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napkinlady

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  1. Wow, thanks Belle. And Bliss all the best to you. Just one more thing on what I did. The neatest thing about it was that when I left I didn't have the doubt and fear that so many other's had cause I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was doing what God wanted me to do. And that even if I had screwed up and wasn't doing, God would pull a talking-foot- Balaam kind of thing to stop me because I was truly trying to do His will completely. So sure was I that when in fact a region coordinator called me and asked me not to leave, my answer was easy. I told him that I had asked God what to do and He had told me to leave, but I would be happy to ask God again and see if He had changed His mind. Anyway, the blessings that have abounded are too many to even mention since we left. Besides they are nothing compared to what God has in store for you. Belle, I was SO happy to read your happy day post! Truly outside of twi is where the abundant life is nowadays!
  2. I don't know if personal experience will help you any (of course TWI says personal experience means nothing - oops - unless you were witnessing and then it meant everything and could never be refuted) but once I started questioning doctrine the flood gates opened. God can't show you what is wrong when you refuse to believe anything might be wrong. God can't show you what is wrong when you have been convinced that to even question what you have been taught is devil spirit influence. Nice little racket twi has going. I too believed that there was nothing else out there so when I first started to doubt, I did the very same thing I did before I attended my very first fellowship. I prayed. I remember it vividly. I said, "God you know how much I have wanted to know you so if this is IT you are gonna have to show me." My great big wonderful GOD did just that. What I learned in the Bible that night (back in 1981) worked! It made a difference in my life and I knew it was God's Word that had done it. Twenty years later, what twi taught no longer worked. First I saw it in finances and from there realized that twi worships twi and NOT the Word of God. My teenage son said, "Mom isn't that idolatry?" and I knew it was. At that point I didn't know what to do, so I went back to the beginning. I prayed and told God, that if TWI was NOT where He wanted me, He would have to show me because I believed it was His will for me to stay there and I was not going looking for anything else. He showed me over and over and over in many many ways that TWI was NOT where He wanted me. Just like the Bible says, the eyes of my understanding were opened and I could see clearly that the twi doctrines and rules and fear motivations and punishments were a religion and not a religion that gave glory to the God I wanted to worship. I too thought there was nothing else out there and then I realized that the doctrines and teachings that DID work and I DID still believe didn't need to be "out there" because they were in me! I didn't need to be taught them over and over, I knew them and could apply them whenever I wanted and even teach them to someone else if I wanted. At that point I allowed myself to re-read the Bible. This time I used a clean one, with no notes and decided that instead of reading it with twi as the "good guys" in it, (you know as Paul or Jesus etc), I was going to see what it said if I put twi in the place of the "bad guys" (the legalistic pharisees etc). I started in Romans and went all through the epistles just reading and reading with no notes to cloud anything. What an eye opener! It made much more logical sense that way than it ever did before. The Bible says a great deal about twi and it is not what "Rise and Expansion" says it says about twi! Anyway, I don't know if anything I did might help you, but I DO know that God can and will help you just like He has me and thousands more who are now free to worship him as the loving, all-powerful, good God that He really is! (TWI's God is a very small god that is always overpowered by devil spirit influence. Worshipping him has lead to the downfall of many many people many of whom are still in or hiding out in Toledo). All the best to you and your hubby.
  3. Would love to hear the one on how to buy a house cash from scratch without any previous mortgage or inheritance. Hey, I guess I went L*AD this year cause I learned how to hike in snowshoes and set up a snow shelter and pack neccessities. Only I guess I did it the hard way, I put the snowshoes on my feet and walked! The I read a book from the library on snow shelters. What bunk! Oh, maybe the snow shelters are the housing that people who live debt free have to resort to living in. Maybe that is how twi wants its people to live now.
  4. By the way, TWI and waygb, I still feel that way, teach your people the TRUTH about debt or fold!
  5. I just thought the conclusion of the paper (which was sent to the Board of Directors of TWI in November of 2001) might be of interest. As I re-read it now, I see alot of waybrain, however it was where my heart and head were at the time. It was a very tough time in my life and yet has turned out to me the very best time, because it got me the heck out of a very evil cult! and on to a very wonderful life! "CONCLUSION: This definition of debt fits with every verse of scripture in the New Testament. It is: any obligation that becomes past due, be it financial or legal or spiritual. Any committment not kept. Any duty not performed. Any obligation not met. It is not the committments, obligation, or duties themselves (no matter how they are worded or what they are called). It is the non-performance that determines what becomes debt. When I presented this definition to my fellowship coordinator, he rightly asked me, "If anyone finds holes in this, are you willing to change your mind?". My answer both then and now is an emphatic YES. But by the same token, life, logic and what I have presented above exposes the holes in what we have been taught so far. That is why I have been obligated to change my mind about what we have been taught so far. I changed it to the definition of debt as presented above, and in doing so all the things that I needed clarification on as to whether or not they were debt became clarified. Is rent? NO, only if past due. Is a car loan? No, only if past due. Is child support? No, only what is past due. It goes on and on. Remember, I have only presented a definition to show what is lawful for us. 1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (KJV) 1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (KJV) I am not saying, car loans, mortgages, student loans, child support etc. are best or even smart or expedient. I am simply saying they are not debt. Going out and maxing ones credit card and then only making minimum payments violates other principals of the Word. It is not good stewardship of the money God gives you. It is not traveling light. However, if you make the payments agreed to with the credit card company it is not debt. Let's be good financial stewards, Let's live with what we need and not allow greed to affect our decisions. Then, let's meet our financial obligations, knowing that it is only when we do not, that we are in debt and out of fellowship. NOW WHAT: I believe that the Word of God is very clear on this subject as well as every other. If what I have seen in the Word and just presented can be refuted in some way, then by all means please point out my error to me, because I want my thinking to line up with the Word. Please give me a definition of debt that corrects my error. Then I can plug that definition into every verse and see the beauty of God's wonderful matchless Word. Once we have that definition, let's teach it. What is being taught in the ministry right now: 1)that Rom 13:8 is the standard for financial living, 2)that Rom 13:8 is what shows us that we are not to take out loans of any kind and that we are in debt and sinning if we do, 3)that we won't truly grow spiritually until we pay off every financial obligation, and 4)that God can do anything, therefore we should rent and save up money for a house, is not backed up sufficiently in the Word to make it what it has become; which is one of the foundational doctrines of our ministry. It seems to be right up there with "Jesus Christ is not God" and "The dead are not alive". Yet, we have volumes written that expound every scripture on these subjects to show us without any shadow of doubt that these doctrines are true. We have not even clarifed for our people what is and is not debt. I needed deliverance. I went to the Word and was still confused, because I still didn't see how what we were teaching fit. I asked my leadership, and then I went to the Word again. This time without the preconceived notion of what debt was. I got my deliverence. In looking at every verse, by the time I got to 1 Co 7:3 and 2 Co 12:11, the truth was shouting at me. I was delivered. I had no more frustration or condemnation. I could focus my energy on moving the Word instead of trying to put and keep a roof over my head. I do not believe I am alone in feeling bound by a doctrine that I do not see in the Word and which is near to impossible to live with. In fact, I cannot see how to merge the ministry thinking on debt (especially in the area of housing) with other verses in the Word. Matthew 6:31-32 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)--> for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. (KJV) I got delivered because, I am no longer expending so much energy on housing. I can rent, lease, mortgage, land contract or do anything else. We have decided to get a roof over our head for the long term in whatever way fits our family finances, will best prepare us for retirement, and that fits with the rest of the Word of God. For example, we are told to be good stewards of God's money and that preparation is the highest form of believeing. We will apply these truths to planning for our retirement and leaving something for our children for whom the Word does say we should "lay up". I got delivered from the condemnation I was in from having questioned debt and for even asking for a definition. I thought I was wrong for trying to figure out how to have a roof over my head after I retire. I thought I was looking for loopholes to see how I could get what I want and still be in good standing with the ministry. I got delivered from qualifying people in our minds before we bring them to our ministry. Even though I know that the ministry has never said, "Do not witness to anyone who makes their living by ways we consider debt," practically speaking, why would I bring my landlord to fellowship where he is going to learn that God wants him to sell all of his properties that he doesn't own outright? These are what gives him his livelihood. He would have to change professions! I do not see in the Word where bankers, creditors, lenders, lords or kings or rich people, who all lent money, were told to change professions or were not able to get born again. True, I do not see any records of them getting born again, but I do not see any plumbers or writers either. Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (KJV) This area of ministry thinking is keeping the greater truths of the Word from people. People think we are nuts for living under these rules. Their church lets them have a home. Why would they bother coming and hearing about the greatness of the grace administration and living in liberty and that Christ has made them free, if we are going to treat them as second class believers and babes if they do not sell their house because it is mortgaged. I got delivered from the condemnation I had because I had chosen the foolish way out of debt. I had sold my house that was mortgaged and I would have been able to pay it off by now, or if not now, I am sure it could have been paid off by the time I save up enough to buy one cash while paying someone else rent. Once I saw the truth, I knew that was all past and it didn't matter anymore and that I could start fresh and move on. I know that I am not alone in my questions. We owe it to our people to release them with the truth of the Word. If not by way of the definition I have presented, then at least with one that does work, and fits with every truth of the Word; not just some of them. In this ministry year of "Speaking the Truth in Love", let's start with speaking the truth in love to our household on the subject of debt."
  6. Wow Belle, Your little fingers must be hurting from typing all this in. I just thought I might put the link to my debt research on here for anyone to comment on. I'd love to hear about any holes in logic that are in it. That is of course what I asked my twi leadership to do when I gave it to them. I told them I needed to know what biblical research principal I was missing or what points of logic I was wrong on. But of course I never heard anything from anyone at all on the subject other than their telling me that they would work it and get back to me. (Oh, and that I was wrong)Well, these notes that Belle have typed DO NOT FIT with the Bible in any way shape or form. According to these notes Jesus Christ was in debt until he paid off our sin in full and therefore would not be eligible for leadership of God's people. Anyway I thought some of you might be interested in the link. http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm
  7. Wow, a lot of great things said here, so I thought as a licensed financial advisor and one licensed to supervise financial advisors, I might throw in my two cents. Math doesn't lie. Look at your situation and see where you come out ahead in the end. Mortgage or rent? Both of them are a mortgage. One is yours and one is someone elses. For twi to say a mortgage is wrong is ludricrous. The ABS of "in debt" believers has been and is still paying tons of landlords' mortgages as we speak and especially during the years we were all encouraged to sell our houses and rent. My mortgage that I was granted in 1994 was touted in the corps teachings by lcm as a manifestation of believing if not a miracle. S*m and Chery** Wa**on used it for the entire year as a teaching example of how my beleiving had brought the impossible to pass. It was not considered debt at that time because I could sell it and pay it off. How quickly things changed! By the way the very first thing I found fascinating in my debt research was that the word borrower and the word lender in the much quoted "the borrower is servant to the lender" verse are the exact same word! How could that be was a question I pondered at length until I realized that it was not a judgement verse but a statement of fact. With money comes power. Not that rich are good and poor are bad. To borrow there must be one that lends. You can't have the transaction without both. In our terminology the borrower is servant to the lender but in reality the lender is also serving the borrower by lending him money. No judgement - just statment of fact. Money brings power. And lending it to someone is a service. Paying it back is also a service. Isn't life fun when you get to think??
  8. Out There, I figure they can twist and manipulate it somehow to suit their purposes! lol
  9. Sorry, I just had to post one more thing from the notes. According to this teaching, Gal 5:3 talks about man being a debtor to do the whole law. In these notes it says, "By using the word 'debt' in the book of Galations here, the lack of financial needs to fulfill a debt and the bondage that results, is likened unto a lack of spiritual needs to fulfill the Law. People don't - it took JC - one with perfect blood. God's only begotten son is the only one who ever had the means to fulfill the debt and the bondage that results from debt of the Law." So I guess JC would not have been able to take the advanced class because until he fulfilled all the law, he was in debt under their definition. Since "Being debt free is among the qualification for the participation in the adanced class, coordination of a household fellowship and other rolls of service and leadership." I guess he was just S O L. But there is hope for Jesus, cause they do go on to say in their disclaimer that "the fact that a person has not yet fulfilled the requirements for a particular class or a particular level of service is not a negative assessment of their life." So they are not looking down on Jesus Christ while he is in debt and once Jesus Christ died and fulfilled all the debt of the law, he could then run a fellowship cause then he was no longer in debt. What poppycock! The truth of the Word is Galations 5:3. If you want to go back to the law, then you are obligated to do all the law! Is being obligated a bad thing? NO! NO NO a thousand times in the Bible it is clear that it is not a bad thing. Being obligated and not doing it is the problem. JC had no problem with God while he was obligated to do the law, because GOD was satisfied with how JC was paying off that obligation one step at a time! Ok, I am done now. Thank for letting me vent. They make me so mad at how they twist and pervert the Bible for their own twisted and perverted agendas!
  10. While going through my boxes looking for my summer shorts (I still can't find those things) I happened to come accross the set of notes someone was kind enough to give me on twi's presentation on debt. It is way too long to type and I am not too computer literate, but if anyone wants a copy of what I was given, I'd be happy to mail it to them. Just email me at napkinlady@yahoo.com. Waygb are welcome also but must provide a self addressed stamped envelope. In general: twice the disclaimer (blatant lie to those of us who lived it) of "We do not have a policy that mandates what people do with their personal finances..." is in there. The definition for debt that they give is "to have in one's account unsatisfied financial or moral obligations" Then they go on and on about debt referring to it as meaning to owe or be under obligation. There is a big difference between owing and an unsatisfied financial obligation. If you have a financial obligation it is either satisfied (up to date in payments) or unsatisfied (late in payments). If they want satisfied to mean paid in full and unsatisfied to mean not paid in full, there is no need to qualify the word obligation at all. Once an obligation is fulfilled it is NO LONGER AN OBLIGATION. It is not a satisfied obligation, it is no longer an obligation. The car I paid off in 1972 is not a satisfied obligation. It is NO LONGER an obligation at all. The car I am paying for now is a satisfied obligation. The VW credit company is satisfied with how I am meeting my obligation to them. Once it is paid off, they send me the title and consider me no longer obliged. Funny how a biblical research teaching can completely lose grasp of the English language! But that is twi.
  11. Thank you David for your comments. Reading this just did me a world of good. Best teaching I've heard on the subject ever!
  12. Well, it has been quite awhile since I have been to the cafe, and in skimming through various posts it was nice to see that the fighting among patrons that used to go on seems to have died out. Hooray! But imagine my surprise to see my name in a Greasespot topic! How honored I was! My thanks to all who still take a stand on twi's lies about God's opinion of debt. Someone was kind enough to send me notes from twi's counter teaching on my research a while back. It was quite interesting to read. It starts off by giving a definition of debt that is almost word for word the same as what I came up with. The gist was certainly there. I was thrilled to see that they too had arrived at the same conclusion. Then they went on and on and on about how evil debt was etc. It was the old teachings over and over almost as though they had completely forgotten the definition they had just given. If one left out the beginning and had to draw a conclusion of what debt was based on the context of the teaching one would come to the erroneous conclusion that debt was equal to owing. It was really quite sad. But at any rate, hats off to all you at the cafe. It has been way too long since I popped in for a cup. Life is so good outside of twi, it is hard to find the time to visit like perhaps I should. I'm glad to see the information is still running freely here. Some of the comments I have read tonight have been priceless. Just knowing that if Rosie steps down there is a trinity of VPs ready to take over will keep me smiling for days!
  13. I guess no copies means no copies except for the people that paid for it originally. I'll have to keep emailing MSNBC and Terry Bradshaw's people that their endorsement of a documented, destructive cult is alive and well and being exploited to its fullest on the world wide web. Napkinlady Fold TWI, Fold!
  14. Maybe the drain is from legal bills spent defending lawsuits and threatening jp with lawsuits of their own? Napkinlady Fold TWI, Fold!
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