JavaJane

At first I thought about putting this one in the Doctrinal section, but I think I'm looking for something not doctrinal, but practical... I have some questions: 1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control? 2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will? 3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon? I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...." But, was this truly the case? Where does free will end and where does it begin? How does spiritual abuse factor into the concept of free will? Past experiences? I thought maybe asking some people who have been manipulated by twi would have some answers and be able to shed some light on this. Thanks for listening and thanks for posting!

I'm getting there, too! Thanks for the thread!

I also was raised in twi, but not until I was a teenager, thank God! My main concern for the children raised in it was the extremely sheltered life they led, without being exposed to anything that was considered "devilish" - no He-Man, no books with magic or fairies, or aliens. No scary movies... and not being allowed to be around other normal children. I have often wondered if this led to extremely rebellious behavior after they were finally out on their own. It did to me, and my parents weren't that bad! Once I was out of the house, it was like the world was my candy store, and I had as much of it as I possibly could (except for drugs, because I figured that would lead to IMMEDIATE possession, which scared the poop out of me.) Ended up in some bad situations because I didn't understand what was going on - I was toooo niave. Mr. and Mrs. B - did this happen to you guys, too?

No, not that you were born of a toilet, simply that your name was... How can they expect people to stay as an employee when basic human dignity is ignored??

Have to go to work soon, so this will be short: Just wanted to thank all of you for giving me something deep to think about today! I have come to the conclusion that one of the greatest things God gave us was free will... even greater than any Law or commandment, He gave us the ability to think and choose freely how we want to be. This right is incredibly huge. It must hurt His heart terribly to have that right squelched or to have His children taught that only one way of loving Him is right. To teach people to turn off that ability that even natural man has to choose right or wrong and simply be led blindly has got to earn people (as my husband says) "a special place in hell." Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. There's a happy thought! Keep thinking!!

May you live to be a thousand years old, DOOJABLE!! I also hate trite art. We used to call it back in college - artsy and vague... boring peices of art with no meaning behind them! As for the righteous anger bit, that's the subject of one project I am in the midst of... it's become cathartic for me as I work to express this anger in the situations my characters find themselves in. So, maybe, one day, you might get a glimpse of that righteous anger in a written form... I just need to finish the darn thing!

This is one of my biggest problems with some writing - the authors get so caught up in using big expensive words that it takes forever to figure out what exactly they are trying to say - gets a little bit annoying. R&E book was like that for me... And eloquent phrases that mean nothing are the absolute worst... It's such an easy way of looking smart without saying anything (i.e. "God bless you abundantly in the powerful prevailing name of our living Lod and Savior Jesus Christ, I greet you with a holy kiss... blah blah blah... only really worked for epistles, not every damn document... especially greeting cards when a simple "happy birthday, we love you" would probably really make someone very happy.

Boys will be boys... so don't even give them an opportunity if you can help it! It always bothered me when I would hear about multiple married WC couples having to share a room together. Did this actually happen, or is it a rumor? I heard it so long ago, I may have just not heard it correctly. Then again, with some of the things I have heard posted here, maybe it really did happen. yuck.

Ok, Mr. B... you asked for it Excerpts from emails from various points of view regarding the conscience and morality: (warning – lengthy post) Agnostic: My general thought/feeling is that there are some good values taught by the Bible. BUT… and it’s a big but… I have a massive problem with the more extremist factions that act as if good values begin and end with Christianity, as if prior to Moses everyone ran around killing and wife-swapping and so on. Simple logic dictates that societies would not have existed in the form they did at that time had there been mass chaos and absolutely no morals or ethics. It’s good business to be honest and not kill your neighbor or steal stuff from your boss, and business was thriving by all archeaoligical accounts. …It just really gets me when people imply that if you’re not Christian, you’re some sort of unpredictable chaotic neutral potential evil. Christian Minister: Okay, so then where does our conscience (that which tells us right from wrong or even suggests that there is a right and wrong) come from?... Seems to imply some sort of Maker of humans, doesn’t it? How can science explain the source of a conscience? How does science explain things like love, beauty, awe and wonder, creativity, the desire to be in a relationship with others, etc? Athiest: It appears what is being referred to is the existence of a soul. I’m sure we’ve all heard of dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, melatonin, etc… Those are all chemicals that are present in our brains and bodies, and we know (again, thanks to science) that these chemicals are linked to emotions. Not only do we know of the link, we can even manipulate brain chemistry through medication and see a direct and predictable effect on emotions. And conversely, we can stimulate emotional responses and see corresponding and predictable changes in the brain. …so what does this have to do with a conscience or a soul? All of the things you have implied are evidence of some higher, external force acting on humans are emotions, which science tells us are controlled and created by chemicals internal to the human body. Evolution also explains several of your questions. …all of these things are traits that (most) people possess. They are also traits that are necessary for the human race to survive. Natural selection does an excellent job of explaining these things, despite what the Kansas School Board would have you believe. JavaJane: I agree with the agnostic’s viewpoint and strangely can quote something from the Bible to back it up: Romans 2:10a But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good… Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. Romans 2:14 Even when the Gentiles who do not have God’s written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. Romans 2:15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. Unitarian: I have four worthless comments that will add absolutely nothing to this fascinating dialogue and discussion: 1. I don’t believe in God but I am very interested in Her. 2. Sometimes I think we’re alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we’re not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. 3. The greatest tragedy in mankind’s entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. 4. The god that the atheists deny never existed. Undeclared: Well, I certainly believe in “God” – but I also believe that “God” is the ultimate scientist – Creator of the Universe! Agnostic: Do I believe in a god? (notice I didn’t ask if there is a god, just if I believe in one.) I go back and forth on this one. If there is something out there, I’m damn sure that it’s absolutely horrified at what the American Christian church – and most others, probably – has been up to. I can’t think of anyone who should be more ....ed off than the Christians about the president using God as a reason for anything. I generally think that religions are beautiful things that should be preserved, and the whole “because God told me to” just irks me. It’s like using a Greek bust for a boat anchor. And as for atheists, I don’t know that I really pit myself in that group, mainly because so many of them are so obnoxious… as are fundamentalist Christians. What good does it do you to coerce/nag/guilt people into joining? Doesn’t it just weaken your church? I should clarify that I do NOT think that this is because of the religion – JavaJanes’s quotes made that clear – there is such a sense of self-righteousness or pride or correctness that is carried around by many Christians, and I’d have to say that if there’s one thing that keeps me absolutely sure that I’m disinterested, it’s that attitude. Christian: It once occurred to me that man was the only animal capable of good and evil. If I ever set out to “prove” that there was (or WHY there was) a God, I think this is where I would start. Animals take on characteristics that we say are good or bad, but in the end an animal can only follow its instinct. A well-trained dog may not dig through the trash when you are gone, but it’s not out of any moral obligation. (This may be a foundation of most people’s ethics too, but I digress.) I think the mystery of God and goodness and the devil and evil is in the choice we have. Why are we the only species that has the ability to act beyond our instinct? Why can a man chose to starve to death before he steals bread? Why are we different? Good deeds would cease to be good if they were either instinctual or automatic. It’s only in the ability to choose one action over another that our lives have any moral weight at all. It’s hard to argue that the ability to override animal emotion was a survival mechanism evolved over time. It would argue that adherence to biological instinct would prove to be a much more resilient trait. I think we are what we are because God, taking the chance we might turn out absolutely horrible, gave us the chance to be good, and I think that’s where our link to God lies. It’s not in the faith you profess (cause who really cares? God?) It’s in what you do with your life. …Ghandi once said “To me God is Truth and Love. God is Ethics and Morality. God is Fearlessness. God is the essence of life and light and yet He is above and beyond all these. God is conscience. He is even the atheism of the atheist. For in His boundlessness, God permits the atheist to live. He is the searcher of hearts. He is a personal God to those who need His personal presence. He is embodied to those who need His touch. Atheist: I try to avoid associating intelligence or lack thereof with religious devotion (or lack thereof), but you do make an interesting point. I’ve always had the same belief that most people never examine why they believe in their given religion. And, hopefully I’m not offending anyone, but I’ve always found it to be extremely bizarre behavior to believe so strongly in something and be totally devoted to it and let it make your life choices for you, without ever honestly considering any other option, or for that matter, without CONSTANTLY considering other options. That’s how humanity has achieved so much – not by continuing to do the same thing over and over again just because that’s how it’s “always” been done. Some people believe choice is an illusion; that we’re all just passively playing out our little parts in the inevitable result of the grand scheme of things, whatever that is. I generally don’t buy that. I think we do have free will. Agnostic: Many people have this idea that someone that does not believe in God would be miserable, without morals, directionless, would have not hope and not dreams for the future and no joy in their lives. The truth of the matter is quite opposite. For me, there was a sudden realization that I am accountable not to some invisible spirit who may or may not be paying attention and may or may not care, but to myself. That the good that I do can be attributed to me, and for the bad I must hold myself responsible. I did not suddenly think “there are no consequences for my actions” as people seem to think atheists believe, rather I thought, “there are massive consequences for my actions.” …a true atheist realizes that no one is going to save us except us. There is no God to clean up my mess or help me make a decision or find me a job. There is no safety net. I said before I don’t tend to call myself an atheist because so many of them are so obnoxious. There are pretty much two groups: People who are trying to get a rise out of other who haven’t really thought about I, and use it because it sounds good and they don’t like church. These people tell everyone they can they are atheists and try to disprove others beliefs often with a good chunk of “I’m smarter than you” thrown in. And secondly, people like me. JavaJane: Funny, how similar my arguments are for not wanting to tell most people I am a Christian. Christian Minister: Yep. Any group of people has some resemblance to these two classifications. Unitarian: Story goes that while on a trip to England in the 1940s, around WWII time, Ghandi was supposedly asked by a Brit, "What do you think of Western Civilization?" Ghandi is said to have replied something like, "Western Civilization? What a good idea. You should try it sometime." I'm afraid I feel much the same way about Christianity. Maybe we should try it sometime. The basic, simple, yet profound gospel/good word espoused by Jesus as I understand it - love your neighbor at any given moment (who's next to you right now?)... and to practice Love (God as a noun and a verb) by being loving is pretty much expressed in action, by will and choice. SORRY FOR THE LENGTH, I just couldn't stop after I re-read the emails!

Hee hee... I always felt the same way when we would get the talk about getting your paper towels from the dispenser before you washed your hands after using the bathroom... So you wouldn't drip water across the sink and get it dirty. Then, after you dried your hands with the DIRTY TOWEL you got directly AFTER YOU USED THE POTTY you should use that to wipe up any water marks you made on the sink. If you think it through, you just end up putting your potty germs you washed off your hands back on your hands and then spread them all over the sink, thereby spreading them to every single person who used the bathroom after you! So much for all the cleaning!

I tend to lean towards the idea that the conscience is a part of God within us – a spark left over from the original way He created us in His own image. Romans 2:10,11, 14, 15 (KJV) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) I had a very long email conversation with some hardcore athiest and fundamentalist Christian folks a while back about morality and conscience... it was very enlightening... I will see if I can come up with some of the remarks from my old emails. It was brilliant!

Mexicans ROCK!! :P

That's scary, since I have relatives who's eyes are so dark they appear black... you can't even distinguish the pupils from the iris. Could they be devil spirit possessed? Or just a different color?

But weren't they created in the image of God? They had His spirit within them at the time of the sin. Since it was built in to them at the point of their Genesis, wouldn't that be considered internal? Just a question. Thanks!

I couldn't resist after seeing Mr and Mrs B's handles. Reminded me of an old advertisement I saw in a friend's bathroom back in college. "Is your bathroom breeding bolsheviks? Employees lose respect for a company that fails to provide decent facilities for their comfort." From my experience and the experience of family and friends, seems like a there's a lot of bathrooms breeding bolsheviks at twi... Newly married couples not having their own bathrooms, telephones in the halls with no privacy, lack of internet, too many work hours... Not to mention FAMILIA!! and CHARD!! Not quite my picture of the More ABUNDANT Life... How about you? **edited to add poster image**

Or someone not your wife... preferably young and cute.... And a good reason for a motorcoach, complete with dirver, huh? SAFETY FIRST!!!

I can't believe I have never heard of that book, Darth! I was involved in twi for the majority of my lifespan. It must not have been available for very long. Thanks again, all for the post! I like them VERY much!! :wub:

Wow! What a thread! In light of all of these thoughts, a section of scripture (probably mentioned before) that has really helped me recently has been Romans 14 from "The Message." I never remember Romans 14 ever being taught before: "Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with - even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. For instance, a person who has been around for a while might well be convinced that he can eat anything on the table, while another, with a different background, might assume all Christians should be vegetarians and eat accordingly. But since both are guests at Christ's table, wouldn't it be terribly rude if they fell to criticizing what the other ate or didn't eat? God, after all, invited them both to the table. Do you have any business crossing people off the guest list or interfering with God's welcome? If there are corrections to be made or manners to be learned, God can handle that without your help. Or, say, one person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of his own CONSIENCE. What's important in all this is that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God's sake; if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for the prime rib; if you're a vegetarian, eat vegetables to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli. None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It's God we are answerable to - all the way from life to death and everything in between - not each other. That's why Jesus lived and died and then lived again: so that he could be our Master across the entire range of life and death, and free us from the petty tyrannies of each other. So where does that leave you when you criticize a brother? And where does that leave you when you condescend to a sister? I'd say it leaves you looking pretty silly - or worse. Eventually, we're all going to end up kneeling side by side in the place of judgement, facing God. Your critical and condescending ways aren't going to improve your position there one bit: 'As I live and breathe, God says, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will tell the honest truth that I and only I am God.' So tend to your knitting. You've got your hands full just taking care of your own life before God. Forget about deciding what's right for each other. Here's what you need to be concerned about: THAT YOU DON'T GET IN THE WAY OF SOMEONE ELSE, MAKING LIFE MORE DIFFICULT THAT IT ALREADY IS [emphasis added]. I'm convinced - Jesus convinced me! - that everything as it is in itself is holy. We, of course, by the way we treat it or talk about it, can contaminate it.... ...Cultivate your own relationship with God, but don't impose it on others. You're fortunate if your behavior and your belief are coherent. But if you're not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistent with what your believe - some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them - then you know that you're out of line. IF THE WAY YOU LIVE IS INCONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE, THEN IT'S WRONG. (Romans 14:1-14, 22-23)

Thank you all for your kind suggestions and encouragement!! I think they will all help immensely. I came to the realization a couple of years back that I needed to get back on track with my creative endeavors, and I learned fast that I needed to work on them discreetly... I had been working on a novel at one point, but was told by someone I greaty respected that I needed to look at why I wanted to write? What was the profit? How would it glorify God? Since it was just a NOVEL with no specific POINT or PROFIT other than being enjoyable, I stopped. Picked it up again a few years later and realized it was actually not half bad, but when I tried to continue writing, it would only come out in spurts, because I kept trying to cram some sort of biblial lesson into it. I still have the manuscript sitting somewhere. I should pull it back out again. Thank you all for helping!

From the last time I attended a "do", it was the same music.... and the one before that, and the one before that. Didn't even change the order of the songs... I can't even listen to "Unforgettable" anymore. Heard it toooo many times. Anyone get the last album put out? Don't worry if you didn't, same songs as the last 5.

Just can't stop laughing about that one! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yep, in the WAP foundational class... I remember it well... He found some articles on methane gas being trapped in ice crystals at the bottom of the ocean along continental plates. He then tied it in with the whole snow being explosive thing and how VP had gotten revalation about it. I never was sure how methane in the bottom of the ocean tied in with snow, but whatever. edited for spelling

ABUNDANCE!!! (sorry, Tourette's is acting up again....)

Vague? What? Oh... Do you mean that they didn't use enough of the approved words? Maybe they didn't prevail tremendously in the promised land of the triumphant victory while living sanctified? PREVAIL!!

I have had a bit of a problem as a formerly creative individual since my experience in twi... Seems a bit hard to let go and really allow myself to work creatively on anything in the past couple of years. Anybody else have this problem? or am I the only one? I find it hard to even get to the point of letting my mind wander a little bit outside the lines, and this is coming from a formerly prolific writer (posts online DO NOT COUNT), painter, poet, and singer... The only time I seem to be able to think outside my box is while driving, because I can't be working on something else in the meantime... help?