Patrick and Sarah

Int-resting Roy Patrick

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Wow Socks, You put in a way I had not thought of. We become the Ideal version that we emagine to be Christ. If we keep the vision in our mind we become what we desire to be. We live with this newness of life and find it to be good or not good. If it is not good then we change the vision, till we find what truly satisfies. Trial and error. Cause and effect. The perfecting of soul................high mindedness? Maybe, but what else is there to do in life but endeavour to be the best that we can be? I like to say "be careful and have fun". It is on our bullitain board in the living room......."life is supposed to be fun". Well said. My highest view is that love is the highest attainable goal in the present world. To not love, is to live less then I desire. This is my elite self. My high mindedness. Jesus Christ said that "the greatest among you will be the servant of all" Jesus Christ washed his desiples feet. Jesus Christ gave his life for all. This is our example, that we too should give our lives, not in death but as living sacrifices. Elite. Chosen to serve as cman said. I think we keep going deeper and deeper into the idealism that we aspire to. When we have transended to one place, there is a new place to progress to further. It is important to enjoy the present state though. The fullness of all that God is, has been given to us in the form of that Spirit that is in us, and that we daily commune with. Seek ye first the kindom of God, and all things will come natural after that. As we daily seek the Spiritual, we get to enjoy all the fruit of life that goes along with it. The love, the Joy, the Peace, the patience, the kindness, the goodness, the faith , the gentleness, and the self-controle. That Jesus sure was an elite human. I can do all things through Christ who stregthens me. Ever known anyone who believed that?

Very nice cman, Thank you.

Hi cman, Renewed mind is volition with or without a faith in God. It is simply deciding what you are going to live by. You set the rules. You make up your mind as to what the truth is, that is going to enable you overcome the "works of the flesh that lead to death". Of course we are talking about renewing the mind to "The Spirit", which is God. God is Spirit. The Spirit part of you is the God part of you. The God Part of you, is the Spirit within. There is a battlefield in the mind, and you set the rules and decide the outcome. Does that sound like elitism? I believe that every human being, has the same God given potential, to find the true life that comes through tapping into the Spirit of Christ. cman, I agree with you here.

Race consciousness is the consciousness that any group holds. Paul came from a specific religious way of thinking.....his conciousness of what sin was, was built on the Law of moses, his sectarian upbringing, and his conversion to Christianity. All these things where contributors to his Ideal of what the 'flesh' was, as opposed to the Spirit. Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Through the Law is the knowlege of sin........missing the mark of the law that nobody could live up to. Romans 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Paul was teaching renewed mind. Paul was teaching to walk accoring to the good that was "his desire". Paul was teaching that to walk anything less then what the Spirit dictated was to walk in death. I was a Christian for the benefits. The life. The peace. I retain Paul's teaching on renewed mind for the benefits. To be carnally minded is death, but to be Spiritual minded is life and peace. HHHMmmmm, Was "the renewed mind is the key to power" part of TWI teachings?

Hi Oakspear, I've learned a lot since starting this thread. If you want to be a in the Christian elite or any sectarian group, you have to submit to their rules of conduct to be approved. This is the consciousness of the group. There is also a subtle pecking order, but that is in all orginizations. Although one might not be "barred" from an elitist group because of any certain thing, they often feel the effects of not being quite like the rest. Kind of reminds me of a Rush song......... Subdivisions --- In the high school halls In the shopping malls Conform or be cast out Subdivisions --- In the basement bars In the backs of cars Be cool or be cast out There really is nothing wrong with being part of an elitist group, but it has it's effect on how we live our lives. We miss our chances to love all because we have our criteria. God is love, and God loves all, and so should we. What is it that holds us back? Our criteria. Our own complexes. Fear. Disharmony, and separation. If God is love and We have fellowship with God, then we should walk with the same love that God has for all. I believe that we can feel this harmony and that we can sense when we are out of this harmony. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The carnal mind that Paul talked of is "race consciousness". The carnal mind is the mind that has not renewed itself to the spiritual reality, that will bring about real abundant life, and peace. The world is separated because people have made it that way. To God the world is NOT separated. The world is one united whole, and when we see it as such, we see it as God sees it. These "visions of grandeur" have a powerful effect on how we 'feel' in every aspect of life. If we feel connected to every other human being, we tend to 'feel the love', that is so often missing. The effect of elitism is always separation.

Hi nandon, I have experience with one of the largest cults in the US back in the 80's and then one of the smallest cults in the us, back in the 90s. From the 80's TWI came some Corp. grads who felt that they had to be delivered from the devil in order to continue their ministries of miricles. They can talk extensivly about their deliverences, and where God has brought them as ministers for the Lord Jesus Christ. I had som false expectations back in the 90's where I actually expected to find a good fellowship in one of these groups. I went through years of being dissatisfied as I "worked out my own salvation", so I am thankful for the time spent. Basically they are harmless. I found that the leader was not what I had thought he was. I was looking for friendship and fellowship and found 'doctrine to be over love' rather then the other way around. My soul was hurt from the whole experience. I'm still healing. I see better now and realize what my false expectations where. Here is the problem I had with the whole thing. I knew I had some issues, but had a hard time thinking I had these demons, that hey could so easily catagorize and cast out. My skepticism showed, and I was never really fully excepted, or so I fealt. I did not fit in with the program, so we where distanced for years, while living in the same, rather small town. The distance actaually did me some good, because I worked out the issues of my false expectations. If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at. They think themselves to have this deliverance ministry and by golly they will deliver you, and expect your support so they can continue to deliver more people. You will be included on the mailing list and thank you for your support. It is hard to love and get to know people if they think that you have some demons. It is not real in that respect. They actually do attempt to do some good by delving into your past.........there is some profit to this, but the scars will take a lot more then what they are offering. First and formost you must know that you are loved by God. "God loves you" is the first premise of Christianity. "For God so loved the world....." The dualism involved in God against the devil is what keeps these enchantments strong. A belief is a powerful thing. If you believe that you have a devil, it will manifest in the way you expect. God is love...this is the one power.....the rest is man made imaginations. What man imagines in the spiritual, has powerful influence on his outlook on life. Dualism is what fuels all of the hoopla of casting out devils. Renewed mind is the streangth to overcome. Renewed mind to love. As God loves, so do I. That is called an affirmation. An affirmation is part of the renewed mind and has to do with your self talk. If your self talk is ,"I have a devil" you are seeing seperation rather then oneness with God. This sepperation is a lie that you believe. You have to erradicate it by changing your mind and putting a more profitable beleif in it's place. God is love, and God is me. As God loves, so do I. Patrick

I only have a few seconds and this really needs some in depth explination. I know of two ministries that are prodegies if TWI.....though they say they are healed from that. One has been mentioned and the other is I was involved with for a few years.......and it was really a drag. You don't need a minister to cast demons out of you.........Bottom line. Glad you asked and I'll add more when I have more time.

I believe that much of the Bible is elitist. Those who wrote it where writing from there religious perspective. "This forum is for the discussion of religious/spiritual doctrinal beliefs. Since this site is not a religious site, keep all doctrinal discussions in here." This is pretty much the only place I post on this site. My intrest here is spiritual. The topic of this thread is religion in general, but most of us have strong ties to Christianity, so it is understandable that the religion of Christianity, whould dominate the thread. You can only see what you can see...............A lot of what you are saying here is because of certain doctrinal influences. It is easy to disagree with a statement like "the Bible demands the acknowlegement of Christ form cover to cover". Your view of Bible is not the same as everyones. Your view of the Bible is sectarian even within Christianity. The original topic here is not to acknowlege or dismiss the Bible. That is the point; We, with our religious posotions, are all elitists. Patrick

but now I see, Could well be that I read something into your posts that you where not saying. My appologies. Propound, repound, try um out, see how they fly......sure. I'm here because I enjoy talking theology with people that have a similar back ground. I tend to grow more with some dialogue.......thanks for yours. I'm dialoguing..................can't help the passive agressive thing; I had not noticed it. As for arguing scripture, I have spent a lot of time arguing scripture over the internet...........I'm not. I was giving some alternatives to what I thought you where saying. Alternatives are nice even if I missunderstood you. "The seperation of himanity through riligion" tends to bring out hostility. We have all been burned by religion in one way or another and I find a good way to heal is to dialogue. James 5:16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Howdy but now I see. The Bible is a great book to fight over. I was in a group that could pove any dog gone thing they wanted to through the Bible. TWI. There are Theological alternitves, that make more sense, then man choosing heaven or hell through a bowing of the knee........... If Christ is over all then every knee shall bow. Christ will not loose any. None will be lost. Man cuts his losses; God does not. Here is a web site that is commited to Proving that Univiersalism is what the Bible teaches. http://tentmaker.org/ I don't argue Bible anymore, so the website that I posted will have to suffice. Personally I have evolved right out of needing any Biblical platform to support "true spirituality". The Bible is just part of mans attempt to explain God's works in mankind. Personally I am still very Pauline in my Spiritual approach to life. The point here is that elitism uses it's doctrines make others of little, smaller, or of no worth. God is not an elitist....."God is love". Have fun. Patrick

Hello Eyesopen, Yes God is not confined. Exception; each person confines God what they are able to fathom. Christians keep God in a certain box, as do agnostics, atheists, spiritualists, ect, ect. Since we are quoting Einstein. The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science) A lot of us have progressed to the point where we know for sure, that we just know enough, to "stand in awe". I have progressed right out of Christianity, and retain much of the Spiritual goodness that I received, while bound to that religion. 1 Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Good advice from Paul. Just started a new thread from the content of another.................it is a discussion. I have no problem disagreeing with folks, and I spect folks have no problem disagreeing with me. I'm not a messy discusser............. Wow though, the turn this thread took. As our elitism topples we progress, and not until. Sometimes we get left behind, because the world just is not going to wait forever for us to progress. One thing is sure........progress. Jump on or get run over. Patrick

I've heard it said before when asked, "what religion are you?" "I'm in the one that God is in". Interesting, God is in all religion, and God has no need of religion. In all reliegion there are the "extreemists". It seems that most folks just settle for passiveness. When I find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness She is standing right in front of me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. And when the broken hearted people Living in the world agree, There will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is Still a chance that they will see There will be an answer, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Yeah There will be an answer, let it be. And when the night is cloudy, There is still a light that shines on me, Shine on until tomorrow, let it be. I wake up to the sound of music Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. There will be an answer, let it be. Let it be, let it be, Whisper words of wisdom, let it be --The Beatles (Lennon/McCartney)

That is interesting................I had not thought of it as 3x back at you in some carmatic way. If you take your hand and put it in a fist and point your index finger at anthing you have three fingers left and they are all pointing back at you. Patrick

Hi Roy, Thanks for your heart. I was really impressed with ponds aswer, which is the reason I did not answer. It seems that anytime we put our particular religious piety in the lime light, we are showing this elitist tendency, that it is so easy to fall into. The milk is sour anyway................There is a deeper truth of "Christ is in us all" that all our banter can never touch......the true Holiest of all is Emanuel, God with us, God in us........every one. Patrick

After answering Sunesis in another thread I decided to make this a new thread. This is not a personal attack on Sunesis. I am just using the Ideas from another thread. Sunesis Yes, if you are of the mindset to "label apostate", I fit the bill. The culture in which Paul wrote of the "apostate" was different.....was it Paul? We as a race have progressed. Spirituality has progressed. You have progressed and will continue to progress. You are right that what VPW taught about believing sounds a lot like the popular book "The Secret". It is true that what you think, you attract to you. "The battle field is in the mind". We are Spiritual beings and what we feed this mind, we become. I am "apostate" in a lot of ways concerning the "Christian religion", but I am still very Pauline when it comes to renewed mind, and spiritual practice. I learned a lot of good things in my "Bible bound" days. I was Bound to the Bible as my only book for faith and practice for many years. I have progressed. I retain the good things that I learned, and I retain the knowlege of what it is that seperates by such a mentality. In my 35 years of progressing through Christian spiritual practice, I have come to the place where I believe in mankind. I see it as destructive to put down mankind as evil or of little worth. The mentality that puts worth on mankind according their beliefs causes elitism. The elitist feels that he has the right, and the rest are wrong. The elitist seperates himself from the "apostate" so as not to be associated with the lesser soul(of course they feel that they do this in love to bring the apostate back so as "through the fire"). Elitiest judgment separates.

Hi pond, TWI taught that the Holy Ghost, was not a third person of the trinity, but an it. Spir"it". Spirit of God in us. I find that the Spirit is how I commune with God and that "it" is always their and that "it" is as much a part of God as God is a part of "it". The highest God and the innermost God are One and the Same God. This Part of God that some call "it" and some call Spirit, is an inseperable part of every being made in th image of God. Yes the Bible has borders and conditions set for "salvation". Evolution has brought many out of a "Bible bound" mentality. I am not bound by a book that was written by men, secluded to a limmited theology. I gain much from their Spiritual understanding and practice, and still the words of the Bible minister to me daily. There Bible tought me about God's love, and was a tool for my healing and wholeness, and I continue to find it relevent for Spiritual practice, but I am not bound to it, as the perfect word of God. Back to theology and will every soul live forever? In Christianity there are 3 prevaily theology regarding this. 1)Heaven and hell.......all souls spend eternity in one or the other. 2)Heaven and annihilation...........Some are saved.....and the rest are annilhilated(the mercy of God) 3)Christ is the Savior of all and will be robbed of none.....in other words one way or another all end up in heaven. TWI taught #2 I progressed to #3 in my Christian walk and now prefer to believe something that differs only slightly. First it is hard to emagine that all human beings will live forever.......I mean our finite minds can hardly fathom that each soul that has ever lived continues on and on and on............It is a great number....uncountable. What is impossible for man is possible for God. If I am to live forever then the rest shall too. God is not limmited to man's small emagination. God is able, so I am able to believe. I can not prove life after death, but it is a premise of New Thought that Spirit never dies. The Body dies but the Spirit and Soul live on. In New Thought, death is "transition" to the next realm, whatever that may be. Since there is one good power, then the next realm will be good, and progressive. We retain our idenity as we move on. If we had a weak constitution in this world, and reaped the benefits of that constitution, we take that same soul into the next realm, where we continue to learn and grow. We don't change from "sinner to saint", but I'm sure the experience will be enlightening for both. Nuff said about what I don't know. This is why I don't live for a future heaven, but live the heaven that is available in the now. Today is the day of salvation. Today is the day to live the wholeness of "God in our midst". Patrick

Hi Bramble, I have noticed this too. We have such pride in our own volition, and in our being self sustaining, taking care of our business ect, ect . When we have worked for it, we feel entitled, and the right to protect. Sarah and I are a team to ourselves, against the world.............Yet Christ said that the greatest amoung you will be the servant of all. We come into this world in need of care from others and as we grow old it seems that a great number of us will need to rely on others again. It seems to be a paradox that I am still working through. Don't blink (line from a country song, about the secret to life, and how fast it goes). Much of our life is lived in our "glory days". The fun days. The goodness of God in the Now. I live not for a future reward, but for a present benefit, of the Spiritual life, in the now. In the now, the fruit of the Spirit, is manifest in all of my responsibilities. Patrick

Thanks for the utube links................ cman is "see"man when it comes to "it" being in all of us. Good word. Patrick

Hi Bramble, I like your nick. hmmmmmmmmmmmm responsibility. I think that every relationship that has been put in my path is a God given responsibility. God has entrusted me with these responsibilities. In the end though each one is responsible for themselves first. When I mentioned that I had a constitution that I live by and that I think it is a good thing for a person to endeavor to live up to their constitution, to the teacher of the class I am in, he said "sure as long as you don't put your expectations on others". In other words, "You are resposible for you, and let others be responsible for themselves". Thanks for the input. Patrick

Pound thanks for sticking in there. I appreciate your dialogue. A belief is a powerful thing. I believe that in one way or another I can talk to anyone about God. I think that most people are ok with a God concept as long as I am not force feeding them my rendition. Many a good agnostics out there. "The truth is out there" God made man in His own image. Spirit. Now what is the soul? Can you see it? The soul is who you and I are, with all of our life record. The soul starting from birth has learned what it means to be mankind........it has picked up everything it could along the way. The soul is where your beliefs reside. Your beliefs are a learned from birth by all the influences you have been subjected to; Where you where born, to whom you where born, how you where raised, every little thing that has krept into that head has been obsorbed by the soul and has made you................You the individual soul with all your beliefs. There is an incorruptable part of every man, that is the Spirit, that is God. God is part of every man, and every man is part of God. As cman said so well..........We all have "it" inside. What I love about Romans is the renewed mind. Renewed mind uses the Spirit to bring the soul to a purified state. As we through the Spirit speak truth to our own soul we begin to become like that Spirit which is God, which is Love. The ego of mankind is basically the soul that is not subject to spiritual truth. When the ego is hurt, God is not. The God part of us can then fix things up. One thing that I liked about TWI teachings was Sonship and renewed mind. If you always "know" that you are a Spiritual being, and that you CAN live up to the Spirits desire, Then you will find true life and true peace. I have proved this...............to me. My soul believes it, trough a constant training, that the Spirit is willing to provide, according to our free will. Our free will is very important to the purifying of the soul. My Standard is NOT the Holy Bible. My Standard is the Holy Spirit. I've thrown the book away for long periods of time, and I still have the Spirit as my guide. I believe that the writers of the Bible had there influences, religion, culture, belief systems, ect that all must be taken into account when reading the Bible. Your post on mtaphysics looked pretty good. What was the source? Oh Star Treck....................Yeah I missed that part. I remember parts of the series, that is about it. I see your point. Metaphysics can be a bit ambiguouse......esoteric. When you find love, you have found God.

Cats are not Spiritual beings like humans are. Cats may well have cat spirit, I don't know. Cat soul. Humans are one race. Metaphysically we all have a Spirit and a Soul that is the same. I have a Human soul.....so do you. They are remarkably the same. I can too The body of Christ is Paul's analogy. I can take Paul's analogy and make it my own with a completely different standard. Paul said "we are all members". When Paul saw his "bretheren" he saw the Body of Christ. When I see any human being I can call them my "bretheren" and see the one bread, one body, Christ. I am using Pauls ananlogy as a spiritual comparison on a bigger level. Still not sure what borg is. I believe in free will as well. I believe that with our free will we are drawn to God through trial and error. We learn a little here and a little there. If you need Jesus Christ as king of kings and Lord of lords in order to love, then more power to you......as long as the love follows. God is love. One can have Jesus as Lord and not have love, and one Can have Love as Lord and not have Jesus(though they are one). Much of Christian doctrine on Lordship falls short for me. I don't think that Jesus cares one way or the other if you call Him Lord, as long as you have love. I'm not bashing Jesus. I'm bashing a doctrine that excludes a majority of the race because of their particularities. Yes, in my constitution I go with Love. The one who has Jesus but has not love, has not God(in their heart).

Hey pond, What is the borg? We are all there to a certain degree. The whole context of the Body of Christ is that God has made some to the ministry of teachers, prophets, ect ect ect............These ones that God has made able to minister......have they made it there yet? The trick is to teach people to follow God and not man. Not to "heap to themselfs teachers"............I am of Paul, I am of Apolos...........ect....we are all of God. There is no division in Christ. Perfect world. And yet I show you a more perfect way......... Love is patience, love is kind, It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking it is not easily angered. It does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, alsays trusts, always hopes, always percerveres. Love never fails. The standard is love. It is not up to me to decide who is worthy or not......all are worthy. We love all. I can't make others follow my constitution. I can only endeavour to make me follow it. Cult brain? Spiritual living? I choose Spirit over mens lables. Heres a cult, theres a cult, everwhere a cult, cult........... I choose to commune with those who endeavour to love. I think we all need community and we starve ourselves out of fear or pride. Pride keeps us from fellowshipping with them that differ from us. Fear keeps is in our safe house. Love gets us out. That is Metaphysical. Oh well, I ranted. Thanks pond.

The course is "adult education". No credit in the real world, just the orginization. It is a reqired course in order to take other courses that lead to being a Spiritual Practitioner in Religious Science. There is no grade. It is pass or fail. The onley way to fail is not neet the criteria of handing in a project and not attending 11 out of the 13 sessions. Each session has homework that must be turned in as well.........................I'm passing. Every human a part of me is similar to the Body of Christ analogy, don't you think? Jesus prayed that we would be one even as He and the Father are one. At least the Christian has to admit that every Christian is a part of me. Then we broke that down to sonship and fellowship.........remember. We are always sons, therefor part of the Body, but we are not always in fellowship. In the bigger sense, if all men have the same Father of all Spiritual beings, then just because all men do not walk in their Spiritual nature, that does not mean that they never will or are not to a certain degree.