AJern

Man, Christian Cloud Abraham can write (in reference to the writing machine) .. his descriptions are easy to draw from.. even down to listening to PFAL a hundred times before being able to be old enough to take it.. and making friends with sugar cubes.. I include styrofoam cups of coffee and cookies dunked during break.. man I'd be eyeing those cookies all through the first half of service.. i remember the coffee cans full of cigarette butts too.. anywho.. it's interesting how we were brained into believing that the cross was ridiculous, that the holy spirit dove was quid pro quo for such.. how little jesus was actually mentioned as almost a supporting cast member, our house had so many paintings and photos with VPW and way propaganda there was no room for Jesus.. much like wierwille twisted theocracy.. MOG desired to be MIG.. reminds me of the makings of an Egyptian dynasty.. wonder if he wore Fu Man Chu fingernails in the motorcoach.. I also wonder if VP ever had in meetings in the grove.. with the great owl.. I dunno alot of things never sat well even then

It's the whole "you believe it? then practice what you preach" Without a doubt it's one thing to fully comprehend something.. It's quite another to submit to your own understanding and obey such a selfless command, it ain't overnight.. nor does it get easier to do with time.. it's almost a guerrilla decision that has to be made.. I'm still working on it myself.. and some days are more successful than others.. seems life is a million little processes.. even in cases as child abuse.. even though I struggle profusely with agoraphobia and even speaking on the phone with people.. it's something I can attribute to my life as a waykid with parents so gungho in doing whatever it takes to fulfill ministry agenda .. and then later being the victim of my spouse's extramarital affairs.. I've got a little experience in the unforgivingness /forgiveness department.. I put myself purposely in environments where I'm not comfortable in I.E. on stage, working for fed ex, way of the master street preaching in process to help forgive the past.. How I look at it, constantly forgiving and pushing on every day is a slap in the face of the devil.. or even your physical adversaries.. grudges stunt growth..

forgiveness has nothing to do with trust tho waysider.. it's more internally personal really... it has nothing to do with that person.. it's what's wrestling within yourself.. and when you forgive it doesn't have to be audible or outwardly to the other party.. it's between you and God.. to stamp out bitterness and anger or whatever feelings the offense caused that's hindering life in that area.. whether the other party ever admits or is acknowledgeable of what they've done.. you find freedom in moving past it.. and moving on

My understanding of forgiveness is this.. Jesus asked God to forgive his persecutors because they were in essence helping to fulfill the prophesy.. someone had to do it, someone had to betray Christ, someone had to carry out the plan.. " What you meant for evil, God meant for good." In looking at it in that perspective, those who crucified him were brought into existence for that sole purpose.. the miserable comforters of Job were placed there to relay the message.. Even through the tumultuous evil perpetrated by VPW, LCM, H Allen and others.. there is a reason we all had to experience the devastating circumstances .. That's why we aren't called to judge others but love our neighbors.. and forgive.. even those who we don't find a reason to forgive.. that doesn't mean we have to accept the abuse given.. it simply means to let it go.. as someone put it earlier in the thread.. Holding a grudge just keeps that person(s) in power over that aspect in your life.. forgiving is growth and healing.. (easier said than done of course, cause I still have tons of resentment I'm working through on multiple levels) but I understand the principle..

"Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." That definitely ain't just some mindless cliche.. About six months I was reminded of the account of Joseph.. I used to liken hardships to Job.. but the thing Joseph said just resinates within my core.. "What you meant for evil, God meant for good" I too, lindy, for several years turned my back completely on God, resentful, bitter, confused jealous of others who seemed to have a well adjusted background.. blaming my parents for the ills in my life and my sisters lives.. blaming the way for my own shortcomings.. it really didn't begin to click until shortly after divorce papers were thrown in my face.. God began showing me the truth.. we're given seasons in our lives for growth, whatever it takes to humble us, bringing us to our knees to have to depend on him to help us to our feet again.. only through pride comes contention.. trials are meant to break the stronghold of pride.. not to just attack relentlessly without purpose.. the way really did f-up our understanding in that, but God is just, and correction is available in due time.. Everyone has a big significant tragic back story.. if they don't, they're a few chapters behind..

that's crazy, I was involved in that recording in 86 too.. I'm sure we knew each other.. I was in f11 also.. in first thru third grade as I remember.. I'm sure our stories would have a few parallels..

One thing I would definitely urge the parents of children who had to endure.. is to be patient and BE completely open to all questioning they have regarding the experience.. Do not minimize the pain under any circumstance.. many of us need to be able to vent the hurt on our parents to even begin the process to recovery.. No matter how far the parent has come or not in their own recovery.. We were brushed off our entire childhood, it wasn't okay to have emotions I.E. renew your mind, renew your mind, renew your mind, put off the old man, put on the new, that's just negative thinking, it doesn't matter how you feel, just do it.. holiness over happiness, 3rd aid.. "that thinking doesn't line up with the word" or the prized brush off "you must be possessed" Great. LET THE KIDS SPEAK!! Even if it's something you've all agreed to just sweep under the emotional rug, GET IT OUT. LOVE THEM. LOVE THEM. Do not chastise them for their bitterness. love them through the hurt. It does linger through adulthood. It's almost like being a child taken away from an abusive parent led away by the spurned spouse with their back turned dragging you by the hand, while you stare wide eyed at the monster who you were taught would always take care of you, always love you. Just be there for them. ( I am re-uploading the album; it's been months since I've been on the pc, dealing with an unwanted divorce, being daddy to my 2 precious babies, and finding God again through it all, the content of the album is honest, rough and not for everyone.. frankly it's another life in the ashes ( I have to wince at my own profanity at times).. but in the same a voice in need of air)

I was "born" into the way in 1977.. My parents met in a college twig.. so my life was TWI stamped from birth.. alot of stuff I guess stays deep down, only resurfaced by random accounts on here and pictures here and there.. I remember having S.I.T. on my bedroom door.. faking speaking in tongues to please my parents.. picking between three rehearsed tongues.. mostly shanta, kalanta, veche, and interchangeable interpretations.. carrying around retemories in my back pocket.. the phrases: "3 x 5s", "not walking", "possessed", "submit", "off the word" "twig", "mark and avoid" staples in my speech still to this day if I'm not paying attention.. getting the president of the USA and VP weirwille confused alot, looking up to LCM like a superhero, athletes of the spirit being cooler than GIJOE.. seeing my mom and dad pretty much only at twig.. family time was never secular.. never ordinary events, for a long time.. life completed utterly saturated in the way.. believing beyond a shadow of a doubt you were better than everyone else outside the confines.. seeing your sister kicked out of the house at 16 because she was now considered mark and avoid.. later on the verge of the same, living "double-minded" right? So desperately wanting to please your parents but despising the institution completely, even "knowing" that you're one of the chosen, born to walk perfectly.. you secretly want to reject it all.. risk it all by walking outside of "household protection" to just want to be normal.. finally at 19, a man breaking down in the middle of a courtyard at a "household event", even unable to walk thru the doors because of a deep seated frustration for way-consumed parents, and realizing that I finally didn't care anymore what any of them thought.. and walking away from the foundation of my entire life to FREEEEEEDOOOMMMM (in a sense).. parents finally left once allegations became fact concerning LCM.. not until we had to be subjected to the corps commanded to be free of debt, your children's unruliness can have you fired from full time corps, homo alert.. HIGH SCHOOL WAS AWESOME!! Thanks LOY!! If you were a child in the way, well..hmm punctuation came correct there... YOU WERE A CHILD IN THE WAY. No child came out unscathed.. at 30.. I've finally been able to set foot in a church, be comfortable wearing a cross.. be open to trinitarian logic, etc. There was alot of abuse in residence.. it's tough even for most of your life being subject to anyone older than 18 could haul off and hit you with a spoon or whatever they felt the need.. in whatever mood they were in.. at any time.. raised by a village of people who got no business claiming they're chosen gems.

man.. evan was my basketball coach in children's camp in 85 or 86.. scott mosqueda taught me and anthony garcia to break dance to break thru and conquer for the peach gong show.. one of my sisters prolly knew you, Jennifer Jernigan.. Ted williams and the mosquedas lived here in austin for some time.. lost track of ted some years back.. angela gilmore last I heard which was several years ago was living in florida.. it's always a good thing to find happy memories in the tragedy..

Last I heard huffmans live outside of austin, texas with the mosquedas.. your children's camp pictures are almost identical with mine.. except of course mine are all boys (sam is in that one jardinero, pm me and maybe I can scan it for you).. and I remember that HHH .. it was like candyland in the basement.. and I remember we were in the soap house learning how to knot a tie and box dance.. whoa things pictures bring back

wow.. all I can say.. front row middle.. white shirt blue pants..

OMG That coulda been me.. I think I threw up in my mouth alil bit.. yeesh

The answer to the core question is the obvious stereotypical.. "Never". No individual on the face of this planet has an identical mindset, it is impossible for any 2 people on this planet to lead the same life, even "identical" twins are instilled with different chemical components.. So therefore, the truth will always be customized to the individual, because we all have different walks and need whatever truth that is to pertain to us. We had it rammed in our heads daily, "MAKE THE WORD YOUR OWN" The single most hypocritical phrase to proceed from the mouths of a cult, me thinks. But, no matter your intentions, you can never force someone to believe the same EXACT way as you, or the next.. eerily similar yes, but whatever portion that person needs to skew, will be brought about in their interpretation justly. It can be argued however by statistics, somewhat, of WHAT could be "right" is how the majority of umbrella spiritual philosophies camp a certain point. But alas, like any and every idea that cannot be proven by concrete scientific data embossed in 12 inch glass behind a velvet rope, this is all IMPO...