engine

All the best, T-Bone. Enjoy your life and exploring on this part of your  journey.

Oh dear.

I got to know Brendy at HQ in 1980-81. He was there one of those summers. I was WC10 and my interim was at HQ.  I swear I can't remember him in my Corps exactly, but I do the rest of the Irish crew who were WC10. Dougherty and the Butterlys, was it? Reilly?

Yeah . He was a great guy. Told me some about that other "army" he came out of. Sad to hear this about Brendy. A lot of my other Irish 10th bros have passed on, too. Thx, Twinky, for posting this.

ROA Honey Wagon crew= KP duty.

Vpw thought of himself as a great general and his love of the Marines is common knowledge and we were Corps.  One quote stands out: "The request of a general is tantamount to a command." I heard that several times including the first month of first year in rez. Once vpw said it about himself all the BS Leaders started saying it. That meant that even his suggestions were to be taken seriously. That's why I read  The Source by Michner in 1982: (who I can't stand.)

The standing up reminds me of the "Ten-HUT!" seen in the WWII movies when a superior officer enters the room to give briefing at a podium. That's Military, and not Scriptural. "The mission ahead will be hazardous," we were told,"but you have been well trained and armed with the 9. Success is yours. You shall stand before Kings and Queens in the end." BS.

But Rank was all over TWI. It started with the nametags: Plastic was first, paper inferior. Rev. meant superior rank, corpse was high rank with corpse number playing into it, too. Also who is on what Board, the seniority of who had been around longer, and on and on. I'm surprised we didn't salute at HQ. Yep.  We did all but salute.

To me It started with vpw's twisted, arrogant, superior view of himself, and trickeled down to the field. I don't believe it had anything to do with standing up in Church when the  Minister and Choir come into the Sanctuary kind-of-thing. I'm surprised, now that I think about it, why there wasn't a "Standing Up Code" like there was a "Dress Code." HA! More rules to march by.

On 6/14/2016 at 10:27 AM, T-Bone said:

I'm almost halfway thru the book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief by Lawrence Wright, and then I happened upon this thread. And I thought the similarities I found around pages 177 to 182 were worth posting. I guess there's only so many ways one can try to manipulate and control people – maybe all cult leaders think alike…. I don't know…

….anyway wanted to mention a few points Wright makes that go along the theme of this thread…some of Wright's points (listed below) refer to the work of Robert Jay Lifton a young American psychiatrist who began studying victims of what Chinese Communists called thought reform:

Dogma is promoted as incontestable (or as Wright puts it scientifically incontestable).

Resistance is not just immoral; it's illogical and unscientific.

Language is constricted by thought-terminating clichés; complex issues are compressed into brief, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed.

The combination of enforced logic and clichéd discourse creates a kind of melodrama – formulaic thoughts and handicapped language substitute for real emotions and hamper a complex understanding of human nature.

Going Clear by Wright

When I began to use some newly found critical thinking skills to look at the teaching of TWI and the Bible, things turned topsy-turvy for me. As my unravelling went, I became aware that the indoctrination of TWI had limited my thinking in awful ways but wasn't exactly sure how. The last point and next to the last point above spoke loudly to me. Thx, T-Bone.

On 6/15/2016 at 12:33 AM, DontWorryBeHappy said:

But, by the time of my first year in-Rez, it was already changing. As it turned out, I had an affinity for being hailed into dictor's office over the loudspeakers in the courtyard for personal reproof and correction meetings frequently during my first 4 months in the corpse. The first one, I entered his office smoking a cigarette and sat down without asking permission. OMG!....you'd think the world was ending! Dictor screams at me, "Stand up!".

Would you walk into the office of President Nixon smoking a .... cigarette?". I quickly shot back, "I wouldn't wanna be anywhere near old tricky dick's office VP!" I was then ordered at top vein-popping volume, to get the .... outta his sight and never call him "VP" again! Never got around to yelling at me for whatever he called me in for.

But, I began to see that malignant narcissistic delusional grandeur of dictor as the man-o-gawd. Comparing himself to Nixon as worthy of the same care, concern, respect and treatment for himself as the most important man on the Earth.....the greatest Apostle since Paul in the first centur, expositor of the great mystery, whose "specialty" was "the holy spirit field" which he co-opted and blatantNtly plagiarized from J.E. Stiles, B.G. Leonard, E.W. Bullinger, Kenyon, Pillai, Lamsa, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Starr Daily, Oswald Chambers, Rosalind Rinker, F.F. Bruce, Charles Welch, to name a few of his original researchers.

 

Seems that VPW's attitude was incorporated into those early corpse real well because of all the close, personal contact they had with him. That episode with DWBH was similar to one I had with a 3rd corpse, KF. It was early summer 1974 and after 2 months of reading the Gospels solo ( I had started on my own in the evenings at 19 years old in my quest for the Truth) I was ready and yearned for fellowship. An old friend came into town and we went to a Twig. I loved it! And best of all, they were teaching from the Bible. I was learning as fast as I could and loved it. But the control mechanisms had already started to be put into place- the first was "Be on time." Sometime later on in July we had a Limb meeting at the Limb home in my city. There were about 30 of us there, and we were all seated in folding chairs that were all lined up. KF walked in and got behind the little podium,  and some people stood up but most did not including me. I was really happy to be there and innocent and wide open and KF proceeded to reprove us for 10 minutes for not respecting the word of god that he represented so stand up next time. I felt terrible. I was devastated. I had not meant to insult God. Here I was all happy and KF terrorized us. 

I can't believe I submitted to that garbage. Thx and Peace.

I left in 1986 and stumbled onto Waydale around 1999 perhaps. I spoke to Paul Allen one time, too. He was calmly furious at twi and determined to push them as far as he could. 

IMO, it was because the Allens filed suit that lcm was "fired?" as Prez and then left HQ. It was because of Waydale and the Allen's fearless approach to those bullies that this happened. LCM was forced out of the ranks. Perhaps advice from twi's lawyers to put the abuser as far away from the Corporation as possible ushered that departure forward. Later donna divorced him.

I scoured Waydale a lot and posted there, too. They took documents and other info from HQ and posted it online. For example, Waydale posted audio clips of lcm's rants from SNS teachings on all he hated, homosexuals and seed boyz and all that crap, and posted them. Having left in 1986 I was stunned at what was going on, and by how much tighter the leash had been tightened up there. From Waydale I learned about the command to tithe and the review of 1040's to check income and enforce tithing. I learned Corpse were full time per lcm. I learned that everyone within a 200 mile radius, was it??, had to attend one SNS every month because the vpw wow auditorium was not getting filled too much. I learned I was DFAC, hahaha. And there is more.

The links in this post are good, and even Waydale is linked in this site.

For me, Waydale was a great site. And, the info they had was transferred here, a lot of it, before they shut down per the settlement. I think they only had a week or so to make that transition.

Greasespot is the direct descendant of Waydale. I thank the Allens for what they did. In all sincerity, I do believe that TWI would still be in a much better position with supporters and finances had Waydale not come along.

It was also the first major site that Ex- way like me could go and touch base see some of our Brothers and Sister's from back then using Friend Finder. Before that there was really no where to go.

Hi Penworks,

Here it is from Brian Moynihan on March 30:

"For those of you who knew my dad, Bob Moynihan or Rev. Moynihan, I'm saddened to let you know that on Monday, March 28, he took his last breath and is awaiting the return of our Lord, Jesus Christ. I cannot adequately express how thankful I am for his life and the impact he had on me as a father, minister and friend.

12 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

The anxiety didn't begin or end with the class.  You had fellowships and excellor sessions regularly. I felt it for decades.  

You were being forced to interpret on the spot random noises you had made up on the spot.  The random sounds couldn't be just any random sounds either.  They had to be convincing.  The interpretation had rules.

Speaking in Tongues in TWI was abuse.  Interpretation of Tongues was indoctrination.  The process was extremely constricting.  

I could not agree more, Bolshevik, and thank you for saying it just like you did. 

I'm going to toss in Act of worship here with Belief for another angle on this.

I have read that the only religion that brings belief into the equationas the main requirement for "entry" is Christianity. For example, Jesus told people to believe in Him, or His sayings, for example. "Believe in me", He said. No other religions make believing a core tenet other than Christianity, do they? 

Other religions only have the Act of worship. For example, I know a person who places food at the feet of her idols in her  little Hindu shrine in her home. She doesn't believe in the idol- she is simply doing what she raised to do. This god has powers that other ones don't. Should she need help in another area then she goes to that god and pays homage and obesisance by an Act of worship. She does not love or adore the god. She acts as she needs to to get favor. And she only pays homage a few times a week, and in between the little visits she doen't give that god another thought. She did her part.

Should one decide crop help is needed then they might place Baal on the mantle and feed him, too. Or light candles. These are the acts of worship. No belief for results is needed. Only an Act. You could be hating that god as you place the gift at their feet, but it does not matter as long as the Act is ok because your dirty selfish impure thoughts aren't part of the deal.

There is an element of belief here in the act, I suppose, but Chritianity is the only one that says ALL you must do is simply Believe. In Pagan religions I can freely jump from one god to another as long as I can do an Act of worship.

So belief and acts are a little intertwined, but not like Christianity.

I must say that I am astounded at the things I used to believe while in the way and afterwards. I didn't begin serious  "deconstruction" until 3 years ago, unintentionally as I followed my curiosity, and what a SHOCK!  The Noahic Flood never happened! And what a shock to find a site full of former Fundamentalist and Biblical Literalist PhD's and scientists and academics that have gone through deconstruction and are flipping out over how their belief system was utterly crushed and dismantled all the way back to Genesis and Adam and Eve.

https://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/index.html

Gee whiz and LOL, I suppose. I can relate. How disappointed I was as I learned more.

That's my 2 cents that I wanted throw in here if it wasn't mentioned already. Don't mean to throw thread off. Just wanted to mention Belief vs. Acts.

Good luck all!

Found this on FB from his son Brian. 

https://www.facebook.com/brian.moynihan.397

Red Dots:

Chip S., one of the smartest guys around, was a Research Dept. fellow, and he was 6th. We are from the same city, our parents knew each other, and I hung out with him a little in Morgantown, WV at WVU before his and my corpse days. A building at WVU is named after his grandfather. Big educators that family.

Chip was in the Research Dept. at HQ and more than qualified for it. He left about 1980? for Calif. to get his PhD in Humanities. Having worked a little in the first days of JCOP with him at week seminar at Gunnison (1978) I called him in 1995 with a question on it that J. Schoe*nh**t  had asked me on it. I had been out since 1986 but, unfortunately, was getting engaged in a splinter group (DOH!). By this time he had been long gone from the way, got his PhD , was married with a small family, and was teaching at a small college in VA. 

We got caught up, and when I posed the question on the six denials of Peter there was a long silence on the phone, several seconds, and then he pointedly asked, " Are you still thinking about that " schnit?!" (censored earlier)

These days I, too, knowing what I know, do sometimes ask myself that same question. There's just no way to unravel a lot of this, and a lot of it simply does not matter. 

That laser dot example is a pretty good one. 

Peace.

According to Bart Ehrman, UNC Chapel Hill Greek NT scholar,  the KJV is the worst version for any research (study). He says that at the end. In the video link below he will take you through how, even today, any KJV version, including New KJV, still only uses the original 8 to 10  texts from the first translation for revisions or updating. They ignore all the new ones; it's really a massaging of what was done over 400 years by updating words and the like and not much else. Also, the new translations use over 5000 more texts discovered since 1611. I am trying to cite him from the video and if I err so sorry.

The folks who have worked on KJV, including our beloved 1881 Version that vpw said was one of the best translations (how would he know? LOL how would he know???) did not reference any newly discovered texts.

Well, aren't all the Concordances and other research materials are keyed to KJV?!  Hence, even more books of mine went out the door in disgust- some to the library and some to file 13.

A lot of this info is the book I posted in Doctrinal titled Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton a Methodist minister. 

BTW, Ehrman was a Fundamentalist like I was in the Way (don't know what you considered yourself to be), lotsa' classes at Moody Bible, and Literalist all the way until he began doing textual work on his Masters at Princeton University in New Jersey and he started to question some things. Like him I did, too, and I've been learning a lot the last 4 years.

I was just reminded last week that we were discouraged from outside investigation. And, we (me) did not have the internet.

Was the author of the pdf living at Defcon3 or something? Gee whiz. Red dot.

9 hours ago, Rocky said:

"Smart enough?" doesn't seem at all relevant.

I'll try and elaborate a little then to clarify.

I don't think he was savvy, shrewd, or perceptive in the way a con man (the ones I've met) are and need to be. The way their minds work, to me, seems to be particular type that sizes folks up and the opportunities they may afford in a mtter of minutes, and how to manipulate them. Geer has that kind of mind to me. 

Did it end up as a con? Yes, but perhaps it morphed into something like that because of his own flaws. And the flaws of Howard Allen (another big drinker), and others. 

I also don't think a man like him would waste all that time, a decade?, developing a class to a point where folks like Peter J. Wade and Dave Anderson and others put lots of effort into it to tape it. They would not be  "OK" with the intent to pull a massive con.

So, I don't think he or any of them had the foresight to see the opportunity that the Class would offer them as far as money and power. I could very well be wrong, Rocky. Maybe I'm still conned.

Like Waysider said, he stumbled into it. He was a swindler in that we did not get, at least I didn't, all that they said God has for us. Not even close. 

The attachement is how I see it (by Ralph). RalphDubofskySummation.pdf

Better go or I'll go off topic.

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

I don’t buy that he “fell” into taping piffle.  He spent a fair amount of time and one trip getting a remote doctorate degree that specialized in homiletics and the art of influencing people through speech.

Then he refined that in a rebel theologian image to appeal to hippies because the Ohio farmers were semi interested in his stolen classes but returned to their churches.

Then he made a power play on both coasts to usurp local ministers and their followings.

It was a planned initiative.  WOW right?

He didn't "fall" into it, but I don't think he planned anything much. He put the class together over a decade or so? Taught it to Adults. Got discouraged because the adults  (Midwesterners!) wouldn't get onboard. Taped it because Dave Anderson pushed him to (Vpw a visionary?? Nope. He couldn't even see the value of multiple classes running with with multiple income streams being generated at the same time). He took it to the younger folks somehow, found out about the hippies East and West- tapped into them with the class, and then it spread like wildfire. From what I have read, it was Del Duncan that told VPW to take over the West. At a big meeting out West Duncan got ol' vpw to get onstage and told him, esesentially, to sieze it. Tell them things are changing. So, vpw gets up there, said they were combining West with East. Then it became Way West and Way East, I think. (need Ralph).

Yes, and he donned the garb and played the role of an unorthodox Preacher. I think that was about all he could figure out. After that everything moved fast fast fast. I don't think anyone back then could keep up with the growth- it overtook them at HQ. He got a Motorcoach. Then, a plane. 

Like any good salesman vpw (1) believed 100% in his product, and (2) was enthusiastic about it, and that assuredly helped it sell. 

I saw bootleg copies of piffle a few years back. I watched a couple of random sessions and the opening session 1 for about ten minutes each. I have to tell you, the guy was good, really good, and it was easy to see how young, lost folk could  get sold and sell out to all of it back in the early 70's. Just look at me! 10th corpse!

Well, I just don't see that he ever intended to con folks because he was not smart enough like that- he used fear and bullying and intimidation. Probably one of the worst tactics in the corpse was yelling at us, dressing us all down until we felt shame and being less than. Then, he (Craig et al, too) let us stew in that for a a day, then get us all together later on and love us up real nice....ooooh- all warm and glowing now. I think I read where that's a common play of an abuser, and a lot of folks had been abused (physically or verbally or emotionally) before getting in the Way and so that felt normal.

Just can't see that he had that kind of foresight. Thx.

I don't think that he was smart enough to be a con man. I think he fell into taping piffle (Dave Anderson), young ones came in (us), money came in, and they expanded. I find no brains there at all with him. He had the farm as a starting point and had family to help out.

He was a flawed man, and those flaws permeated and influenced everything and everyone around him. His drinking was apparent during teachings as he slurred his speech, his anger was unmatched as he could melt a face, his lusts were not controlled by him, and his Germanic background lended itself to authoritarianism. Lots of fear used as motivation....there's that nasty Sand again.

I don't believe there was anything like a long-term business plan. Why? Because I don't think he nor howard or ermal or harry  knew how to do long term planning. Preparing  for the influx of people and the astounding growth would have been a touch hard to see, yes? They were flying by the seat of their pants for sure. Very few top leaders had any true leadership ability. Why were they in senior positions then? Those like the moynihans, reahards, andersons, the allens, finnegan, and on and on. They were in those positions because they were there first and not because of skill necessarily. Yes, we were led by folks who themselves needed to be led.  And vp had them under his thumb and indoctrinated with piffle.

And they kept flying by the seat of their pants as we got onboard.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:21 PM, Rocky said:

... but Martindale was using the expression well before 1995. I left in 1986 and it was already firmly entrenched in the twi lexicon by that time.

I'm a little behind on this but I left in '86 and recall hearing it before then, too. 

I wonder now why we were so afraid because, after all, we were loaded for bear with Spirit power. Hmmmmm. I guess I was in really bad shape. sigh...

But Way Productions is really humming along superbly! First rate entertainement (soooo painful to watch them onstage) with the women's midwestern hair salon hairdo's.....50 years with the same hairdos!! You can't add more starch to their acts. Gawd....

He was a musician and I had a tape of his music. A friend was at Advanced Class '75? and came back with a shoebox of his tapes- they were roomies and he told Dan he'd sell them for him. I bought one, and it was pretty good stuff. This was way before Takit and all that.

On 6/19/2021 at 12:21 PM, Kevlar2000 said:

Steve and Emily were our Branch Co-ordinators in Maryland, and were the ones who initially broke the news about the Passing of the Patriarch brouhaha, in defiance of explicit orders not to share details with us "leaves".  I always respected them for being honest with us.

 

Hey Kevlar2000,

Steve told me about all the hot water he got in because of that. So much hot water that HQ sent their plane to pick him and another high profile guy up and bring them to HQ for a grilling. He loved telling that story.

Tuesday afternoon's forecast predicted, at worst, 50 mph winds and big time rain and squalls Sunday Monday. We've had worse summer thunderstorms and low pressure systems stuck over us for days here in South Florida (Hi Raf). The track up the peninsula like Irma from Sept 2017 is eerie. My experience tells me, after 30 years in S Florida, that it's the Canes in September- October that are usually the fiercest and sometimes they come one after another. Dorian last year was nerve wracking as we waited for that Cat 5 to hit us. We were spared its awful destructive wrath, but the Bahamians weren't. The watching and waiting is killer on Cat 3's and above.

This is just a Tropical Storm at best. The anxiety of waiting for the big ones as they approach is no fun I assure you. And, the aftermath of no electricity (air conditioning) sometimes for  weeks in the super intense heat and humidity is no fun. No ice, either, so I've had to toss my entire freezer and frig contents out several times since Francis and Jeanne in '04 and Wilma in '05.

Remember, they can turn on a dime.

Hi there,

Bob is in San Diego. I saw he and Annette and their 4 sons about ten years ago. Reconnected on FB. 

You're welcome, T-Bone. 

Thank you for posting that.

This book is an easy and enjoyable read. Written from the Methodist viewpoint, it addresses inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible (it is not), the assumption of many regarding verbal, plenary inspiration (Biblical Literalism Fundamentalists cling to and demand) of II Timothy 3:16, Genesis and it's writers, how reliable are the Gospel accounts and the sources of the Gospels, suffering, homosexuality, Canonization, science and Young Earth Creationists, and on and on.

He does all this by discussing the various arguments and viewpoints in a respectful manner, and not from a Bully Pulpit. The Gospel Coalition disapproves of this book.

I turned a friend of mine onto it, Ex-Way, and she finished it in 5 days (390 pp). I enjoyed it a lot, and it answered so many nagging and perplexing questions for me. I share this, and many may know about it as it's not that new, so you can check it out yourself.

Not going to debate or discuss anything as that is not my cup of tea, thank you.  Just tossing this out there so you know about it.

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Bible-Rediscovering-Scripture/dp/0062234986/ref=asc_df_0062234986/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312111868709&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13776057707950460462&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012050&hvtargid=pla-546573317487&psc=1

It brought me a lot of peace because I had already sniffed a lot of this out myself with online articles. Had I read something like this many decades ago, I doubt I would have been sucked into the way, and for sure not the wretched corpse. 

Peace

Hi Rejoice,

I, too, was stunned after I stumbled on it. An admiration site for he who shall not be named.

Yechhhhh!

I burnt up a lot of good music Albums during those UH Days in the late 70's.

And a few books. Black smoke heavenwards. Not quite incense. Burnt the wrong books.