Schwaigers

Stay tuned. I'll try to dig up a picture of Dave and me in our room at the Indaina Campus, and I'll post it here when I find it. In that particular room, you had to sit on the bed to use the sink (we had to go down the hall to use a bathroom, but there was a sink in our room). However, the sink left zero room for our bed! The whole room was maybe eight feet across. And the most unbelievable part was that there were many many empty rooms at that time. Still we were assigned that tiny space. And we obeyed. Duh. Pat

We received a letter of apology from the FC Coordinator, after he himself became "Mark and Avoid". In it he said ... "If there's anything I can do ..." So we wrote back and asked him to contact our daughter, who had totally severed ties with us due to HIS communication with her when WE were made "Mark and Avoid". Of course, he never followed through with his offer of "If there's anything I can do ..." when we actually asked him to do something. He never contacted her.

Interesting topic. Two thoughts: 1. Those of us who loved TWI so much that we went into the Corps ... were pretty much trapped. The little home fellowships were so wonderful, so we figured it would be even more wonderful rubbing shoulders with the guys who led this outfit. We wanted to be like them, so we could extend this wonderful-ness to everyone. Instead, once we settled in at a root locale, we saw how deceitful these leaders were, and we saw how the peons in those sweet fellowships back home were being used. But by then it was too late. We had sold everything (to be out-of-debt, as required); convinced our kids it was the right thing to do - to relocate - leaving friends, pets, schools, etc behind; and we had burned our own bridges back to non-Way friends and family. Do you see the trap? Oh, you could pry yourself out of it, but it would be very painful. For us, we didn't have the guts to do that. We kept rationalizing that God would honor our intentions, and one day we could teach and live the Word like we had dreamed ... if we would just play the game and get through Corps training. So, because we wouldn't deliver ourselves, God arranged it for us, and had us Marked and Avoided. We will always be grateful for that. But at the time ... it was a nightmare - homeless, jobless, destitude. No kidding. But we survived, and we're just fine now. 2. What was it they taught us? Something like ... the closeness to the real thing is how the fake thing succeeds ... what was it? Not enough coffee yet - I can't remember. Anyhow, TWI was real close to being genuinely good. But it wasn't really good at all. In fact, it was horribly bad. I have heard it has changed. I pray this is true. -Pat

Ex 10 ... Thanks, and Happy Easter to you. I didn't mean to put down My3Cents. If I remember correctly, he is one of the guys we were in Family Corps with - by another name, of course - and you are so right - he is very "balanced", one of the most sensible (cents-able?) men we encountered in that nightmare. I take his views quite seriously. And about my conscience - yes, it was developed long before TWI, but altered I think due to TWI. Wasn't yours? Professional help - yep, I've done that, am still doing that. The best advice I got from a counselor ... was just what you said: Gotta find that person I used to be. She suggested resuming my artwork, something I loved as a child, and a teen, and then got to busy to do. I started painting again a couple of years ago, and did in fact start finding that old self in the process. Thanks for reminding me. -Pat

3 Cents, You say that you make decisions by asking yourself "is this idea useful?", but in determining whether it will be useful, you consider the "inner consequences". This is what I'm talking about. My inner consequences have to a large degree been manufactured by TWI, rather than by my own conscience. And you mention asking whether it is "on the Word" (which is Way-thinking for sure, because anyone else would ask whether it is "IN the Word), there is also confusion, because we were given so much mis-information about the Word. For me, there is definitely a loss of confidence in myself as well, and so I find myself second-guessing many things that I do, or not doing things because it might be wrong - or it might not, but let's not risk it. And as time goes by, I wonder if this craziness is not getting worse, instead of better. -Pat

I read a Dr. Phil book recently (yes, I know he is not the know-all, end-all, but interesting anyhow). And in this book, he said we should do "What works" instead of "What's right". I'm sure he didn't mean we should go out there and do wrong. But I think the point is that our concept of right-and-wrong is likely to be skewed, and if something isn't working, then we should re-examine the personal values behind it. Maybe it's our skewed thinking. Well, I know for a fact that TWI skewed or screwed my thinking about what's right and wrong. Nowadays, it's hard to make some decisions because of this. It may seem like something is reasonable to do - or not to do - but then TWI doctrine or some twisted interpretation of Biblical principals will pop up in my head, and ........ I'm lost. Prior to my TWI days, I was good at decision-making. Anybody else have this problem? -Pat

BTW Although I basically agree (out of my common sense) with what you wrote, tell me where you got this quote: "In fact, what God said even though He hates divorce, He said If you find your spouse to be morrally unclean in any way, write up the divorce papers, put them right in their hand, and put them out of the house." -Pat

Hi folks Here's a question for you. The Bible allows for divorce in situations of adultery and fornication, right? So ... what is fornication? I remember some of what TWI taught about this. But has anyone learned anything more accurate since then? And another thing ... do TWI couples who divorce tend to claim that each other is "possessed"? I am aware of this happening in more than one break-up. -Pat

Papa John You asked why everyone wants to see bad things happen. I've wondered that myself sometimes. Like that Jerry Springer show ... why are people entertained by that crap? But I think this is different. While divorce is essentially a "bad thing", there are times when it is necessary and therefore a good thing. Certainly in this case, it is totally appropriate. Assuming it was Donna who initiated the divorce (which I don't know, but it seems likely) ... it would indicate that she recognizes her own worth as a woman,as well as the example she needs to set for other women who look up to her. For her to stay married to this abusive man would imply that she accepts this kind of behavior within a marriage relationship, which could lead to others being hurt who try to imitate her. And the most likely females to imitate her would be her own daughters. So, Papa John, perhaps we at Greasespot are actually celebrating this turn of events, rather than being amused by something "bad". -Pat

No, you guys. They are divorced. Got it from a reliable source. -Pat

Hi guys I worked as a receptionist at the Indiana Campus as late as 1997, and we would get calls occasionally from people requesting transcripts. Now maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but as I recall, the only thing we could send out was documentation that the person did attend the college. We couldn't send an official transcript, because the college was NOT accredited, and also because the "classes" were not measured by credit hours or by a standard grading system. Maybe this situation was just something that evolved in later years. I do know that Corps grads, whether still "standing" with TWI or not, can still aquire authority (from their state) to marry couples, based on their Corps training, but that's a different thing entirely from attempting to transfer college credits. -Pat

John, "Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing" ????? Who cares?

Ckeer, you're really smart. -Pat

Are you referring to the "Christian Family and Sex" class? If so, this is the class that taught that wives are indeed supposed to serve their husbands, wooden spoons are to be used on children, and it's OK for singles to have sex because after a certain age (30, I think) we all have certain "needs". It was a disgusting class. And look what happened to the Martindales who taught it.

It's nice to discuss this stuff with people who still know how to think. The other part of my original question was in regards to why TWI focused so much on devil spirits. I mean ... just think about the detailed junk we were taught about the "dark side". Is there any other group that knows so much - or claims to know so much - about evil spirits? Now here's a wild idea: I have a friend, an ex-TWI friend, who insists that LCM is the Antichrist. He believes that the whole TWI system was designed intentionally to pull people away from Christianity and toward Satan. Thus the focus on the Adversary. Thus the absence of Christ in the majority of teachings. Where was Jesus in the "Athletes of the Spirit" production? When did we have any classes on the Gospels? (They were said to be Old Testament books, remember?) And lightning will strike you down if you pray to Jesus. And "Jesus Christ is Not God". And on and on and on and on. Compare this with the in-depth emphasis on the devil. What do you think? -Pat

2fortheroad: Is this a Reiki Master "spiritual guide"? Sir G: Are you talking about Guardian Angels? TWI said we only had a Guardian Angel until we were born again. Where did they get that? I think there is angelic protection on some folks before, after, and regardless of whether they are born again. Also, what does it mean to have a name you can not utter, but you see it instead? You guys, so much of what we're discussing here goes beyond the stuff in the Word. Remember the mantra "The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word"? Actually I don't think this idea was anywhere to be found in the Word. The Word is great, indescribable even, but truth is not limited to just the Word. -Pat

Ckeer and Sirguess, To some degree I can accept the possibility that good spirits are simply good characteristics or virtues, and not "concrete" beings. This is what I was taught as a kid, and it seems to represent the contemporary thinking of mainstream Christianity. It's 2004 and we don't believe in magic anymore. Plus ... I totally reject LCM's visual interpetation of little goblins and creeps in leotards (bad spirits), as shown in his stupid "Athletes" production. Good grief. But ... I am certain that somewhere between these two extremes of spirit identities, there really are spirits which exist in tangible form - at least sometimes. And I'm also sure that Names are much more important than mere labels. Remember - we are told to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Names have power. In Judges 13, an angel shows up to tell a lady she's gonna have a baby (which turns out to be Samson). Dad then asks for the angel's name, and the angel responds that his name is secret. Hmmmmmm. And in Revelation 2:17 we are told that we will be given new names by God. Cool, huh? In Wicca (oh, boy, now I'm treading on thin ice !), magic spells or hexes cannot be cast without knowing the recipient's name. In Native American tradition, a new name is given following puberty rites. It not only symbolizes some event which may have occurred during the ceremony, but also gives the young adult an identity to live up to. In Hawaii, they even name their canoes, and refer to them respectfully by name, not because they think the canoe is alive, but because they acknowledge that this vessel is what will protect them from the sea, and it must be cared for honorably - which includes a name. The Bible tells us that bad spirits know our names. Check this out: http://members.aol.com/jesusandsue2/A16-PowerFailure.html The point is ... if you can get the name of something, you can interact with it more precisely, whether for the good or the bad. I'm interested in the good, and I'm still curious about the names of the 7 spirits. -Pat

Gee I love you guys! Ckeer: That's a neat website. It lines up with a bunch of other stuff I've read, saying the 7 spirits were related to the 7 churches, but I question that. Revelations does say the angels or "messengers" are related to the churches, but I think those 7 spirits are something different. Dmiller: Isn't it comforting to remember that there are twice the number of good spirits as there are bad spirits? Especially when you think of the zillion bad spirits we learned so much about in TWI. Bramble: Chakras are diagnostic tools for physical healers who are humble enough to recognize spiritual and emotional effects on the human body. Learning about chakras was part of my healing earlier this year when I had four vertebrae fused. Very powerful. And Sirguess: Your posts are like reading Revelations itself! This is why you had to leave Gunnison. God delivered you from that hateful place ... by way of your wonderful mind. My questions for you are- 1. What are the "7 mediums" you refer to? 2. Are you saying there is a spirit for each day of the Creation, like "the Spirit of Plants", "the Sprit of Fish and Fowl", etc? 3. And about names - these are really important when it comes to understanding the being's purpose. Remember Jesus asking for Legion's name? He needed to know the name so he could interact with this guy. In this case, of course, it was to blast the spirit(s) out. But knowing something's name always facilitates a clearer interaction. We learned to do this with devil spirits. I want to interact with good spirits. I want the names of the 7 Revelations 1. 4. Discerning of Spirits may involve "seeing correlations everywhere", like you said, but it's bigger than that. Eventually it involves names. 5. If spirits are "characteristics or attitudes of will" (your definition, which I can sorta accept), then why would we love the devil? You guys, I think if we start disecting the whole Book of Revelations on this thread, we will drown. Mostly, I just want to know more about the good spirits. There's gotta be way more than 7, but this is a place to start. Happy Independence Day! Isn't it great to be independent? -Pat

Since the Book of Revelations was forbidden territory by TWI, lately I have decided to check it out, not under the influence of the many popular doomsday-style commentaries, but actually using the Biblical research techniques taught by TWI. It has been interesting indeed! Now, I have a question for you guys. In the Advanced Class and in "Defeating the Adversary", we were taught volumes of incredibly detailed stuff about devil spirits. How many good spirits do you remember learning about? Initially, I could only remember Holy Spirit, holy spirit, Michael and Gabriel. This was a fraction of the amount of info we got about devil spirits. Why was / is TWI so out-of-balance in this category? If learning about angels is viewed as "angel worship", wouldn't it be reasonable that such a huge focus on devil spirits could be viewed as "devil worship"? As I thought a little longer, I remembered learning about nameless angel beings, who showed up now and then, but the emphasis of those teachings was that they did not have wings, halos, harps, etc. These lessons were taught to make fun of the non-Way Christians ("Christen-Dumb") who believed in the traditional flying angels. These were negative teachings, whose only purpose was to further divide us from the outside world. So now I'm reading in Revelations, and immediately it refers to "the seven spirits". These are clearly good guys. Names, please? We know all about the Spirit of Idolatry and the Spirit of Envy and the Spirit of Infirmity ... an so on. We learned how to discern these critters, we learned their names, and we learned how to cast them out. I want to learn just as much - or more - about the good spirits. So somebody teach me. -Pat

Check this out. It's a SUPER article about Christians and codependency. -Pat http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/donsmith.shtml

I think this is the most consistant and enduring damage that TWI has done to us. It has left us with an inability to trust others, and at the same time, a false sense of needing others. ie ... we aren't good enough to just rely on ourselves, but if we rely on somebody else, they will destroy us. OK. So that's the problem. Now what are we going to do about it? -Pat

I think what Goey said is significant. We may be attracted to losers because it makes us feel like winners. Didn't we see this in TWI? They wanted numbers of people in each PFAL class, and --- now come on, admit it --- it was easier (less intimidating) to witness to poor, down-and-out folks than to sophisticated smart people. Do you remember when the trend turned to seeking after only "employed" people for the class? How Christian was that? But I think it happened because of this tendency to befriend those we consider less than ourselves. On the one hand, it seems the noble thing to do. But on the other hand, it may be a statement about how we view ourselves. Similarly, I think the fact that we got involved with TWI in the first place ... is a statement about how we view (or viewed) ourselves. Let's hope we have a clearer picture nowadays. If it's a real friend you want, look for somebody who you would like to be. Diversity is great, but if you want an intimate, giving friend, seek out your own kind, similar values and interests. Then give the relationship ample time and space to grow. Main thing is Don't lose yourSELF. -Pat

Vickles Two thoughts about this: 1. I do just the opposite. Since TWI, I don't trust ANYone. It has even trickled into my relationships with family members. This extreme is as bad as the other. 2. I think in my younger years I tended to do what you are discribing - rescuing the unlovable by treating them respectfully. But, like you said, there's a reason why these weirdo's don't have friendship from others. In fact, I think that's how I got connected with TWI in the first place. Some weirdo's were into this PFAL trip, and I respectfully took the time to listen to their hype. Bad idea. They wouldn't let up. Next thing I knew I was in the class, and then fellowship, and then ... Vickles, please be careful not to be too nice. Like we say in Wyoming, "Don't feed the bears"! -Pat

Is it supposed to have sound with it? I can't get any audio to come up. It would be funnier if I could hear it. Pat

Thanks Temple Lady and everybody. It's interesting that many of us have referred to TWI as "twisting" scriptures. In the big description of Leviathan in Job 41, it mentions how he/it twists and writhes. When I have time, I'll list out the multitude of theories about what Leviathan represents. Lots of theories, but none of them has anything to do with alcohol or addiction. -Pat