WhiteDove

June 17th......

It's been four years since my Sister Dove ,Dovey (Sandi) passed away. I have to admit I have been struggling with what to write here in this blank space for a number of days. In the end I thought of nothing better than what's been said already.

She was too young to leave us! She should be here, rocking her grandchildren and telling them dove stories. She should be killing threads, and sending Smiles', and playing with her little dogs that she loved so much, and breaking her computer yet again for the hundredth time…….

But she is not….. And the only thing breaking today is my heart…..

Today as I read through her Memorial thread the one thing that I again saw was, for those that came to know her, the difference that she made in each of their lives. Even at times when perhaps she was terribly sick herself, she always had time, and a kind word, and an ear to lend to those around her.

Dovey often loved to send out little stories that she would come across, and here is one she sent to me. Today I return it to her....

To Someone Who Made a Difference:

Two people met on the beach:

Good evening friend,

What are you doing? The one asked

I’m throwing these starfish back in the ocean.

If I don’t they’ll die up here. The other replied.

Why there must be thousands of starfish on this beach, you can’t possibly get to them all. You can’t possibly make a difference.

She smiled and picked up yet another starfish and threw it into the sea.

Made a difference to That One!!........ She said........

I can picture Sandi making her way down the beach tossing starfish into the ocean…… “Made a difference to that one too”….and laughing!

And so today as we celebrate her life maybe that is the message Sandi left to us:

Make a Difference in Someone’s Life Today! You may not get another chance……..

I miss you so much my Sister Dove.

See Ya Forever ……….

Love Your Brother Dove…….

I had lots of good times and some not so good in The Way. They were what they were, nothing more, nothing less. Not unlike most other times in life whatever the association. I've had good and bad times at the dog park, Walmart too, In fact the same could be said for this cafe. I don't see any of them as part of a charade, dance or cycle of abuse, just life experiances.

I heard very few teachings on the book of Revelation in the Corps, but many on the book of Acts.

I'd tend to agree with Linda I think Acts were covered for the years 71 & 72 Corps nights, then again in 75,76, and half of 77. The Corps notes from those years are about 500 pages alone. They for the most part cover verse by verse.

Here is a listing of books covered and the time frame for Corps nights.

Corps Notes

1973 Timothy (Sept.1973 -through Aug. 1974)

1974 Timothy (through Aug. 1974)

Ephesians (Sept.1974-June 1975)

1975 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977)

1976 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977)

1977 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977)

I & II Thessalonians (Feb.1977 - Feb 1978)

1978 I & II Thessalonians (Feb.1977 - Feb 1978)

Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980

1979 Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980

1980 Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980

1981 Ephesians (Sept.1981- through May.1982)

1982 Ephesians (Sept.1981- through May.1982)

I Corinthians (Sept. 1982)

1983 I I Corinthians (June 1983)

Galations (Sept.1983 through Nov. 1983)

1984 Philippians ( Jan.1984 through March 1984)

Colossians ( May1984 through June 1984)

Timothy ( Sept. 1984 through June. 1985 )

1985 Timothy & Titus ( Sept. 1984 through June. 1985 )

1986 Galations- ( Sept. 1986 through April 1987)

1987 Galations- (through April 1987)

E.W. Bullinger wrote in his book The Church Epistles

"These seven epistles are never given in any other order than that in which they have come down to us, and are given in our English Bibles." VPW agreed and taught the same in The Way.

Peter Wade sent this along this week and I thought I 'd pass it on for those who wish to consider such things.

link

I posted it here because it IMO has to do more with examining past teaching rather than a doctrinal debate, although I suppose it may end up going in that direction and end up needing to be moved maybe.

Bob Dylan's new album Together Through Life is out April 27 on Columbia Records

The album is all about love – love found, love lost, love remembered, love denied.

Interesting there is a vinyl release as well.

Vinyl

10 new songs including "Beyond Here Lies Nothing," "Life Is Hard" & "It's All Good"

>Pressed on 180 gram vinyl

>Also contains the entire album on CD

New tour dates for 09

The Bob Dylan Show, with Willie Nelson and John Mellencamp, will tour the United States this summer.

About the album

Listen to some new tracks here

Then again, Paul Revere got a lot of credit for the rides of a lot of people....

William Dawes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dawes

Samuel Prescott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Prescott

the REAL long-range rider, Israel Bissell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Bissell

http://boston1775.blogspot.com/2007/04/isr...-and-press.html

and the Midnight Riders

http://colonial-america.suite101.com/artic...s_april_19_1775

http://colonial-america.suite101.com/artic...midnight_riders

The Allman Brothers got a little riding I mean writing credit for the Midnight Rider as well!!!!!!

But I’m not gonna let them catch me, no,

Not gonna let ’em catch the midnight rider.

Live

There is a nice section in Mrs Wierwills book about the early board and the trustees, not one in the same. There are some letters to the board and other items that were of interest. An audit of the financial records was suggested by the board in response to any questions about the money and where it went. Ermal suggested an independent audit which was done for the 58 - 59 year as per the bylaws V.P. agreed that it should be done.

VP Wierwille, Harry Wierwille, and Ermal Owens being the trustees and others like Mal and Jan George and I believe the Doersam's Eddie and Donna and also Paul and Carol Kuck being board members. Their board was set up much like ours at the dog park where the executive officers (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer) are part of the board as well as other general board members who also may be committee heads.

There is no listing per say but the records mention some others that spoke on different things so it would be logical that their presence at the board meeting meant they were part of the board I suppose ,but they could have been guests as well. Mrs. Wierwille stated that originally VP asked 12 people to help don't know if that changed or not.

Interesting

Story

WOW a 1/2 price sale.............

HERE

Dylan - Infidels on my player........ with Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits

Neighborhood Bully

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,

His enemies say he's on their land.

They got him outnumbered about a million to one,

He got no place to escape to, no place to run.

He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,

He's criticized and condemned for being alive.

He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,

He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.

He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,

He's wandered the earth an exiled man.

Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,

He's always on trial for just being born.

He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,

Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.

Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.

The bombs were meant for him.

He was supposed to feel bad.

He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim

That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,

'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back

And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.

He's the neighborhood bully.

He got no allies to really speak of.

What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.

He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied

But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.

He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,

They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.

Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.

To hurt one they would weep.

They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.

He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,

Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.

He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,

In bed with nobody, under no one's command.

He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,

No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.

He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,

Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.

He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?

Nothin', they say.

He just likes to cause war.

Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,

They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.

He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?

Does he change the course of rivers?

Does he pollute the moon and stars?

Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,

Running out the clock, time standing still,

Neighborhood bully.

Copyright ©1983 Special Rider Music

Gosh Dove, you changed what I said and attacked me on what YOU say I said. I never intimated that you weren`t active. Please read my quote. What I ACTUALLY said was that you were not active participant in those programs.

And that is incorrect. as stated.

You also attack me on the made up premiss that I claimed to know a man or his work. I never ever said that. Are you being deliberately dishonest? Do you feel thathave anything goes in your smack downs? Why is it you feel that such nastiness is acceptable? I corrected you on your misrepresentation of my position, and yet you persist on your unwarranted snide and nastiness.

Really ? What a laugh.....

Quote #110

They have built their houses on rotten flawed foundations...sure sure, it looks like they have been repaired, strengthened, BUT .. no matter how pretty the structures they have erected on the flawed foundation, they cannot stand.

I think to continue to answere your silliness simply feeds into your feelings of self importance.

One can be geographically present and be clueless, of course, how silly, nobody disputes that. But to claim that our experiences on the wow field or in the way corpes or teachings heard and standards enforced in other states...are false, and our testimonies exaggerations...that you have a realistic understanding as to the real nature of Wierwille and martindale...what was undernieth their public persona and company manners.....well that isn`t very realistic to believe that you have an accurate picture of the entire ministry. So it appears that you try to diminish the value of everybody elses experience and testimony

You Dove, are the one that remains clueless as to the suffering and misery inflicted ministry wide by very cruel, evil men.

More made up BS show me a post where I have made such a claim on the WoW field . I have consistantly pointed out the obvious that the claims are undocumented and actually gone out of the way to note that does not negate or verify any such claims only records the facts as undocumented.

Dove were you present in twi during the homo purges? Where you one of the people who were falsely accused? Their families torn from them?? Their friends to turn from them in disgust and horror? Everything of importance ripped from your life?

I don`t think so, or you wouldn`t have made that pathetic comparison.

It's exactly the same MO. This is the way we say it is and no discussion, because we would have to answer some obvious questions like where is the documentation for the claims , any? just one? Pretty tidy package, it just insures that whatever one wants to put forth as true can be done without that silly little truth thing gettin in the way.

He can`t. But he still wants folks to believe that his second hand information is better than everybody elses first hand experiences. He has lost most of his credibility to call into question our testimonies, as we now know that he was not ever an active participant in these programs, so it appears that he is doing his damndest to attempt to destroy or discredit everyone else who present information and experience that is contrary to how he wishes to believe twi had been.

You are incorrect in your assumptions I was quite active. That's why I know what I do and it bothers you so ,because it is not incorrect unlike some quotes posted here....... If I'm so uninformed kindly correct the quote. And exactly what first hand information do you speak from? someone's post, no different than someone's phone call all words, that are not documented. How many crimes were you present at first hand , you got your info from the internet. How would you know what a man has or has not done when you have by your own admission no relationship with his work? Hardly creditable information there. Just a clue here, just because you say it does not mean it is true. Clearly you were not there yet you suppose to tell us how it was. The standard works both ways Rascal if presence is the key to creditability you lack any.

Exactly Dooj, you have two people right here at Greasespot who held a sobbing Mrs. Wierwille, most people would be stricken, disgusted at his actions, moved with compassion but Dove wants to attack Don. You have people discussing the actions of a horrible man in order to try to provide the information to help a friend who is being deceived and sucked into a proven dangerous group. Someone is being deceived into believing that twi is a Christian group with Godly doctrine.

Rather than address this lie, rather than allow people to warn someone of their impending ensnarement.... Dove wants to attack the people who have lived and dealt with these people first had, whom have had first hand experience and seen what wierwilles real nature is...those whom eventually escaped the trap.

Doreen, wierwille didn`t just drug and rape one poster here, Dot has written at length on her experiences with his expectations and ludeness towards her as well. In addition to the several first hand accounts shared here at greasespot through the years, and what wierwille did to them if they didn`t comply...there is a web site called messiah7 that has several first hand accounts of sexual abuse by wierwille. There is a book featured on the front page of this site by a woman Kristin Skedgil documenting her time in the ministry and how wierwille insisted that she have sex with him in order for her to not be suicidal. There are taped interviews to listen to as well. Any chance that your friend would read the book or listen to her recordings??

The posters here have LIVED this stuff, we know how dangerous involvement in twi is....

DOve cannot dispute these first hand accounts according to the new rules of these forums, so he will do his best to find some obscure part of someones post to pick apart. He effectively draws the focus away from all of the other meaningful information and damning accounts.

Good point Rascal it's pretty Way like to allow accusations to be made and forbid any discussion ,or creditable questioning of them. Kinda like the HOMO purge of the 90's accuse and there is no discussion. We are right. Not quite the way it works in real life is it? What's to hide? Do you fear questions? Amazing how much like those we hate we become......

Tell ya what, WD.

How's about you tell us all what it was like to live in a Way commune.

You have lived in a Way commune, no?

Indeed I have.

See, the point you can't quite seem to grasp is that it's not about geographic location, it about what happened at those geographic locations. Sure, you may have been to this place or that stringing chairs and what-not, but you were a visitor, plain and simple. You have no concept of what it's like to live a communal lifestyle 24 hours a day. If you do, then please supply some supporting information.

Really?

By the way what does this smoke and mirrors exercise have to do with the question at hand? Did stringing chairs qualify you to decide what someone does 20 years later, Does setting tables in the dinning room give you a clue as to anyone's crimes, at best you learned how to do a mundane job. All this commune living experience amounts to zero credibility for the question at hand. Moving mattresses and mowing grass some 20 years ago, hardly qualifies you to know what a person thinks or does in this time frame. Not to mention by their own admission many have said that they completed the whole program without a clue what was going on. If communal living and being there was the key to credibility in speaking as to guilt, or repentance, then by admission in the posts they prove the lack of relationship. No they relied on others words to do that which no communal living experience could do. One can obviously be geographically present and still not have a clue then again those not present can.

I've never been to Spain-----but I've been to Oklahoma.

Well, Dorian, If you were looking for examples of the long term effects of Way indoctrination, you need look no farther than this thread. Some people will go on defending VPW and his secret deviant lifestyle until they take their last breath. It's sad---very sad.

So I'm guesssing you have some reason for your claim as well since it's pretty much there in black and white. If you were looking for examples of the long term effects of GreaseSpot indoctrination, you need look no farther than this thread. It's tough when you need to deny the facts in front of your face. Oh by the way you might also point out where I defended anyone ,I seemed to have missed it. I simply corrected an incorrect statement, made up words, it appears. Easy to open your mouth and make charges then again it's pretty plain for the world to see they have no basis for those who can read. This is exactly why the Way has no problems making fools of your statements to people all they need to do is produce your made up conclusions and it's clear you don't have a clue what you are talking about. They make you out to be liars because in your hatred you fail to keep focused on the truth. If you really want to send someone off to ask questions you might just wanna stick to the truth,otherwise you just make their job easy.

No, that is what you Dove are trying to make it.

Really let me refresh your memory from post #6

Don'tWorryBeHappy

Yesterday, 02:53 PM Post #6

Group: Members

Posts: 748

Joined: 12-September 07

From: the right coast

Member No.: 3,186

then you can tell her that at least one person, (me) held a sobbing dorothea kipp wierwille in his arms in a fruitless attempt to cosole her regarding the wicked and viscious sexual perversions of her filthy fraud of a husband, as she moaned about being so "unable" to do anything to "help him".........that was on his own 1975 motorcoach..........tell her about the foolishly idealistic young twi "clergyman", who personally, face-to-face, confronted vic on his multi-generational, sexual abuse of just one family corps family, and instead of any kind of even weak denial, had the joy of having victor's guard dog sicced on him..........ask her why, in dotsie's "biography" of her "man-o-gawd" hubby, she unabashedly stated that "he was a mean man"......ask her why there are so many so-called "ministers" out there now who participated in vic's perverted debauchery of his church, who persist in "carrying on" in his stead, thinking there is some redeeming social, spiritual, or any other kind of value in perpetuating his abject human manure pile.............lemme know what she says!............peace.

Looks like what he said to me there it is in black and white,looks like you want to make it something it is not. I think we see the real truth..... By the way hows that quote search going?

okay,, this time I'm NOT going to read the whole thread,, help me out please.

What was the claim?

How was it wrong?

Oh and WD... just because someone can't prove that they are right, it doesn't mean that the are wrong.

It's pretty simple either the book states it or not ......and here you are required to back up your claims it works the same both ways...Dear

I don't think we agree at all. I think you like to twist words to make them fit what you want to say.

You know...like PFAL taught...

For the record, I think there are some points that are so obviously logical and correct that to try and repudiate them would make someone a fool.

Then there are the illogical and speculous points... or the attack on the logical points...

Really ? Let's review here, Some posters seem to be able to state exactly what another person thinks, did, or feels, based on not being there ,not being a part of their ministry, or not really having any contact within say 20 years with said individual. Based on that current (cough) information they somehow seem able to state in the affirmative exactly what they did or did not do. Never mind of course when other posters do the same they somehow are not credible due to the fact they were not there. I guess somehow when your not there and you post anti a subject it some how makes it ok. Poof your creditable....... That about sum up the illogical and speculous points for you?

Dove, I am sorry, I don`t think what you do is acceptable, no matter how you attempt to justify the nastiness :(

Of course, not having proved a claim true goes against your agenda to have only negative things discussed, can't have a negative post proved wrong. If you run out of things to say just make stuff up, BS was said I called the marker in ,it could have been easily fixed, provide a reference, but as usual fight to the death , discuss anything else ,call names, anything to get the focus off the fact that the claim was wrong. Your double standard got revealed, of course you find that not acceptable. Tooo bad it's the real world , someone wants to run their mouth about some claim, better know what you are speaking about.

While I don't think that a person that repeats a story they read as if they experienced it themselves is honest, neither do I reject a story of abuse out of hand just because it is posted in a thread, by a poster with a silly username, on the internet.

I certainly wouldn't reject a LOT of posts by different posters saying the same thing happened to THEM!

Then I would weigh it with what I already knew...

But I would never demand proof from someone who claimed to be a victim of abuse.

Didn't you learn any manners growing up, WD?

Oh so we agree that it is possible to reach the same conclusion without geographic presence ,so now we change the subject to manners rather than just sucking it up and admitting the premise was incorrect.

By the way just a few fallacies in your assumptions.....

I certainly wouldn't reject a LOT of posts by different posters saying the same thing happened to THEM!

1.Never rejected anything I only correctly stated that the story was not documented by any hard evidence other than the storytellers words . That is correct. My belief one way or the other does not affect that point. Likewise I would not reject a lot of people telling me that another side of the story was true. And a few here as well. The truth is as I have stated before, outside of a few who were there , it's all who you choose to believe based on your feelings about the Way.

Then I would weigh it with what I already knew...

But I would never demand proof from someone who claimed to be a victim of abuse.

2. Never happened, pure fiction, made up BS, I have never demanded such find it, back up your claim.

Didn't you learn any manners growing up, WD?

3. Yep I learned the difference between truth and speculation as well, also not to make claims about people that are not true, to try to prove a point that is improvable.

As I said folks - are this guys posts not just the epitome of entertainment? Come on - keep him going - geeze this is - well - minutes - of fun for me

Yeah if I could not prove my point I'd want the same it distracts from your pathetic attemp to justify that which is nothing.............Why don't you just come clean you'll feel better. Just say it ......

WD... you proved nothing.

I'll get back to you when I choose. In the meantime... please learn some rules of spelling and grammar.. and take the SAT course on reasoning.

Is there a mosquito in this thread? Oh no... it's just WD. Then again, mosquitoes spread disease...

My factual information tells me the buildings are no longer there where they once were. I believe that is correct, Case closed......I did not need to be there to know that.

Really seems like it is pretty clear , building gone ,me not there ,you there, same conclusion . Point proved......

I see you followed your predecessor in logic ,when faced with no response name calling works as a point .......NO

So that makes you special?

And yet you still choose to play the victim because you say that you're somehow locked into not talking because you can't prove what you saw - or document it.

That's the cowards's way out.

I think you misread, what I said was the standard should be the same for all it should not change because one argument is percieved as pro Way the other is anti.. If the standard is to be present personally then it should be the same for all. Personal dislikes or likes should not alter the rule. If that is the standard then only those that meet the requirement would be credible. Unless one was in attendance at a funeral ,or at a crime sceen then they are as non credible as some one who was not at a meeting both rely on outside information, which may or may not be true , as such to claim as true is yet to be proven.