Keith

I usually avoid talking Trinity with anyone. One of the main reasons is that I've found so many people and denominations define the term differently and if I don't fully understand what they mean by the term we often just confuse each other. While the original post is the first time I've heard those terms, I've run into the basic ideas behind them several times. It sounds like a good study to get into though.

I guess I wouldn't have given it much thought. I actually didn't sponsor anyone until after I left TWI. Before I was thinking of leaving I told them if they were accepted I would sponsor them. I felt even though I had left and wasn't happy with TWI I should still keep my promise. If they had left before they finished I would most likely have rejoiced. Instead they finished and then left. I still rejoiced.

I've had a few things like this happen in my life as well. I've also had times when I felt strongly that I needed to leave a place. I think it's possible that had I stayed something might have happened, but honestly I don't know. Mostly as mentioned I just try to use my head and trust that God will get my attention if I'm about to mess up badly. I've never felt like a superman, just blessed. Like someone else mentioned I believe revelation is God's prerogative not ours. I will mention three incidents, you can take them however you wish, I can't prove any of them to you. Once, a long time after leaving TWI, while studying a passage I remember thinking about how a passage might related to a another one and looked at the other Bible on the table that happened to be open to that passage. It was short time later that it dawned on me I only had one bible out and there was now no sign of the second Bible on the table I was sitting at. The second was a time when I walked into the house while my wife was cooking fish and it smelled strongly of s**t. The smell disappeared once I realized it seemed to be coming from the pan of frying fish and threw it out. We looked at the rest of the package and quickly realized it had gone bad. Of course this last could have been usual sense of smell. The third I've mentioned on this site before and while they were two separate events that day I think of them as the same. When I began returning to God after 13 years because I still distrusted church I went back to TWI headquarters with my wife and some friends knowing only that VPW had died since I left in '76. The first thing I saw when I got out of the car was a tree that was dying from it's roots. There were a few good leaves and branches on it, but it looked terrible on the trunk and near the ground. Then as I sat in the Auditorium and looked around I kept seeing patches of plaster fall from the wall with worms and decay underneath. I think I was getting a pretty clear picture of the state of TWI. So yes I believe in revelation.

It's not that off topic. The rise in profanity should have have been clear indication that it was time to bolt.

And you can imagine what they thought of me when I, along with my wife and several friends walked in wearing jeans and T-shirts and sat front Row center for the service. My second clue that should have led me to bolt earlier was the amazing amount of profanity in the teaching. Yeah, VPW did a little from time to time, but this teaching by LCM was filled with it.

Just for the record, I didn't say VPW didn't rip off Kenyon. Just that at least when I was in he promoted Kenyon's material. I don't want to get into a discussion about Four Crucified. But I've read a lot of research stating two and that stating four (Not TWI or offshoot stuff) and I still find Four makes more sense to me, so I don't totally agree with you there. But as you stated VPW's "research" is flawed and incomplete, I would give you that. On the other hand, I don't think it really matters that much either. Personally if I think about how often the Romans practiced crucifixion I would be surprised if there weren't a lot more than four crucified at the same time he was. But I'm derailing the thread and I shouldn't. The first time I was involved with TWI I wasn't given the option to bolt. They just sort of disappeared from my life. In reality, I came back briefly in the late 80s and basically I did bolt. But not as fast as I should have. I should have bolted when I walked in to HQ for the first time in 15 years and saw everyone dressed up in formal dress rather than Jeans and T-shirts which was the norm when I was first there.

VPW may have ripped off Hagin, but he did not rip of Kenneth Copeland. Kenneth Copeland's ministry is not really old enough for him to have done so. I never thought of VPW as ripping off Kenyon either since they made available most of his books, at least when I was in, I was able to buy many Kenyon books through the bookstore. At least at the time VPW was fairly honest about what he got from Kenyon. Can't speak for the years after '76 when I left.

I no longer think in terms of "Moving the Word." I think in terms of "Sharing the Gospel." While in TWI I did think I was sharing the gospel by sharing the PFAL. It is often a fine line between sharing the gospel and sharing a specific doctrine. Just as there is often a fine line between giving your life to God and giving your life to a ministry (i.e. organization) It was quite a while before I realized that I had confused God with the Ministry. I'm so thankful now that I have it at least someone straighten out. And I've been out since the mid '70s.

I do make a difference between faith and believing. Faith has the idea of faithfulness and steadfastness and confidence. Believing is basically a one time thing. I might believe someone, but not have faith in them. I also define faith as that which you believe to the point that affects your thoughts and actions. Or as specifically applied to God and His Word, Faith is having a steadfast confidence that what God said will come to pass and if God didn't say it all the "faith" in the world will not bring it to pass in your life. God's grace make what we have faith in available to us.

Just a quick input to this discussion regarding "The earth was/became without form and void." This was something that always bothered me because every single translated the word as "was" so I took my BibleWorks program and looked up every single usage of the word here. It's been a few years so I don't remember what the word was, but I do remember the result. Every usage of the word indicated a change in status or nature in of the object or situation being talk about. Every single one of them, no exceptions. Some of them weren't immediately obvious as the what the change in nature was, but it always indicated a change. As a result, we I read this verse I almost always read it as "the earth came to be without." I would have to say from my limited understanding what we were taught regarding the earth being created in one state and form and changing to a different one, for whatever reason, appears to be correct. I also believe it fits in with science quite a bit better.

I have to admit, two TWI terms I did like were Retemory and Advance. I liked the idea of Retain in Memory and Advance in knowledge. It doesn't mean the terms weren't used to imply a difference between "us" and "Them" and used badly as a result to help control us.

In a minor response to the first post regarding the blue sheets. While TWI may have used them to monitor and confront your giving the actual record keeping that it entailed is also required by the US IRS and many state governments as well, so I can't fault them for the record keeping ...just how they used it.

I never took his advanced class so I wouldn't have known that. While I was in TWI I never really had any problems with local leadership.(72-77) If I had a problem with doctrine or something going on I always sent a letter to either VPW or when I very briefly came back in the 90's, to LCM; because that was where the problem was. Little did I know how big the problems were at the time. I understand one of those letters resulted in one of LCM's rants to the in residence corps. Sorry about that.

I wouldn't attend any twig or religious service that worshiped anyone or anything except God and His Son. That said I will say the best advice I ever got when it comes to the bible I got from VPW. Maybe it was a moment of honesty from him; I don't know. The only time I really met him he looked me directly in the eye and said. "Son, don't ever take anyone's word for what the word of God says." Then after a pause he added, "Not even mine." That was something I have always practiced. It got me in hot water in TWI, and it's gotten me in hot water with other groups as well.

If I remember right, I think this isn't likely. I seem to remember him making a reference to a colonosopy bag and liquid diet. But I may be remembering wrong.

I don't know that LCM learned that attitude from VPW. At least during the short time I was in He recommend in a teaching once that leaders send alcoholics to AA rather than try to help them themselves. He may have very well changed his attitude later. Seems like He did did that on a lot of things.

I still read the KJV mostly just because I did most of my study in and out of TWI with it so it triggers my memory. Plus it is a beautiful translation, very poetic. But I love so many of the other translation as well. Sometimes if I just want to read for enjoyment and broad meaning I pick up The Message. It is very paraphrase, but it is enjoyable to read.

If I ever heard that TWI had changed and was turning back to God one of the first places I would look would be their music. I would look to see if it praised and gave glory to God, if there was real joy in the singing and playing and heart behind it; if there was...maybe there would be a chance that it was really happinging.

I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becoming less joyful and more plastic. I have the feeling that the early on most of the musicians sang from their heart and enjoyed playing and really meant to praise God with what they sang. When I visited much later, in the 90's I found not only Way Productions plactic, but the entire ministry. I remember commenting to my wife, "They took the Joy out of Joyful Noise." I sing for our church at nursing homes and often sing a couple of songs from Joyful Noise's first album, the old people there really like Give Christ a Try, Christian Man, and Ready to Go.

Please don't take this wrong, it isn't meant as a critism of you, but of TWI and many other teachers who were never involved in TWI. The I had full faith..."in his; in them"; indicates the problem. We weren't really taught to have faith in God. Instead we had faith in our faith or the faith of others. I'm not surprised to hear VP might have sent out spies to suss the area. It's an old trick, and one a lot of "ministers" used, not just VP. I have known people who really do hear from God and I have seen some miracles as well. But I have seen a lot of people try to pass off knowledge received on the sly as revelation too.

I guess "in spite of" might be their assesment. But I don't think it's God's.

Praise God for the donation. I wouldn't say dispite TWI, I would say it happened because you left. You found a group, one of many outside of TWI, that actually practices what they are taught.

Depends on the situation.

They sit on my shelves for the most part never used. Though I do use the NT aramic interliner from time to time. I have a lot of Greek and Hebrew dictionaries and interliners that I use a lot it's one among the many. I might use one of the other books from time to time because the teaching is sound "You are Righteous Now" comes to mind, but I haven't looked at it for about four or five years so I can't say for certain. Honestly, I think the last time I opened one of the other books was because I was trying to remember a verse that for some reason I had blanked out and after all those TWI years I still remembered it was quoted in one of the collaterals even if I no longer agreed with the teaching in the collateral. I don't hid my association from the way. I feel that I should be honest about my background with any church I work with. It's helped them to understand me sometimes when I accidently use way-speak. But it has also helped them help me. I'm also honest about my drug & booze years in the late 60's and early 70's. A long time ago I decided that I would make my life story available to any who wanted to know it. It's kept a few people from making the same mistakes or worse.

I was going to ask if you'd seen or heard of the documentry Marjoe but it appears to be out of print. Here's a link to the book. He's a perfect example of what you are talking about - and he became just about as dishonest in his ministry as people we know of....except he activly did not try to hurt the people he fed off of. http://www.amazon.com/MAJOE-The-Life-Marjoe-Gortner/dp/B002SQY7VM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336084238&sr=8-1