caribousam

Thats quite a grand and assumption. Arrogant too.

My job brings me to churches all over the country and I am amazed every trip at the things that 'normal people' in the church do. Many, many people flourish in a church setting.

Although I have to admit that Ive yet to hear anyone in the churches that I go to whine as loud or as long as John Lynn can and does,(thats gotta be a superspecial gift of whining to go on that long) or hear anyone talk or base their lives on dreams of nose spiders(is that the Gift of Incredible UltraStupidity that they manifest?)

My experience in Massachusetts - most churches are places where folks come to feel good,

feel they have done their "Sunday obligation." There's a lot of crappy teachers, swindlers,

fakers, and boneheads. And I'm talking about the church leaders. I'm sure there are some decent

groups, but they truly are not the norm.

So I am happy with my small fellowships of family, men, and various connections with other

Christian groups. To me, a lot of Christian churches are seriously spiritually sick,

and I choose to stay away from their illness. Am I arrogant ? Maybe, but to me, I am just trying to

protect myself and my family.

John Lynn is not someone that I look to as a good spiritual leader.

What I wonder is.. now that they have gone their separate ways.. the graeser's ejected from herr organization, doing gawd knows what besides litigating.. jl off on his own "trip".. and js and a few others keeping the campfire warm..

has anybody every gotten any legitimate ANSWERS?

or just more podcasts.. teachings, and appeals for money and motorcoaches?

Well STFI ain't perfect, but they are doing a lot of good. IMHO.

The artificial smile is disconcerting. Hope God is able to help JAL connect with reality. Seems like a long shot, but...who knows...

Yes. CES has been through some pain and some changes, but they seem to be on the right track. John Lynn has separated from them and this is a good thing. JAL was given many chances and ultimately refused tolet go of stubborn sin.

I haven't been on Grease Spot for quite some time; but I do get emails on what is going on. have been "out" now for quite some time. The reason for my writing today is because of what is happening at CES/ or whatever name they call themselves now and this John Lynn and his wife thing.

What the H.... is the this prophetic garbage? Do we now have sooth-sayers? That is what it sounds like to me. I am shocked to hear that they are dabbling in this stuff. I am convinced that CES/truth whatever is completely taken over by the devil. Yes, I said it. They should all be ashamed at what is going on. What this tells me is NOONE there should be trusted or followed. If you are a member, run quickly away!

I do know that the enemy is the devil and he will use anyone he can to tear apart the Body of Christ and it looks like he has succeeded in this case. I believe that the Board in listening to these sooth-sayers have too been influenced by the devil and therefore, should dissolve this ministry. It is no longer a ministry of God but a ministry for the devil.

As far as John Lynn's latest letter to the Board, John get over it, why would you still want to be a part of something like this? Go get a life and if you want to spread God's word, who is stopping you? It sounds to me like you need the money. If it is God's will for you to spread his word, he will provide for you or have you forgotten that? You also, have been influenced by these sooth-sayers and therefore should not be spreading his word if you believe in this crap.

Have you all forgotten that we now have Christ in US? If God wants us to know something he will first tell us! There is no need any longer for these sooth-sayers.

Power and money corrupts, or have you forgotten why you left TWI? God forgive you for what you have done again!

ML

Your premise is interesting but wrong I believe. Anyone could bring up similar arguments about any biblical author. The canon of scripture and the canon of the books refute your argument. Do some prayer and study aboutthose things and God will likely shed light on the matter.

The "nostalgia for research" article/thread prompted me to contemplate the significance of "inerrancy".

The Way Ministry focused primarily on study of The Pauline Epistles. This was a precedent that was established early in the PFAL class via the introduction of Biblical administrations (Dispensationalism), the concept of observing "To Whom It Is Written" and the idea behind all people belonging to three specific categories. ("Jew, Gentile or Church of God") In addition, it was established early in the PFAL class that what "Holy Men of God" spoke or wrote was tantamount to words directly from God, himself. Thus, we were to consider the contents of The Church Epistles to be equivalent to words from God (Holy Men Of God Spoke.), directly to us (To The Church of God), At one point during the course of the Fellow Laborer program, we were to read Ephesians a minimum of once a day. Then, we were to rehash it at our night twigs every night. Given the rigidness of the schedule we observed, this didn't last long nor were people very consistent in their diligence. That, however, is probably fodder for another topic.

Here is were it gets sticky. Using the aforementioned criteria, it became an accepted "given" that whatever Paul said in Ephesians, Corinthians, etc was the same thing as God saying it directly to us. Suppose for a moment, though, that Paul was, perhaps, the VPW of his day. (So often, people would put forth the inverse idea that VPW was the Apostle Paul of our day and time.) Even now, years after his death, with the advent of the internet and the plethora of information it puts at our fingertips, some people still aren't able to see that VPW was really a con-man. People in the first century did not have access to resources that could prove or disprove Paul's legitimacy.

We have heard people say that it's God's will we all speak in tongues (one example) because God said so in "His Word". Did He? Or, was it Paul who made that statement? Question five, of "listening with a purpose", in session eleven, poses the question, "Is it God's will that we all speak in tongues?" According to the answer key, the correct answer is "Yes". But think about it. Who really said "I would that ye all speak in tongues."? Wasn't it, in fact, Paul? Did he really say that "to us" or to a specific group of people two thousand years ago? There are many, many more examples of places where you could insert "Thus Saith Paul."

What if Paul was really a forerunner of what we now call "con men"? What if Paul was the VPWFHDAT? (VPW for his day and time) It certainly shines a very different light on the importance and "inerrancy" of The Epistles.

Well, if God was big enough to talk to Moses and Paul and Jesus, why wouldn't he be big enough to talk to you? Do you really want to limit God to what people 2000+ years ago said about him?

Sorry to hear that looking for a direct experience of the divine leads nowhere for you.

Of course we have...we're grease spots :blush:

I definitely believe in the direct experience of God. I have experienced it a bunch of times.I don't believe in overly liberal theology where anything and everything is ok.

Nicely put

Instead of trying to experience the divine in exactly the same manner that Moses or Paul or even Jesus did, why not look at what they did experience, think "wow, that was cool...I wonder what's in store for me?" and then sit back and enjoy our own transcendent experience?

That all sounds so nice, so liberating. But it is kind of anarchist and rebellious, and leads nowhere. Sounds so "Cheech and Chong." Whoa dude, pass that bong and let's see what God has to say...

While most people agree on the basics of what is right and wrong - God put that in our DNA - we need more than the basics to thrive and have hope. At least I do. Those questions about life and death and eternity keep bugging me.

Though people disagree on interpretation of the Bible, it seems that there is a right way to interpret. And it seems that the Bible answers well allthe big life questions.

The Way, CES, Baptists, and Pentecostalists all bring some truth to the table. I try to trust God and sort the error from truth.

One thing I love to reject is the jaded and decadent and dumb ideas promoted by most mass media and academics in the US.

With everybody's experiences being different in TWI it seems to me that maybe some of us might be willing to go on the record with experiences that fit this category. In TWI these things did not happen to me, even though some of the bad doctrines and counsel were definitely a factor in the times that I was a jerk. I'm attempting to go beyond the scope of any jerk-ness that I can recall committing and speak directly to deliberate cruelty and violations of basic human dignities. For me, these experiences relate directly to "River Road Fellowship" led by Victor Barnard.

Before they kicked me out I was trying to talk to my wife in order to get her to see things my way. After a while it was clear that everything that I told my wife in the privacy of my own house was being reported to leadership. After a while it got to the point where I could just tell her anything and within a day or two leadership would call a meeting in an attempt to deal with it. Sometimes I would talk to her in the evening and first thing the very next morning a teacher dealt with these things. It could have been quite maddening except that I already had seen enough to be certain that these scum-buckets were willing to do absolutely anything to mess with my head.Intimidation was the norm at these meetings. It's not that I felt intimidated by these thugs, I felt my family was under assault. So for the most part I kept a straight face and dealt with it.

Under these circumstances in a small communal fellowship they are capable of putting an intense amount of pressure on an individual. For me, every stare, every inference concerning my issues with the fellowship, and every slight just seemed to add pressure that built up over time. when I was under the influence of such intense pressure they would often try to provoke me into doing something stupid. When they realized that I was just playing with them as far as just watching them react to the things that I would tell my wife in privacy they tried to get me to accuse them of using electronic eves-dropping devices. As I considered my wife capable and willing of repeating everything that I told her in privacy I never responded to the provocation of wild accusations concerning eves-dropping. But I knew that they were willing to eves-drop if it suited them.

When my splinter group owned their camp they invited a minister named Art Katz from Minnesota down for a visit. I participated in an evening of scriptural discussion with them. After the night was over Art and his friend went back to their romm and discussed their evening in privacy. When one of the men came to tell Barnard that from his room (which was right over Katz's room in the housing) that he could hear everything that Katz and his friend said Barnard told him to go listen to everything they said. It may have been that this man was directly over Katz's friend's room, I'm not certain about that point.

So for me, I already know what they are. It is just a simple question of how far they are willing to go in their violations of basic human dignities.

I want people who may be thinking of visiting them to know these things.

(a little added in editing)

This got me thinking about the double edge sword that a small fellowship can present. There is the possibility of spiritual intimacy, connection, and growth. There's also a good possibility of serious friction and trouble, even if all claim to be Bible believing types who worship and reverence and love God. Unfortunately, we are all flawed humans.

I've found it good to be connected with multiple fellowships, big and small, staying connected to God through holy spirit, and trying hard to listen to the still small voice for direction. There can be some downside to this approach, but it works well for me.

Like, who? CES/stiffy?

seems they didn't exactly "filter out" the good.. they sifted out the conceivable good and left the worst of the practice of "prophecy", authoritarianism and "we're rightism" that da way had to offer..

The boasting that "doctor" would be "proud" of what they are doing, that "dad" would appreciate their organization really suggests to me they are cut from the same cloth, share their ancestor's spiritual dna..

I think the moment they close their eyes and affectionately call vic "doctor".. it quacks like a cult..

and the statement that *we* left twi with da GOLD..

personally.. I think a few stolen doctrinal treatments of how many died with the lord, or how many days and nights he laid in the earth.. or analysis of the bible in terms of "administration" to be pretty trivial currency..

My point is that some who left the Way have been part of new groups, or were involved in developing new groups, which are good and fruitful. I'm not talking about any new group in particular, I'm just talking in general terms.

The definition of a cult is another thing. From my experience, neither the Way nor CES had any of the controlling characteristics of cults. There were some incidents with specific people and situations where there may have been cultish controlling beahvior, but that was not the norm, at least in my experience. Not believing in the doctrine of the trinity doesn't make them cults, it makes them heretical groups in many folks' minds.

Cheers,

CS

Heard he was in Franklin, MA a few years back. Not sure if he's still there.

Yes, you (we all) were in a cult.

Yes, all of the splinters are cults.

:(

What you are saying does not make sense. If what you're saying is true, then anyone who was in the Way, left, and sometime later decided to organize some sort of fellowship/church/ministry, would by default be creating

another cult. And that makes no sense.

"all of the splinters are cults" is in effect saying that anyone who was in the Way has no spiritual

future, and that is obviously false.

There were some who were in the Way who filtered out the good among the bad, grew from the

experience, and continue to prosper.

HELLO SOCKS-NESS, MY OLD FIREND.......I'VE COME TO TALK WITH YOU AGAIN..........LOL!........just a short paraphrase of paul simon's first big hit.............sowwy!

yeah, ......"dr.dale" is part of a self-proclaimed, self-important, and self-inflated "consortium" of unaccredited and undocumented "alien" apostles!...........as important and central to the current cycle of "spiritual events" as was der victoid and the doofus from okie himself!..........i guess they've all got spayshul rewards at the bema set aside for themselves for being so arrogantly and condescendingly "spritually perceptive and aware", above and beyond your average, christian fundamentalist, megalomaniac!

when emerson got "recognized" after graduating from the first "spayshul" corps, he returned to greenville, nc as the limb coord................he promptly engaged in another of his long string of extra-marital affairs with karen ca**ack.............he left his wife, the future trunk coordinator's wife, connie panarello, to run off with karen in the fall of 1975..........this was the same karen c. whose pre-marital affair with jalvis in 2000 or so, caused jalvis' public "downfall" from the presidency of CES, at the hands of swa tra tra herself, culminating in his "firing" as CES prez, and the installation of swa tra tra's husband, mark, as CES' second prez!...........it's a small world after all, ain't it?

there was a brief "alliance" or convergance between CES and "dr.dale's" "ministry" during the late 1990's...........but they split completely and nastily from each other over "doctrinal differences", a euphemism for the unavoidable and predictable clash of the huge and shameless egos common to "dr. dale", jalvis, and the graeser's, as well as schoenheit's "intellectual elitism" as the keeper to the keys of twi's "biblical research" kingdom!

these guys are all the bastard children of der victoid and twi!.............the differences in the hoaxes they perepetuate on the public are basically cosmetic.........their core constituencies are all former twi way corps and other twi affiliated groups.........they pay themselves and praise themselves with no honest public accounting of their financial structures, while persistently trying to cover, obfuscate, or deny their "spiritual pedigree" in the perverse life and "ministry" of der victoid!...........as i've stated before, they are morally and spiritually bankrupt, IMO, and charlatans of the first degree................intellectually vapid, and academic frauds........................true sons of their father in da verd!! happy saturday afernoon to you too bro!..........................peace.

Yo worryfree....

Wow, interesting stuff. Having been a somewhat close partner of the Way back in the 80's, and an arms length affiliate of CES/STFI at times, it really gets kme to think about what I believe and why I believe what I do believe. I was a teenager when I hooked into the Way in 1978, and it helped bring a real troubled young man (me) out of serious pain (though it took many years to get to some semblance of wholeness...about 16 years...). I have learned a lot from various folks in those two organizations, and I have developed some pretty strong spiritual instincts and a pretty intense prayer life.

Now, the American Christian landscape seems a wreck. Most of the "Christian ministers" on TV seem to be frauds. Local churches are stuck in their religious mentality, far from anything like truth setting us really free. Funny thing is, I feel really free in a Christian sense, have found connection with God, and am able to help people. So I guess I'm doing ok, healthy family and family life. Like you, I just have no reason to worry, despite all of the crap flying around...cheers !

Will ponder things more today as I watch some football and sip some Sam Adam's Octoberfest beer.

-CS

Yes, excellent interview. It was great hearing Ralph again. Sounds like he's doing fine. I do miss seeing and hearing from that laid back fun to be with man who's not afraid to say it like it is. Not that I knew Ralph well, but I did meet him once at his home in Lincoln, MA where he gave some straight counsel to a young man who was really down in the dumps. And living in Mass. I really enjoyed his teachings and mostly his ability to connect with people and enjoy life. God bless you, Ralph dude, maybe I';; bump into you here in Mass again if you are still here.

Cheers.

I suppose the thing that bothers me is that a lot of these guys that Vic ordained...and I'm talking about the ones who STILL consider themselves "clergy"...do so, without any credentials whatsoever!...no seminaries...no bible colleges (Emporia doesn't count)...no theological schools...no degrees...nada! The only thing that they hang their hat on is that a cult leader put his hand on his head...

So what is it?...Vic was wrong about what he did and what he taught EXCEPT their ordination?...

I'll toss out all the wrong doctrines but my ordination is not among them?...

Some of them are still with twi...some of them are in splinter groups...some of them are doing "other things" under the tile of "reverend"...

if they really want to be Christian ministers, why don't they go to Moody bible college and take the classes that Vic only pretended to take...go legit!...

Here's the thing...established denominations would never consider these clowns to be clergy...and that's ok with them because Vic taught them, by example, how to make money by starting their own cult...

...Whether they want to admit it or not, they are following in the steps of the cult leader that taught them...

Not having formal clergy training does not bother me so much. There are lots of valid ministers without degrees. Some ministers shoudn't be ministers without a degree or training. Some should. Sometimes "clergy training" can destroy a true ministry.

-Right Reverend JJ

It seems there has been a change in their directors. MG and TR are gone.

http://stfonline.org/about/board.html

Yup, it looks like john schoenheit and dan gallagher are in charge.

Yes all this is tiring. My hope and prayer is that folks will move on break up, repent, reconcile, or do whatever else might be necessary to get on with "living for God and Christ."

Well,

We could play this game longer, but I think we've gone as far as we need to.

So, now I'm going to explain.

etc. etc.

What you saw in this

done face-to-face....

hey wordwolf,

I have been involved in groups where there is personal prophecy going on. Done right, it is pretty powerful

stuff, and can be of considerble blessing and help to the recipient of the prophecy.

In any case, whatever is said has to connect with us and make sense to our spirit. If not, we just have to

discard it.

-CS

I dunno.. there are quite a few "fellowships" that claim affiliation with the group.

If I ran one, I'd send a letter, not email, through the U.S. postal service, requesting that my name be removed from the list..

The sad thing I think, is that a lot of them probably don't have a clue of what's going on..

it's like, der vey ministry, all over again..

i have been involved to some extent in both groups and have to admit that some of the same

unhealthy tendencies exist in both.

I went to one seminar on the Momentus program (I think I also wrote to the guy who initiated it -- and maybe bought one of it's books) about 20 yrs ago. I remember thinking -- This thing is bizarre! But I had to check it out because a very dear friend of mine had recommended it to me. I still love the guy but, I had to pass on his suggestion that I enroll in the program. Too cultish for my taste buds.

i wouldn't say it is cultish. there wasn't any push to keep you as a member or anything like that. people were

free to speak their mind, and leave at anytime.

this type of training is not for all. but some do get a lot from the training. i did.

why would you say it was cultish ?

John Schoenheit is present President of Spirit and Truth Fellowship International and maybe an ok guy. Maybe Dan Gallagher will enlighten us.

Yup, looks like John Shoenheit is prez, and fully engaged in CES. Not sure about Dan or others...I'll do some checking

and get back to you...

I thought this kind of fit here, because this was one of the "inner secrets" ascribed by da vey.<BR><BR>What gives this kind of belief such an appeal?<BR><BR>Is it that people would rather not believe that their fellow human beings are incapable of such horrific acts?<BR><BR>Or is it the charismatic presentation by certain people?<BR><BR>How is it that people are conviced to debate about numbers- "well, there couldn't have been six million- one or two tops" as if that justifies anything?<BR><BR>And it seems that education is not a common denominater. People with VALID college degrees succumb to it.<BR><BR>What's the deal?

Well I can think of a couple possibilitiies...general hatred and jealousy of a group of God's chosen is one reason...maybe denying the Holocaust can make things fit for someone's brand of thinking or religion...Ahmadinejad denies it to try and take. sympathy away from Israel and push forward his end times "Messianic" mission....not sure why the Way might have tried to promote that the 6 million number is an exaggeration.

Wow, Sunesis. What you said. Funny you mentioned VP's true motive in going to San Franscisco. I too, heard that he went there to explore the "free love" movement among the Jesus people. I can't remember who first proposed the idea to me. Probably JAL, but I can't remember for sure.

There is a presence on the Internet of Christians who believe in "free love," "open marriage," etc. Hard to believe I know. So evidently the idea is still alive and well.

I know from the counseling classes I've taken that sexual disfunction normally starts in adolescence. So I find it rather difficult to believe the VP was a man who "succombed to temptation," in the sexual area. Nobody becomes a pervert older in life. It just doesn't happen that way.

As far as whether or not VP was born again, well I think he was. But just because someone is saved, doesn't mean they don't sin. And sin badly. Even narcissitic psycopaths can be born again, I think. But anyway, the question of whether or not he received Jesus as his Lord at one point in his life, is pure speculation. No one can ever know for sure.

Simply amazing some of the stuff I've read in GS. The picture it all gives of VPW is not a warm and fuzzy one. I only heard or saw VPW from a distance. While some of his teachings were illuminating and healing for me, I always had the sesnse that there were some serious things just not right with the man.

Still, my intro to more in depth Christianity came via The Way, and I am thankful for God's working to bring me to his team.

I left the Way about 20 years ago and have had a fairly fruitful life (in a Christian sense).

From what I hear and believe and understand, I would say that VPW was a chosen minister of God who went badly astray. The end result of this is similar to a false prophet, but does not match what I think of as a false prophet or false minister. A false prophet/minister to me is a minister who claims to speak for God as an ordained (by God) minister, even though God has never given the person this "gift."

God bless!

Cs

Knit blankets & caps for preemies & bereaved parents of babies who didn't make it and FEEL GOOD about doing something GOOD for someone other than 'believers'

Knit caps and fingerless mittens for men and women overseas serving this great country of ours and FEEL GOOD about doing something GOOD for someone other than 'believers'

Shop at Salvation Army and Goodwill to add to your collectibles that you now have the money to collect, not because you have to shop there for your clothes, not that there is anything wrong with that, ok???!!!

Have your family over for holidays and not refer to them as your 'earthly family'

Go on vacations to anywhere other than OHIO

Give money to someone in need because you want to and FEEL GOOD about doing something GOOD for someone other than 'believers'

Watch tv shows (yes, you have time to now) and not nitpick them to death spiritually

Ok, enough for now.

Anybody else?????????????

You know that you are no longer in a cult when you start to really understand what talking and listening to

God is all about, and your faith really does start to come together and make sense.

CS,

You also make some good and important points. However, I think that this is where the definition of agape as 'the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' comes into play. I'm not sure that anyone who is truly living agape can end up 'burned out and uninspired' since agape by definition seems to indicate that we have an endless supply at our disposal (the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation). I am leaving out the phrase 'in the household' since that seems to narrow agape down, and I'm not sure it is accurate.

jeaniam,

Yep I do believe that if you really hook into "true agape" you will have an almost endless supply

of energized love. Not endless because of the limits of our bodies. I think I've hooked in at times...

only to later fall off, tangled and brought down by my own weakness, sin, etc. But I always get back up.

And I also agree that staying in "agape love" is a good way to keep from being burned

out and uninspired. The other kinds of love are energizing too, but prone to failure.

Lots of talking with God - prayer - and "doing" have helped me get a better handle on

agape. I think I have at least some grasp of what it is and how it works, though I may not always

be able to explain it well.

peace and agape,

CS

Dear Another Spot,

You talked about getting to a level where "It's not important how others treat you" ... as tho' this is the apex of Agape. Did I understand you correctly?

THIS concept of Agape is the one that gets dangerous. In fact, this concept of Christianity itself is the classic twist in the road, that has led so many well-meaning people AWAY from the sort of life that God wants for us.

Why?

Because we prioritize Service above Self. And then we get sick or impoverished or cynical, because we have de-valued our own worth in order to take care of everyone else. This is sick. This is not the divine plan.

As someone said earlier, we are not required to have nails pounded into our hands, because Jesus did that for us. Now THIS was God's plan, God's Agape. Not only do we not have to do this, we are not able to do this.

To presume that we can even approach loving at the level that God loves us ... is ridiculous (maybe even blasphemy!). And to religiously make ourselves "low man on the totem pole" is ... sin.

TWI and most churches are in defiance of God when they ignore - or more precisely when they condemn - the Godly principal of loving one's self. If we could get this straight, if we could be taught this as children, then we could vastly reduce so much mental illness, divorce, suicide, cult participation, poverty, lots of stuff.

And once we understand and actually practice self-love to a healthy and genuine degree, then we can love our neighbors AS OURSELVES at the level and fullness that God intended. The results? Ohmygosh ... imagine it !!!

Shifra

Hi shifra,

You make some good and important points. I've read some helpful books lately dealing which dug deep

into some of loving the "agape" way and staying emotionally and spiritually balanced.

The whole thing about loving ourselves and God as ourselves might lead us to think that if we don't love ourselves

very much then it will be hard to love others or God very much. If our gas tank is empty, it is hard to do much

for anyone. There's a lot of truth to this, though I've seen a lot of vain selfish Christians who can't get past taking

care of their own selves.

On the other hand, you have folks who's self worth seems to be totally tied to how

much they do for others, and who end up burned out and uninspired - this is the other side of supposed "agape"

love gone too far. Agape love seems to live best somewhere in the middle between vanity and being a slave for

others.

I think that the "free indeed" that Christ came to give us is a place that can be found. Not just a land of milk and honey

that we'll see in a distant biblical administration. But also a real place possible in the here and now of emotional

and spiritual health and true connection to God where we are blessed in a deep way and want the same for others.

If we can get there, then we can at least some of the time do the right things for the right reasons.

-CS