Bolshevik
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On 7/3/2023 at 7:37 AM, penworks said:
Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:
MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?
CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.
1 minute ago, chockfull said:No just documenting the logic hops from start to destination. In case there are others who can’t hop that fast including myself.
See . . . she even addressed you! lol
Wierwillle said ---> Feelings
Wierwille said ---> Feelings
Wierwille said ---> Feelings
There's a clear attachment to Wierwille. Most people would have just ignored him. I've heard about this my entire life. I don't know what anyone saw in him. But there was clearly an attachment.
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2 minutes ago, chockfull said:
So connect the dots?
VPW -> NPD -> sometimes stunted -> six year old -> mother-child dynamic -> helplessness????
Sure that’s so obvious I don’t see how I missed the connection between all those things
When I read the writers text, reposted several times . . .
- . . . ohh are you gaslighting again?
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2 minutes ago, chockfull said:
You’re using Stockholm syndrome to defend all the abused who grew up and became abusers?
No, I said at some point those who've been gaslit need to take responsibility.
I keep pointing at the fact that gaslighting requires more factors to be present than simply a "predator" and a "victim". Something is drawing the "victim" in. The "predator" doesn't even need to understand what that is. But it seems the narrative that VPW had superpowers, maybe he did indeed take down the USSR. -
Just now, Nathan_Jr said:
Wow. I did not say that at all.
See, my parents and their countless friends in The Way are the victims.
For me to say they are all responsible for say, swinging a spoon for no reason, would make me a vicitm-blamer.
See the problem?
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Just now, chockfull said:
The post where you said she sounded completely helpless and something about VPW and a 6 year old having the same control is something you can scroll back and review if you don’t recall.
Your lack of memory seems to be the derailment here.
You’re probably right on the hate I don’t have very much capacity or interest in hating TWI any more. I still call them out though so others avoid their snare and because telling the truth is freeing.
No I remember that.
VPW is sometimes thought of as an NPD, NPDs are stunted in development, like a six year old, or younger. Absolutely the mother-child dynamic comes into play here.
She did sound helpless.
Why is that not an accurate description? I was being honest.
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52 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
The subjectivity of gaslighting doesn’t make it any less real.
One’s perception of reality becomes distorted over time. The manipulation is subtle, incremental, imperceptible. The victim or target or (choose a word) does not actively participate in the way you seem to suggest.
The manipulated cannot or does not see he is participating in being manipulated. Or, if he does see it, he has been manipulated not to trust what he sees. That’s why it’s called manipulation. And it is psychologically violent abuse.
The subjective perception of others choosing to blame the victim or target or (choose a word) compounds and perpetuates this abuse. This victim blaming is unintentional gaslighting by the (choose a word) blamer.
But when one finally wakes up to what is going on (see Waysider’s post), one can freely take back one’s lost sanity. One can break out of the psychological prison.
We do choose our behavioral responses to emotions. The manipulated don’t realize they are making these choices. When the veil is lifted, when we are awakened by the lightning strike, we start to see this, and we start to change our choices and behavior.
Sanity is lost, destroyed. Not leveraged - correction.
I hear you saying The Way International is my fault.
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52 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Gaslighting is violence. Sanity is leveraged.
gaslighting is subjective. The other person doesn't literally hold your sanity. I think a word missing earlier was subjective. If you feel they hold your sanity, why is that? That looks like power given freely to another.
emotions are also subjective. followed by a physiological response. followed by a behavior
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1 hour ago, chockfull said:
I was addressing a direct criticism of the authors augmented post personally attacking her life.
That is not derailment it is direct on point.
I don't recall personally attacking her life on this thread.
I'm pointing at a pattern of behavior among many people, which she highlighted well. I brought posts back to show you. You are appearing to be creating a diversion.
Using "empathy" as means to shut down thinking.
And PS.
I hate The Way International more than you are capable of.
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If you want empathy, yes those feelings suck. I gave my own example.
But what happens going forward is what matters more. They psyched themselves out of acting to their own benefit.
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On 7/3/2023 at 7:37 AM, penworks said:
Thanks, Chockful. I'm glad to share that interview here. One of my favorite questions from Prof. Moss and my answer:
MM: In the last chapter, “Turning the Tide,” you write about the denial of feelings that had become so prevalent in The Way’s teachings. Could you please elaborate on that aspect?
CLE: One of Wierwille’s pet phrases was “Feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever.” What he meant was that we were not to trust our feelings because they change all the time. And because they change, Wierwille told us they were unreliable sources for truth about ourselves. When our feelings contradicted Wierwille, we were trained to reject those feelings. One important example of this from my own life is in Undertow: Even when my gut feelings told me that the man I married had betrayed me and was not good for me, I was supposed to reconcile with him because the Bible said to forgive.
Bringing this back too.
CLE is not listening to herself at this time.
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17 hours ago, waysider said:
This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.
Bringing this back. I thought waysider made a good description. I don't think this experience is unique to cults.
It is a situation telling the person something needs to change.
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6 minutes ago, chockfull said:
Ok but I don’t have the same Lord of the Flies view you do about young people making stupid decisions and turning themselves into animals.
Once you remove the cult surroundings in my experience young people don’t really do that.
I'm repeating what I read on GSC.
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The Way, this cult The Way International. Mostly targeted young adults.
Young adults make stupid decisions. Who then turned themselves into animals.
Why get butt hurt trying to pull out the leverage? Young adults had some defense. Most do not.
Further, The Way east and Way West was hijacked. Crap defense.
That key
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Just now, chockfull said:
Stories are only good for object lessons. And warnings to remain vigilant so the next traveling salesman doesn’t trick the gullible out of all they have saved up. Without vigilance and discernment and distinction how do you keep from wandering from cult to cult?
I posted about another cult, Chockful.
They target emotions. Re-socializing young children.
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Just now, chockfull said:
Now who is being the drama queen? Just like your answer to C if you don’t read it it doesn’t exist and there is a net zero effect.
I think you're derailing.
The author brought of feelings feelings feelings. Trying to get under that.
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Just now, chockfull said:
I mean you are straddling a fence. Your support systems are in TWI. But you aren’t.
You understand your world but not worlds outside yours. That’s pretty normal and average.
This is the dilemma of the cult. Keep all the support systems under control so they can’t truly leave.
I understand what good are these stories if they can't be employed against the next cult.
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1 minute ago, chockfull said:
Any answer where you don’t randomly attack concepts people are sharing and ridiculing them and their life story they published would be a good start.
Am I to understand some things can never be questioned?
Wasn't Mein Kampf a plea to the emotions?
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A plea for empathy and vulnerability is a strategy of cults. Yes?
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Just now, chockfull said:
Umm that would be empathy.
What is the correct answer you would like to hear from me?
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1 minute ago, chockfull said:
I read what you wrote here. It sounds completely without empathy. It sounds like you refuse to acknowledge the ties that family, friends, marriages, and long time associations produce by nature of those relationships existing.
Sure at any time any of us could have escaped the bondage we endured by refusing at that moment to accept the false authority usurped by tyrants, cutting ties and leaving.
So what?
I find your example comparing this to hitting yourself in the hand repeatedly to be very inaccurate as well as triggering and judgmental. Ties formed by family and choices aren’t easily reversed. You can’t just wave your hand like they never existed.
But that’s you so it’s par for the course.
As I said, empathy is a weapon. Used by cults.
I have burned bridges. It left me completey isolated, homeless, broke, etc.
I still have family in TWI.
I don't understand what you think I don't understand.
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16 hours ago, waysider said:
This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.
I've felt that in TWI. I've felt that in another circumstance. Of course with TWI I didn't exactly burn bridges . . . BUT . . . cutting the cord is supposed to be painful.
Usually I remember I would freeze up, just stand there. Was late teens/early 20s a lot. Then the group would bring someone like the Limb Leader for a scream fest. Followed by I would go through the motions for awhile longer.
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8 hours ago, Rocky said:
The entire third chapter of Mama's Last Hug discusses empathy and sympathy.
I go back in my mind to reflect on the lack of concern both Wierwille and Martindale consistently (at least in the open) demonstrated toward those outside of the "in group." They, of course, defined the "in group" as the Household." Further defined as those who "took the class and stood with twi."
. . .
LCM used to argue "everyone NEEDS to believe something" . . . it was a threat . . . coercing a decision
Same with sense of belonging . . . it is used to encourage people to make a decision to emotionally attach to something they probably should not . . . everyone needs to belong . . . you feel it don't you? . . . well you belong here . . . and we will help you feel the feely feels the way other places do not. . . . Now here's some more vocabulary for our little love language for your brain
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17 hours ago, waysider said:
"If you leave now, the adversary will have free reign to harm your family."
(or so we are told, as Advanced Class grads.)
Correct. It's also a blatant lie. Authority is handed over to the liar. The name of this website says the liar still holds it.
P, P-FAL
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1 hour ago, waysider said:
I would say that in my case, at least, this would most closely describe my involvement.
There were no legal complications for me, though I can certainly recognize this wasn't the case for everyone, especially for people who had child custody issues to be resolved.
edit: Escape can be a rather broad term. For me, it was not a case of being physically restrained.
The P in PFAL stands for power. The person least invested holds the power.
GSC offers first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in trap
in About The Way
Posted
I refuse to believe VPW was that convincing. There's no evidence. I heard the tapes. GSC is here to make him a god. Your crew seems to still feed the golden calf. GSC is no different than putting a billboard on the roadside. It's there. It's asking for attention. It blocks the view. What should have been handled in smaller bits was broadcasted all willy nilly. Everything has a price.
I figure 1 jerk = 1 month?
JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERKJERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERk JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK JERK