfortunate combination has led Capps to make some of the most blasphemous statements in Faith lore. Capps has gone so far as to teach that Jesus was the product of God’s positive confession: “This is the key to understanding the virgin birth. God’s Word is full of faith and spirit power. God spoke it. God transmitted that image to Mary. She received the image inside of her….The embryo that was in Mary’s womb was nothing more than the Word of God….She conceived the Word of God.”54 Capps not only preaches the blasphemous, he also preaches the ridiculous. For example, he claims that if someone says, “I’m just dying to do that” or “That just tickled me to death,” their statements may literally come true (i.e., they may die). According to Capps, this is precisely why the human race now lives only about seventy years instead of 900 years, as was the case with Adam.55 Jerry Savelle Jerry Savelle has made his fortune by mimicking virtually all of the Faith teachers mentioned above. His greatest claim to fame, however, may well be his ability to mimic Kenneth Copeland. In fact, Savelle appears to be an exact duplicate of Copeland. Savelle demonstrates a total lack of biblical acumen, as he blindly regurgitates virtually every heresy in the Faith movement. With regard to health, Savelle boasts that sickness and disease cannot enter his world.56 As for wealth, he says that words can speak your world into existence.57 Savelle now peddles his books and tapes to thirty-six countries at the astonishing rate of some 300,000 copies per year. Morris Cerullo Morris Cerullo claims that he gave up a driving ambition to be the governor of New Jersey in order to become a minister of the gospel.58 He purports to have first met God at the tender age of eight. Since then his life has been one mind-blowing experience after another: he says he was taught by leading rabbis;59 led out of a Jewish orphanage by two angelic beings;60 transported to heaven for a face-to-face meeting with God;61 and told he would be capable of revealing the future.62 On one occasion, Cerullo informed his audience, “You’re not looking at Morris Cerullo — you’re looking at God. You’re looking at Jesus.”63 Not only is Cerullo a master of make-believe, he is also a master of manipulation. Claiming that God was directly speaking through him, Cerullo uttered, “Would you surrender your pocketbooks unto Me, saith God, and let me be the Lord of your pocketbooks….Yea, so be thou obedient unto my voice.”64 Paul Crouch Paul Crouch and his wife, Jan, are the founders of the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which today has an estimated net worth of half a billion dollars. As Crouch himself puts it, “God has, indeed, given us the MOST POWERFUL VOICE in the history of the WORLD.”65 Unfortunately, this voice is being used to promote teachings straight from the kingdom of the cults. Crouch’s influence has become so vast that he can now raise as much as $50 million during a single “Praise-a-Thon.” What many of the well-intentioned Christians who support TBN do not know, however, is that part of this money goes to promoting cultic groups and individuals who not only deny the Trinity but claim that this essential of Christianity is a pagan doctrine.66 It is indeed ironic that a broadcasting network called “Trinity” would promote anti-Trinitarian doctrine. To those who would speak out against the false teachings proliferated on his network, Crouch has this to say: “I think they’re damned and on their way to hell; and I don’t think there’s any redemption for them.”67 Shortly after I met with Crouch to prove that the Faith movement compromises essential Christian doctrine, Crouch looked into the lens of the television camera and angrily declared, “If you want to criticize Ken Copeland for his preaching on faith, or Dad Hagin, get out of my life! I don’t even want to talk to you or hear you. I don’t want to see your ugly face. Get out of my face, in Jesus’ name.”68 Sadly, Crouch refers to the Faith message as a “revival of truth . . . restored by a few precious men.”69 GENETIC DEFECT? The Faith movement was spawned by the unholy marriage of 19th-century New Thought metaphysics with the flamboyance and abuses of post-World War II revivalism. It should therefore come as no surprise that its doctrine and practices are palpably unbiblical. Yet, some charge that critics of the movement are guilty of committing a logical error known as the genetic fallacy — “that is, rejecting an assumption because of where it comes from rather than disproving the argument.”70 While the charge appears formidable, it is in fact defective. For it assumes that the criticisms against the Faith movement are made primarily if not solely on the basis of its historical roots. In truth, the bulk of critical evaluations are leveled directly against the unbiblical teachings of the movement’s leading proponents today.71 Historical discussions have, for the most part, served to place the phenomenon in its proper context.72 Now that we’ve dug up the roots and sampled the topsoil of the Faith movement, we are ready to take a penetrating look at its ripened fruit. Part Two of this article will do just that, by systematizing and critiquing the theology of the movement’s premier preacher of another gospel
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  8. There are some "super" posts on this thread that cause the knees to buckle and the head to explode under the weight of their nonsense and stupidity. So many words, so little said.
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  9. Hyperbole is not a subtle exaggeration. Hyperbole is obvious. That's why it's hyperbole. It's not a device used to weasel one's way out of responsibility and culpability. It's not a cop out.
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  10. Then what's the point of using a figure of speech? Weak communicators, amateurs, neophytes employ hyperbole and then provide the literal. It's cutting the legs out from under the figure of speech - it renders it useless and ineffectual. It's pointless. It's awkward. It can only elicit embarrassment from the reader. It's cringe. It's analogous to a comedian explaining the joke, or a magician explaining the card trick. If it must be explained, it's a bad joke, a bad trick.
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  11. And yet, we all thought grammar was of utmost importance regarding the comma placement in Luke 23:43.
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  12. Mike: God chose languages to communicate his Will, therfore, the rules of grammer are not stupid at all but function as a safeguard in rightly dividing scripture.
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  13. I want a pet Honey Badger one day, although I dont think I would be OK for very long...I love watching documentaries on those little furry critters....they can get bitten multiple times by cobras and such and just get a little woozy and still kill and eat the snake....they are lil bad @$$3s!
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  14. They are not even remotely similar. "Even if it never comes to pass" is nowhere near the same as "Even if it doesn't happen today". To be clear, I'm not telling you what to believe. What I am telling you, though, is that these are grammatically not equivalent.
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  15. To be clear, my post was challenging wierwille’s statement – mine was a rhetorical question, asked to undermine wierwille’s point; I could have said that doesn't make sense. And what was wierwille’s point? I’ve heard him use the phrase in the context of berating followers after some fiasco with the corps program as well as various other failures to achieve a benchmark with other TWI-agenda. And in more general scenarios I’ve heard him use a form of the phrase to reprimand someone’s lack of believing – like even if what you were believing for never happens, it’s still God’s Word. He’d waffle around all kinds of ambitious claims, I remember one time he got off on some scatterbrained tirade about the monumental challenge of getting the Word over the world – and he said something like if we got the Word over the world in his lifetime, we’d see Jesus Christ come back 'booms-quick' – in other words, the failure of wierwille’s conditional phrase doesn’t negate God’s Word. All of these examples presume biblically sounding goals are promises of God – with a subtext in each failure that any TWI guilt-ridden follower knows means just because they failed to believe the promises of God - aka the more than abundant life as assured in PFAL – it’s still God’s Word. I see that all as a misinterpretation and misapplication of Scripture. As OldSkool referenced Matthew 5:18 New International Version For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. wierwille’s statement "It’s the Word, even if it never comes to pass" sounds biblical – but it negates what Jesus Chrisr said in Matthew 5:18 – another way to put it is if it doesn’t come to pass then it wasn’t the Word of God. For the ancient Hebrews, there was a safeguard to secure the predictive or prophetic elements of Scripture – as mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:22: New International Version If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed. Thus, everything in the Bible that God said will come to pass - will happen. There should be no question that it won't. For greedy, materialistic, health-and-wealth 'believers' that's a different story. "God's Word says I should prosper. I'm dirt poor. I don't understand it. I'm believing for it. I'm practicing the law of giving and receiving - going way over the tithe to TWI. I'm still dirt poor. wa wa wa all the way home in my WOW-moblie." This business here is backpedaling…with some of that conversational quick-change scam to boot! Shame on you Mike! Quit trying to defend wierwille’s goofy phrases by revising them and running it up the flagpole.
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  16. He could show some emotion too. How else does one write so much and say nothing at all?
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  17. Then there’s the word omnipresent - present everywhere at the same time – which makes me think of New International Version When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all…I Corinthians 15:28 That takes present to a whole new mind-blowing level
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  18. Thanks for the reminder, Rocky! I remember that bad-a$$ from your post on another thread …You know, instead of the overused I’ma get medieval on you’re a$$ …maybe we could coin a new warning I’ma get honey badger on you
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  19. The Bible, in contrast, teaches that God's will determines the answer to our prayers: God, as a loving heavenly Father, gives us what is best for us, and only he is capable of determining that. Countless faithful Christians have prayed for healing from illness or disability yet remain unhealed. On the other hand, many Word of Faith preachers who claim healing is only a prayer away wear eyeglasses and go to the dentist and doctor. This error is dangerous because it leads followers to a false understanding of God's sovereign nature and a faith that is unstable. When our faith is not built on the solid foundation of God's truth it will easily crumble and fail. Error #2: God's Favor Results in Riches Financial abundance is a common thread among Word of Faith preachers, causing some to call this the "prosperity gospel" or "health and wealth gospel." Supporters claim that God is eager to shower worshipers with money, promotions, large homes, and new cars, citing such verses as Malachi 3:10: But the Bible abounds with passages that warn of pursuing money instead of God, such as 1 Timothy 6:9-11: Hebrews 13:5 cautions us not to always be wanting more and more: Wealth is not a sign of favor from God. Many drug dealers, corrupt businessmen, and pornographers are wealthy. Conversely, millions of hardworking, honest Christians are poor. This error is dangerous because it leads followers into a life of self-centered and selfish pursuits, disillusionment with God, and at worst, the sin of idolatry. Error #3: Humans Are Little Gods Human beings are created in the image of God and are "little gods," claim some Word of Faith leaders. They imply that people are capable of controlling a "faith force" and have the power to bring their desires into being. They cite John 10:34 as their proof text: This Word of Faith teaching is blatant idolatry. Jesus Christ was quoting Psalm 82, which referred to judges as "gods"; Jesus was stating that he was above judges as the Son of God. Christians believe there is one God only, in three Persons. Believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit but are not little gods. God is a creator; humans are his creations. To attribute any type of divine power to humans is unbiblical. Perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the Word of Faith movement is its power to deceive and entice people away from biblical truth. Since the days of the Garden of Eden, Satan has been effectively twisting the truth as a weapon against God's people. The believer's best defense against this cunning enemy is to know the truth through diligent and consistent Bible study. WordWolf, thanks for posting all that stuff! good info to have on hand Charity, I have a related incident of two cults passing in the night…actually it was daytime . In the early 80s I was working for a security company that won the bid to install a security system in Copeland’s recording studio, located at their 33-acre property. Kenneth Copeland Ministries is located in Fort Worth, Texas, on a 33-acre (13 ha) property valued in 2008 at $554,160 (equivalent to $697,454 in 2021) by Tarrant Appraisal District. The site includes the Eagle Mountain International Church, television and radio production facilities, warehouse and distribution facilities, residences for the Copeland family, and Kenneth Copeland Airport. From: Kenneth Copeland - Wikipedia Anyway…here’s a little background – which I now feel is odd and creepy in so many ways…By this time I was already very active in TWI, running a fellowship, assisting in running classes, in a TWI-believer band playing at coffee houses that doubled as Public EXs, and helping to promote and coordinate advances. Around this time my wife and I were deciding to go into the Family Corps. I was the lead tech on the Copeland installation. I met with Mr. Copeland several times over the layout and features he wanted and areas he was concerned about. Let me say upfront he was very personable and seemed approachable – not only observing my own interactions but with those of his staff. He didn’t seem to give off any weird vibe to me – not like wierwille or LCM who I always felt carried themselves with an air of royalty. Anyway, he gave our installation crew the grand tour of the recording studio and seemed to know what he was talking about when he explained every detail, right down to the dedicated circuits with an isolated ground for recording gear, amplifiers and musical instruments. Wiring up all the security equipment and making tech notes for the panels in the communications room took me about ¾ of the day. Mr. Copeland would pass by occasionally with a friendly check-in, saying how he was always fascinated by electronics and how stuff like that is put together. Before anyone’s imagination runs amuck – let me just say nothing weird happened while I was there. I’ve reflected on that installation a few times and I find it strange and sad to remember where my mind was at and can only imagine what Mr. Copeland thought. Job poaching is a common thing – especially in highly skilled technical services – so as cordial as Mr. Copeland was in showing off his studio I’ve wondered if he had me in mind to work there in some technical capacity.... I’m loyal to a fault when it comes to any company I’ve worked for – but I think my attitude of spiritual superiority thinking TWI is the only ministry rightly dividing the Word and company allegiance may have been double insulating – don’t know for sure but that may have come off like giving him the cold shoulder to his warm welcome....I'll never know..I just like sharing my stories of when cults collide - I've shared before about witnessing to a Moonie when I was a WOW...what a small world. what are the odds? How ironic for me in my cult thinking I was better off than following his cult…what a precarious way to determine if some group is a cult, by seeing how they stack up to ‘my’ biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry of TWI.
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  20. "My hunch is that in 1968, the plan was to have the GP explained better in the Intermediate and Advanced classes. " Your IMAGINATION to the side, the Intermediate was completely redone from vpw's TIP class to Burton's Intermediate class, at vpw's direction- and yet there was no addressing of the so-called "Great Principle." If there was going to be a better explanation, there would have BEEN a better explanation. Since the GP is nonsense, there will be no better explanation- just your imaginary word-salad and excuses as to why vpw had the opportunity to do so, but never did.
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  21. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee Here we go. The Mormons have a committee for detecting critical statements from members. Findings are forwarded to local leaders for excommunication due to apostasy. I think every cult has one of these!
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