JustSayNO

Just got an email from a friend still in. The last fellowship in his state is disbanding and he mentioned no Advanced Class this year. Dont know if he meant this past summer or if he was referring to next year.I know its vague info, but I respect him too much to share which state and I havent gotten a reply to elaborate on the Advanced Class. 

Just a FYI.

Terry Predmore

I don't know Terry personally. I've met him a couple times, but know his sons. The entire family left back a couple years ago. Terry wrote an awesome multiple page letter that he sent out to all the leadership and people in the fellowships.

It was quite a remarkable and a very well written letter that hits home on so many levels and gracefully and "Bluntly" tells The Way off. If I have all my facts right, 1 or 2 entire fellowships of people left with or because of him and his son, who was running another fellowship in town. If his sons are any example of the type person Terry is then he must be one Heck of a guy. Apparently others felt the same since they left with them. Beyond that, I dont know much about what they are doing now. I know one of his sons is deeply involved and extremely happy with Larry and Connie P's group. They are still in OH and am fairly sure they can be reached by a simple web search.

....... a few minutes later....

I found the letter and will attempt to copy it here for you. It was quite moving and hope more people "in" can take it to heart.

November 20, 2005

Dear Believer,

For years I have taught our fellowship that the greatest duty man has to himself is to keep God first, and that a man can only do this as he is true to his own convictions and inspiration as the spirit of God works within him. I also told our fellowship to never become mechanical at living their lives, that life is not made up of one verse answers. There are no slick formulas or scripts. With that said, I believe our ministry has become a ministry governed by scripted living and fomulas for thought. Why do the S.T.S. all start out with everyone wanting to set forth three points of interest from God's Word? What if God only wanted to make one point, or four? I am not asking this question to be cute or critical. It is an honest question! God can never be scripted, and you men , leaders sit and say nothing! The three points we should be making are doctrine, reproof and correction. But there is no reproof and correction set forth, and you say nothing. Wonderful men and women read their scripted teaching verbatim, and you say nothing. If he could, what would Dr. Wierwille say, nothing?

As great as they are, God can never be contained in a handful of collaterals. None of us can be true to God until we are true to ourselves first. Why would a man born again with the spirit of God energized within him need a teaching calendar sent to him to promt him on what he should teach his fellowship? God either gives that man the inspiration to teach to the needs of his fellowship or he does not. As versitile and complex as life is, how can we broad stroke our ministry with a teaching calendar.

The needs of God's people cannot be scripted, and you sit and say nothing. One of my greatest fears through the years via those teaching calendars was that I did not want to become a lazy coordinator depending upon someone else to figure out what I should be doing with the fellowship. Dr. Wierwile once said a true man will have superb confidence in his own inspiration, desire, and ability. I still believe that. Why would any of you wonderful men need a teaching calendar? God forbid! There is nothing spiritual about us all being on the same page at the same time, that is spiritualism.

Dr. Wierwille once said a man's willfull decision toward duty determines his virtue. Virtue is a man's fixed attitude toward his ideals. What are our ideals, have we become lost, have we lost our way and sense of direction? It seems like we all want to become a professional believer. Jesus Christ was not a professional believer, he was a blue collar believer. God does not want professionals, he wants fishermen! He wants people that will get their hands dirty! We could never have another Howard Allen, our ministry would not allow it. Howard, such a wonderful, decent, common man, a true fisherman.

Cindy and I cannot at this time in a good and clear conscience before God continue to support this ministry, nor do we have or feel malice toward any one of our Brothers or Sisters in Christ. As I pen this letter before God our father I am reminded that we are all God's children just trying to do the best we know for our father. I guess we just have different ideas on how to do that, just like Paul and Barnabus. I have always been moved by the fact that God never condemned either man. God looked on their heart and knew that each man was following his heart, inspiration and ideals on how best to serve his father. It is great how that God has accepted all of us for better or worse.

In spite of all our brilliance and all our stupidity, God still takes care of us all. We have never been especialy favored because we are a research ministry. We have been especially favored because we are God's kids and he has spoiled us. No doubt we have al been through a lot and been pretty beaten up over the last few years, but we are better for it because we continue to stand for God.

I trust this letter will communicate our heart to you all, as well as our frustration with what we see as a scripted ministry. We have a script, a formula, a cerain way to act, a certain way to speak, a certain way to respond, a certain way to ask something. We are wore out with it. I do not blame the Board of Directors. We have told them what we think they wanted to hear. We should have told them what they needed to hear. In reality, we have sat and said nothing! And we are seeing the lack luster of interest because of it. Cindy and I are not unique in our perceptions, the believer in you fellowships are full of the things I am writing about and they do not speak up out of intimidation and fear of condemnation. They can suppress it all they want, but it will not go away.

There have been tremendous believers in our ministry that have lied about being in debt so they could continue to be a part of our classes. How excruciating and degrading that must have been for them? God bless their hearts. It is amazing the legalism we have put on the backs of God's people and called it God's Word. So many wonderful people pure and child-like before God, and we as leaders trashed their hearts. May God have mercy on us all! I would not want it if it was the truth. God will not stand for it. Love and inspiration move men and women to God, not scripts and formulas. Movies are scripted. I am still not being critical, I am just telling you what God has already told you in your heart and you have thought about a thousand times. May God help you to speak up! In closing, I would like to share a line from Dale Wimbrow:

You may fool the World down the pathways of years, and get pats on the back, as you pass; But your only reward will be heartache and tears if you've cheated the man in the glass!

We are eternally linked with you by the spirit of God. May we always love and care for one another!

Terry & Cindy

Forgive me for any typos I may have made copying this and hope that Terry and Cindy are not upset that I have taken the liberty to share it here where people can read what is needed to be heard and not "Say Nothing". I wish this had been written and made available when I made the decission to leave. It would have saved many agonizing hours of condemnaation and arguements with myself.

-JSN

Thanks!

Good to hear, look forward to see how it works.

EDIT:- nevermind, it would only fuel the fires.

But Abi, I feel ya, take care.

From: Boot the Wierwille apologists

...For the most part, I agree with the above statement made by Linda. The exception would be that I do not think that deliberately interupting and insulting people as they give their testamonies and causing those threads to disintigrate should be included in "allowing those with unpopular opinions their voice".

A desire to see civility and good manners in certain situations should not be construed as an effort to silence opposing views...I have no desire to see this place become a mutual admiration society of likeminded greasespots...I encourage people to express their individuality, to debate and to disagree...but deliberate attempts to to discredit people as they give their personal testamonies and thus minimilizing the damage inflicted by twi should not be tolerated...especially at an anti-twi website...There should be SOME limits on what is allowed.

IMO.

Easy solution,

Civility would entail taking a debate on someone elses thread and starting your own. And labeling it "DEBATE- whatever the topic is" that way people know it is an open thread for controversy. that way you can have at it all you want there. And if someone insists on derailing an defacing someone elses thread, then they are destructive, being intentional in their actions and deserve to be banned for being an uncivalized troll.

again, my opinion

This was a response on another thread I think would be better posted here.

Most excellent video!

ps.

on the youtube page there is a a line of code you need to copy, its right of a video, just below the description and labeled embed.

copy that here and make sure HTML ON- Auto Linebreak Mode is selected in post options

that easy

...For the most part, I agree with the above statement made by Linda. The exception would be that I do not think that deliberately interupting and insulting people as they give their testamonies and causing those threads to disintigrate should be included in "allowing those with unpopular opinions their voice".

A desire to see civility and good manners in certain situations should not be construed as an effort to silence opposing views...I have no desire to see this place become a mutual admiration society of likeminded greasespots...I encourage people to express their individuality, to debate and to disagree...but deliberate attempts to to discredit people as they give their personal testamonies and thus minimilizing the damage inflicted by twi should not be tolerated...especially at an anti-twi website...There should be SOME limits on what is allowed.

IMO.

Easy solution,

Civility would entail taking a debate on someone elses thread and starting your own. And labeling it "DEBATE- whatever the topic is" that way people know it is an open thread for controversy. that way you can have at it all you want there. And if someone insists on derailing an defacing someone elses thread, then they are destructive, being intentional in their actions and deserve to be banned for being an uncivalized troll.

again, my opinion

Hey Raf,

Good Luck!!

I'm going on 5 years myself. I tried for years to quit without success. Then a family member went into the hospital for surgery and came out of it requiring to be on a breather. They were told to quit. So I decided to quit with her. Either all my family smoked or had never smoked; so either they couldn't relate or would be hypocites when it came to support. I went to CVS and bought 3 boxes of the patches and 1 pack of cigs. I went home and enjoyed them for the next 24 hrs and then decided it was time to quit.

I was still in TWI but highly aggitated with them. I will credit them with teaching me how to make a decision and stick to it.(this and leaving them were the 2 best decisions I ever made while still in TWI) So I didnt remove any old packs of cigs from the house or throw my lighters out, I just put them away and said that my decision was final, I was quitting. Now I had a few days off from work and that helped get over the quick hump. on the 3rd day I got called into work for an emergency. I went and got some Starburst to chew on and had a big ole paperclip to play with to keep me distracted. I tell you, that was the most God awful 3hrs of my life. Every piece I chewed and every twist and twiddle of that paperclip only reminded me of how much I wanted one. I had done better the first 3 days than I was doing right then. So I made a decision to just "make the decision"(if that makes sense) that I hadn't quit, I just didn't want anymore cigarettes. If I had one it wasnt a failure, I would just move and not have anymore. Not that I did have any, but it took the stress off.

I never put the patch on at night because it made me twitchy all night, so the next day I forgot to put the patch on before work. It was a bit rough but by the time I got home it was too late to put one on or I would be up all nght. Well I overslept and ran out of the house the next morning, forgeting again. Well, same thing again, no patch cause i got off late. the next morning I took the patch with me to work but (LOL) forgot again. So that night I was like, why bother anymore. I had only used 3 patches of 1 box and had 2 full ones left, So I took them to work and gave em to a coworker and havent looked back since.

Speed forward 6 months, I get a phone call from a friend who was really having a hard time in life and they lived 8hrs from me. It was apparent from the time I picked up the phone that they were drunk. Well this person was contemplating suicide quite vocally. I was getting stressed out and found my old pack of cigs and lit one up while listening. I took 2 puffs off of it and said to myself silently "Hunny, I luv ya and would do anything for ya, except this" and threw it in the toilet. Needess to say it was a false alarm and nothing came of it. And to this day I've yet to have another lit one in my mouth.

Oh, and that relative never did stop smoking <_< Oh well, ya me!!

So, you can do it, just keep distracting yourself. Remember if you dont make a decision, its quite possible that when you stop taking that stuff that you might start up again by using it as an excuse for why you didnt have one. It's Willpower, willpower willpower!

Good luck

I looked behind the curtain and ran screaming from the room.

Nice and well thought out.

Did you mean this one? If so, it was pretty hilarious.

OMG,

that was sooo funny and bad at the same time.

I agree with you 100% in this regard. I'd like to add, we cannot expect that someone fresh out of TWI is going to come here having already shed themselves of everything they believed while in TWI. People who are newly out, in particular, are going to be "pro" at least to some degree.

Absolutely!

hi combination, what a good name !!!

what are these ? just thinking out loud. we are people. very different very whatev ;)

I think it was a referal to the pro vs anti Wierwille and the long-time posters

Thank you for the reply. I hope this isn't the case as far as new posters go. I remember being one like it was yesterday -- and believe me, in my opinion, this is a kinder, gentler place.

I agree about "they" can be lonely too :(

I sincerely hope that a new person will not go away because of wordsmiths. They can be an attack unto themselves which I'm familiar with. I hope new posters can see and be thankful for differing opinions. But I hope it's not a pipe dream. Pond was making good points about how you get to know everyone and what's going on here.

Like I said before, I'm not sure, even though I take it you think I should be. No offense in any way.

But I hope when I tell what happened to me, the new person will know I speak honestly and from my heart.

That's all for now :) Thanks.

Sweet excathedra,

I feel like you think I've attacked or dont care about your experiences. That's far from the truth. I feel for you and everyone here who has been hurt by the ministry no matter how it happened. We are all victims to some degree or another, but some like yourself have apparently hade some true horrors in your past and if I coud take those memories away so you could live with out it I would.

I guess I'm coming at this whole thing from a totally different angle than everyone and am tired of the fight so to speak. I wrote this to someone in a PM and they asked that I post in the forum. So even though it isn't directed at you or your experience, this thread is probably still the place to post it

Quote from a PM:

.......We keep harping on a dead man, and his ministry. truth be told, it's not his anymore. If anything its more Craigs. Anyway, things change and although its still a cult and has many flaws it is not the same mnistry it was during VPW's time. those that are active here for the most part are relics of an old ministry and can no more relate to the current one anymore than those lifers in the ministry can relate to the real world of today. They as well as here have not moved with the changes of time. The last five years in the ministry I think the nly time his name came up was just in rememberance. He by most of the younger generation is considered an old wine skin. The same can be said of Craig too. They have moved on and if people here wanna help and relate to those still in then they need to really find out what the current mindset is and appeal to that.

So in general I have no beef with anyone here, it's just the ebb and flow of the overall tone. I dont see it being helpful, but more destructive. ....

As I stated in another thread...

Well, I said my peace on the subject and offered my opinion as to an easy solution, I'll fade into the background now.

What Pawtucket decides to do will determine if this site is useful to me anymore and if I will choose to point people toward it in the future.

I belonged to The Way once, I'll not put myself in another place that is uncivalized and thrives on strife or strict adherence of particular viewpoints.

good luck.

Well, I said my peace on the subject and offered my opinion as to an easy solution, I'll fade into the background now.

What Pawtucket decides to do will determine if this site is useful to me anymore and if I will choose to point people toward it in the future.

I belonged to The Way once, I'll not put myself in another place that is uncivalized and thrives on strife or strict adherence of particular viewpoints.

good luck.

I think grease spot has alot of very accurrate information about twi that can not be disputed.

But this never ending cat fight stops some from seeking that info .

Great statement, I truely think your right.

I seldom post for just that reason and it's gotten worst as the years go on. Imagin the innes looking in and instead of finding info pertaining to The Way, all they find is in-fighting here instead of the information that may lead them out.

Some of you may say that if they searched for it they could find it. True but most people only look as far as the first page until they get comfortable with what they see, then they dig deeper. If all they see is a page of people arguing about who did what and how, the it only supports there dogma of peopleget possessed and fall apart after leaving The Way.

Look at the first couple pages in The "About the Way" from that innie or family member or supportive friend and see if you can find some prevelant honest helpful info. There are snipets of info, but most is either redirecting and earlier point from another thread, amultiple page sage or more recently all the attacks and btching. If I was new, I'd walk away after the 1st 2 threads. That's why I posted a possible help in Pawtuckets thread. This place is becoming uncivilized.

Again, just a different viewpoint.

So then, my suggestion is that no changes are needed. We already have a decaf forum, for those who find the regular crowd too rough. We also have some strong advocates among us for those who have been hurt, and they are not shy about helping newbies, and going after anyone who goes after them.

I, agree with you on everything you've said but believe that the decaf forum should not be the exception. It intones a place for those that are too weak to get involved with the heat of the average conversation and bad-mouthing is acceptable behavior. It also indicates that since we have a decaf forum that the main forum people have the right to say whatever they choose regardless of the impact.

I personally feel that it should have been swapped around and have an extra-caffinated forum instead, for that in itself would indicate without having to change a single rule that when thing get too heated they just take it or start it up in the other forum. It also states witout saying it that the main thrust is to be civil but doesnt hinder people from saying what they really want, only directs it to a more appropriate place and those that feel they want to get involved with it can do so without forcing the entire community to have to endure it.

To leave it the way it is, is to indicate that the standard here is that most of the threads should be and have a right to be heated and uncivallized(slight exageration for emphasis) in the main About the Way forum and "if you don't like it or are a wimp" then go play in the decaf playpen. personally I think civillity should be the standard, hence why I think this whole problem is occuring. It was just a logistical mixup when setting up categories I believe it could resolve many of the issues currently present or atleast confine them to an appropriate arena because as much as there are many very valid points here that need to be addressed, it takes away from the focus of the website by bickering and acussing and venting these personallity issues in the main forum instead of keeping it on track.

And it keeps it simple for Pawtucket because he doesnt have to think up new rules or redefine them and then have to think of every possible angle that it could be twisted to someones advantage. all he does is make a new subcategory in the "About They Way" and call it "Darkroast Blend". It's kinda like the Soap Opera but right insde the "About the Way" catergory easily accesible and topics can be started there instead of Paw having to move them because they have gotten out of hand. and get rid of the decaf category.

Hi, guys,

Sorry for any confusion my post caused.

It was really me, John Knapp, posting -- although the poster showed up as "JustSayNO." Some kind of system error took place.

I'm not sure what happened. I hadn't registered for the site yet, but I just hit "reply" anyway. Apparently the system logged me in as JustSayNO, but it never asked me for a password or anything.

I foolishly thought the system had given me a default handle. Now, that I think about it, I've never seen that happen anywhere else, so I don't know why I thought that.

I didn't have JSN's password or other login information. Sounds like a security hole that needs to be fixed!

I'm sorry for any inconvenience or worry that I caused. I've already replied to an email from JSN and one from Michael explaining what happened.

I am a legitimate cult counselor and have done some work with TWI members. I think Michael will be posting a link to my site on his cult resources page.

I understand why the GSC community would be concerned about trolls or security breaches. I share your worry!

If I can answer any questions or be of ANY help, please don't hesitate to post me directly here or email me at jmknapp53@gmail.com. (A couple of forum members have written me already.)

John M. Knapp, LMSW

Therapist. Counselor. Coach.

KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cults.html

John,

I think she was refering to this comment.

is there room in that analysis for someone who is just lonely?

not just talking about myself either

Sure,

But keep in mind, the more you do something the better you get and after, oh, I dont know after 2,000, 3000, maybe 5,000 posts you become pretty knowledgable with the current ebb and flow of the forum here and kinda know how people are going to reply and how to reply to get the response wanted, which IMO makes that person a proffessional poster.

And they can be lonely too :(

But my point was the new person and the casual poster can not compete with the wordsmiths who have made a committment here(i'm sure each has there own reasons)by the numerous posts they contribute to the forum and the casual or new person can feel either attacked, feel like they are not wanted unless they agree with the long-timers, dont bother commenting or walk away because of... what's the word... the "charged atmosphere" here. If people cant feel comfortablle making comments, expressing opinion or asking questions then it can drive away the new and curious before they ever get involved And it happens from both sides of this issue.

I'm a staunch supporter of the underdog - the unqualified, the uncommitted and the newperson side of this issue. Just because the victims(and defenders) and the applogist are loud and voiceful doesn't mean there aren't other sides being affected here, they are just more quiet(except me)

Just so you know,

As soon as I spoke the Word the @$$hole came out of hiding. Tried to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about, and paraphrased God's Word, like it made him cool. And then he said go witness to someone new. Like he is above it all and i should kiss his ring or something.

I was being nice to the guy. Nice.

I feel stupid. But I tried to reach out.

So be it.

Hey Lucy,

I'm soooo sorry you got slapped by his holiness, unfortunately since I know of him as well, it didnt come as a shock. I feel bad for you because I thought maybe, someone might have gotten through to him. I guess not, but dont take it personally, it wasn't you, he does it to alot of people.

A few years ago he lost some fellowship coordinators ( for the same reasons you just explained, his inability to deal with people)and apparently HQ heard about it and instead of booting him, at the next placement offered him the opporunity to run Way Productions. He had "cough" bought a house with his brother's money(i think it was called, being given it technically) and refused to go to HQ and I think they moved him from full-time to part-time, took away his branch of 7-10 fellowships(minus those that left on his watch) and in turn gave him a branch of 2 fellowships, his and another that whorshipped the ground he walked on.

If they still hold to the same rules as they did in the past, part-time Way Corp is non-paid, which would make sense as to why he made the CD. Part in rebellion of being demoted, part in relief of not being full time and feeling like he has the freedom to do his own thing again and partly because he probably needs to feed his family.

So I wouldn't be suprised if he has turned more hostile, I was hoping that incident might have opened hs eyes a little, I guess not.

JSN

Why do you ask?

Hey Rocky,

Do you just enjoy arguing?(no answer needed)

I made my suggestion to Pawtucket and I'll let him decide if it's useful or not.

Frankly, having left twi 22 years ago, I have absolute ZERO concern about what "Mr. Linder & friends" think, say or do.

And it's quite human for this type of situation to be occurring. That there is disagreement here means NOTHING as to whether or not twi is or is not good/evil, from God or otherwise...

It certainly does make sense.

I see you chose to reply to the latter and least part of my post instead of that which I was commenting back to you originally on.

This a perfect example of the stupid nitpicking that goes on here, on both sides of that proverbial fence that fuels fires. Instead of responding back to the main topic of my reply to you on burdening Pawtucket and rules, you choose to rip apart my sideline "statement of emphasis" about The Way and rationalizing this disgusting situation that this site is falling into by saying it's human for it to happen.

And as to that, you Do care about what Linder & Friends (The Way) DO or you wouldnt be on an (anti) ex-Way site 22yrs after leaving.

I hear you JSN.

Sounds almost like the super-caffeinated Forum would need to be like the Soap Opera Forum and the Politics and 'Tacks forum - hidden. - But I wouldn't want the stories of abuse to be hidden. I'd rather see the more "lively" threads hidden.

Hope this all makes sense.

Agreed

There was that sickening little saying I heard in TWI:

"It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."

It became a game.

I know that in essence starting a sub-category for those that want to cross-examine and undermine victims' stories is a rule of sorts, it gives also limits those posters who are guilty of such.

It's hard enough to get up the nerve to post a story of abuse, much less have to think about what thread to post it on. And to have to think about starting a brand new topic in a sub-forum specifically for that - I dunno... seems more like having to whisper a secret all over again.

The attacks are the problem- put the limitations on the problem, not the victims.

You may be right, but since i dont fall into either category and have been watching this site deteriorate over the last couple years, I'm just making a suggestion.

But I will say this much, if it isn't resolved, I'll just move on from here and not look back. this has turned into a place for the "in" crowd to hang out and very unappealing to the innie who is possibly looking for a reason to get out. I'll say that that was what was ejoyable about WayDle and the early days of GSC. Now it's turning into an internal battle of who got the biggest scar, who can yell loudest to get there point across and who has the right view and force everyone else too believe their way or Mark and Avoid them.

I'm thinking the mindset is very similar to that place which everyone professes to have left. Swapping one set of dogmatic beliefs and harsh line thinking for another. We used to get new people daily and tons of them. Now, look at it. We can say THe WAY is smaller or they hedge people in more OR we can step back and do something very "un-Way like" and self examine the current flow here and see that this place has become unappealing to those seeking to leave. Hell after watching all the bitching going on here, a few rules and fake smiles seem better staying were they are than leaving and ending up like this. look at it from their perspective,all the dissention and fighting is exactly what The Way warns will happen if you leave. What a show we're giving.

If something isn't done, then this place will be just another place for a bunch of old people to vent their displeasure on life and be just as dead as The Way and wont even realize it.