joeoday

Dear Groucho, John Lynn didn't post it on GS, Jeff USAF did, so why would we even expect John L. to reply through this forum? And why would you say he was pontificating if he isn't even the one to post? I'm glad to see him write something and state a position. I agree with Galen, nice to see his heart. Joe

TBFG, Good comments and I have taken all of them to heart. Thanks. RichNCrispy, Rich, You too have made some good points. Conflict is good if we can learn from it. I hope to. We all need grace, and to dispense it too. To all, merry Christmas. Remember Jesus is the reason for the season. Joe, (or who ever I think I am--heck who knows anymore)

I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge. Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle. I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortuantely she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out. Rich and Chrispy, I know that you too have spoken up but have you really hung in there and tried to effect change? I've experienced you as sitting on the sidelines and doing a lot of carping and stone thowing. Rich you publicly gave that baby-poop in my diapers word of prophecy at a STF event in California three to four years ago. Come on brother, do you really think that was supposed to effect change? It was disgusting then and still is today. You criticize others for thier so called prophetic words and then you do the same thing with that "word." Brother your anger is clear, and maybe even righteously caused but you have become bitter and it is only harming you. Chris, you say that Dan made deliverance available at a STF event , even indicating he used a questionnare etc. that probed into personal sexual issues. He does use a questionnare for those that privately meet for deliverance. It has never been used at a STF event. He has made personal ministry available for prayer and healing for physical, mental, and emotional needs. You do the Body great harm when you misspeak. He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people. If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? You say he has broken confidences with it. Have you ever brought these charges against him according to matt 18? Do you have any first hand experience of this or are you basing your statements on what E says? Check your source sister. If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. Spread the word through the faith community. I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not. Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset. I respect Jeff, Billy D., Matt, etc because they do seem to be fighting for this ministry. I don't respect naysayers and those who crab but do nothing constructive about it. There, got it off my chest and have vented. Bring on your comments. Finally, If God is in it then it can not fail, if he's not, then it can not succeed. Joe Ckmkeon, How do you expect them to change a website when they have fired everyone? Joe

Socks, You make some great points. I believe the Board majority wants to get Mark out of office and then intends on calling in members of the community to speak to all the issues that have surfaced. The answer to many of thier problems will be found in listening to the faith community. Joe

Glad to see there are so many intelligent reponses on this site. J

RAF, Those were great questions. They say that half the solution to a problem is asking the right question. I suggest you send them to a STF Board member. Dan is dan@stfonline.org John S. is John @STfonline.org I know that those two are really trying to straigthen this mess out. I doubt that you could reach others and Mark G and Tom would ignore you. Joe

Hi Socks. When I mentioned in my post "Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES." My comments have nothing to do with personal prophecy. My comments are directed toward the possibility the Board will split CES over their disagreements. If they have hired attorneys, that means they are looking for a legal solution and not a biblical solution. The legal solution does not usually work out the best for the people who support the organization and means someone is rejecting the biblical answer. I know that the Board has not hired any attorneys and they have no intentionof splitting STF. They did consult with the corporate attorney over some language in the bylaws, (i.e. the phrase "that the president must act under the general control of the board" because Graeser is ignoring the board), can Graeser fire Dan G., the CEO, etc. Joe I also know that Mark G. has retained a labor attorney but I think it is because he is concerned that he will be fired, which he should be. I think he will be handed his walking papers a tthe Boards annual meeting in January. Joe

My research indicates that the PAC stood for Prophetic Advisory Committee. It was created in response to September 11 twin towers attack. Some members of the CES faith community came forward afterwards and said that they had received warnings from the Lord but didn't know what to do with them. The PAC started with the intention of giving the prophetic members of the community at large a forum ( I hope some of you still believe there are prophets in the Body of Christ and not thrown out Eph:4 too) Unfortuantely, some got a hold of it and then ran with it. They used it as a way to manipulate and control. Pretty typical, good intentions but much wrong in the execution. The Board is certainly responsible and I've heard first hand that the Board majority (Dan, John S. Gary and Karen T.) are very repentent for what happenend and have all intentions of making it right. I believe they'll make it public once they straightened out the rest of the problems. Right now I think they are just trying to get the ministry out of the hands of the Graesers. Mark is a rogue president and not accepting any oversight from them. Matthew: Thanks for your post. Good heart. I know you love these people and are grieved. Jeff: Sounds like Dan laid it out for Mark. No wonder he got handed his hat. Cap'n Crunch: Thanks for the catch on the "sexual involment" statement in Dan's letter to Mark. Mark indicated that he wasn't rebuffed, as you say E alledges, but he does admit that they only kissed. That's not what is important. Has anyone else picked up on the fact that Mark concealed this from the rest of the community when EL reminded him of it. This is the guy who was counseling John and E. and he had never even disclosed this to his supposed "best friend" (John Lynn). Doesn't sound like a friend to me. Certainly doesn't sound presidential---but then none of this does I guess. Joe

Mark, Good point, However, I remember in The W.y that they exercised a lot of control and authority over people. My perspective is there is a big difference between the two organizations.

Rich, What's the good? :unsure: You have me curious.

Capn Crunch, I have to say that the dream stuff you posted that was presented to elizabeth does seem nuts (and most certainly EVIL). I'm guessing that your point was exactly that. I don't thinik the problems is "dreams "per se. God clearly says that He can talk through dreams and visions. He did with Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekial, Job, Joseph (Mary's husband), and even Paul (the man from Macedonia). Were they all nuts? I think not. The problem is not dreams, but that they claim that those demonic images are from God. Of primary importantance in any dream is determining the source.(God, your own soul,, or Satan). I have been invovled with CES/STF since 2000 and I think the problem they are experiencing now is the fact that the Graeser's and these "prophets" are being held to account. How else do you explain the fact that four faithful employees have either resigned or been terminated in the past five weeks (there are only two full time employees now left besides Mark and John Schoenheit). I have talked to those fired and they were confronting Mark and fighting for change, that's why they are gone. John Lynn hasn't been on the Board or payroll for at least two years. John Lynn has recently wieighed in on this and taken the Graeser's on too. I know there are some good people on the Board who have been fighting Mark tooth and nail. Let's pray for good to come from this. I won't condemn an entire organizatioin because a few are bad. Don't get me wrong, that stuff with Elizabeht was wrong and the responsible parties need to repent, account and make amends. And by the way, CES has no fellowships. They allow fellowships to post their informatiion on their websites but they exert no authority or control over any fellowships, and they have never asked anyone to sign any type of agreement (Code of Conduct or otherwise). Watching from the side lines.

Galen, I know the reason the Bible Lands videos were not produced was because of a lack of funds. I thinking you are over stating your role on that tour by a long shot. You were a participant and although you may have helped at times you did not go to carry lights etc. Let's stay honest here.