Nero

When I was going they said that there was water around the universe like a womb. God then took the water and dumped it on earth to kill everyone. Then he sucked it back up again after the flood and said he wouldn't do it again. I do remember them speaking of devil spirits - he sent the ones he defeated into the waters around the universe.

I'm not sure all the fine details now. I'm almost curious enough to ask my family but I think that would give them the wrong signals.

It may be in the Bible but it is literally impossible to have dew with no water cycle in play.

Exactly! I was wondering how that could even be true. There would be no plants or animals or lakes or anything without rainfall.

Is it one of those non literal teachings or something that was messed up in translation?

I guess I'm coming at this from a non biblical point of view. I mean there is literally no way that's true. Unless they are saying God decided to create evaporation at that exact moment during the flood.

I'll need to read it again just to see rottie but even if it is I won't be able to believe it.

My brother brought this up today and reminded me of a teaching the way had when I was a child (they still teach this). He said that before Noah - there was no rain. There was just dew? I know this is complete and utter bs. No plants or animals could survive on just dew! I don't even remember how they came to this conclusion. Does anyone else remember being taught this?

I can see my mom paying for my kids to go to a class. I'll try to talk to them as they get bigger. My son is only 2 and I always worry about what I should say without making myself sound disrespectful towards my family.

I'll try to explain to him how he should expect to be treated.

I'm not still involved and I was raised in it. It was both hard and easy to leave. It was harder to leave because I grew up in it and most of my family was involved. It was easy because I saw all the hate and bs over the years.

I'm kind of terrified my own kids will get involved because of my mom and siblings. My kids won't grow up in it - they won't know any better. I'm glad they won't have my experiences growing up but I think it will put them at a disadvantage. My mom makes our horrible time in TWI sound magical.

I'm kind of hoping TWI will just die out at some point but I'm also worried about off shoots sucking my family in afterwards.

I can imagine it but I can't if you know what I mean. I can imagine being in that hell hole doing those things but I can't imagine staying sane very long. My brother mentioned going on staff during the advanced class because they promoted it. That was when I was still in and I still thought it was a horrible idea.

My parents were in the corps and on staff during vps rein. I think they left after cm because... Well it was cm. I'm so glad I didn't have to grow up there.

My mother talks about that time like it was so magical. When she told me stories it seemed more like indentured servitude. My dad did outdoor work while my mom with a bunch of other ladies were treated like maids in vps house.

I really do wonder what went in their minds at that time.

3 months with nothing but TWI materials. I can't imagine a more boring time of learning absolutely nothing/lies. Maybe he should have suggested trying to crack open your bible and just read through instead of learning about specific verses that fit their agenda.

Ooh yeah, they are watching her. When she went to a big meeting they were following her around and giving her the third degree. It was when she was first getting involved again. She thought nothing if it of course - it's what they do. She must have given them my address because I got a letter from them. Talk about feeling sick!

I may be m/a or my spouse. Or at least on some watch list. They seemed particularly interested in my family. I wasn't very quiet near my exit on how much I disliked them. They thought I was a poor influence on my brother. He lived with a pack of them and they tried to cast demons out of me and my spouse and treated us like interlopers (we were invited there).

My own mother went along with the m/a to one of her best friends. I found her son once and thought mom would like reunite with her... Nope.

How awfull but so like them. Getting ticked off over people eating ice cream. When I was taking the advance class a while ago our group leaders who just graduated said they had like 50 bucks a month now? Or maybe it was 40. They said their family bought them gift cards for restaurants because they wanted them to have something good to eat. They couldn't use them of course or they would be breaking the rules.

The lady was nice, very cheerful and loving. Her husband was a bit of a sourpuss but a decent guy.

I went to church for the first time today. It was wonderful. My spouse was happy. I told my mom and she's seemed happy too. I think we've finally worked things out. Thank God!

Unlike many churches who are deeply invested in their communities with food drives, charitable giving, homeless shelters, families in need, missionary outreach, etc......twi was/is a world of words and classes. Even classes are revamped when mogs are ousted from their ranks. Oh, you sat thru the advanced class? But, but.....that was martindale's advanced class. There's a new one now. So, you need to arrange your calendar in May to sit thru the newly improved class. And, the registration fee is only $450.

Plus hotel... Because even though you have friends and family to stay with you have to go to the hotel because they say so... Making the advance class cost a thousand or so. They are still doing this even for their regional meetings.

Isn't it strange that regular churches give their followers classes or catechism on their beliefs... For free?! Heck, they even post summaries for free on their website. What a concept. TWI wasn't happy just sucking 15 percent of our earnings, they needed extra money on classes just to be taught what we're supposed to believe.

She's delusional. There's a thread here somewhere about them doing almost exactly that to an entire state recently. They may use different terminology now but it's exactly the same thing.

Really? I didn't think they could afford to lose that many people. I want to read that thread now.

I figured they wouldn't change.

I guess it gives me some hope that if my mom is that ignorant about what's going on then maybe she isn't as involved as I thought.

I feel like my, if you could call them extended family never left as well.. all of the old doctrines are still well set in place, including mark and avoid and willful ignoring. Even after they left or got kicked out years ago.

My mom says they don't have mark and avoid anymore - but then again she didn't think it was around when vp was in charge. He was before my time but it sounds like it was just a quieter process.

I remember one time we all had to wear red shirts and stand as a group in the shape of a heart so he could see us when Ambassador One flew over. Wonder if he even looked.

I remember when each twig had to make him a Christmas card and I stayed up until the wee mornings to make our twig's card. I wonder if he even looked at it. (oh, and by the way, I was reproved by Divine Design for using their markers).

I had to make one for CM. I spent weeks on it and had to change the design 3 times when they didn't like it. I actually got yelled at a few times. At a fellowship they reavealed the card they were going to use - a traced clip art picture of a boat a lady did. No one told me they weren't going to use mine. It was hard not to cry during the meeting. I think I was twelve at the time?

NERO!

I feel your pain. My mum is still in TWI.

The bottom line is your mom NEVER LEFT.

She just didn't like the conditions before.

In essense, she never took off the Way colored glasses. I am surprised she got through any other church service ( I guess it was more aligned with way beliefs other than mainstream religions).

She is comfortable. She wants COMMUNITY. This is what she knows. Since she isn't an independant thinker, she doesn't question the doctrine much, because it probably worked for her. It's a very ego-centric doctrine. YOU are in control. In most religions, there is a certain 'uncertainty' there, that we ARE NOT in control. Many people don't like that feeling.

She wants back the comfort of being with those who believe like her and and the control it gave her...and as long as there is no ''yelling/abuse/lawsuit/" going on, then, she'll be there.

Take heart. Just love her as your mother, and be clear that you don't believe the doctrine because it's full of holes.

Every time you bring up a ''people'' issue it can be used against you. We are all sinners. Every religion has crazy's. Every religion has problems. Every religion has doctrinal issues.

You can't change her mind, but you can change you and your reaction to her choices.

Peace,

bliss

I'm sorry your mom is still in TWI Bliss.

That is so true. My mother (and other TWI peeps) tell me that they were people - not the organization itself. Even though the organization itself encourages people to be awful to one another. I think telling my mom I believed in something else than her religion is what was so upsetting. In a way she is not so different from any parent who is very invested in their religion. I've seen tons of posts on different religious boards from parents horrified their kid might stop being:Mormon, catholic, baptist, or any number of other religions.

We're getting along pretty well now. I think she's calmed down.

We never really got to listen to the tapes with cm much. When we did my dad watched to it before hand and had his thumb on the mute or power button. I didn't realize cm cursed so much until he was gone and my mom told me about it.

I am concerned. I think after he was born I realized I couldn't just ignore TWI. If I don't teach him to think for himself and differing viewpoints about god he might end up in TWI or some other cult.

I'm not really into debating with her about scripture - so no worries Twinky. I know nothing I say to her will change her mind anyway. I just want her to know that even if I'm not in TWI it has nothing to do with her and it doesn't mean I don't love her.

Thank you for sharing Wolf. It is good to remember things I was taught and why they were wrong. I enjoyed reading your posts.

I should have bolted when, in session #5, it was revealed to me that I had been duped into taking the class via "date and switch".

That's how my dad was brought into TWI.

My parents should have bolted after their children were treated badly for the umpteenth time.

I bolted at the right time. I was with my spouse and little brother. My spouse was taking their first class. It was embarrassing. My little brother left class after a week - disgusted. My spouse stuck with me and we spent most of our time during the breaks laughing about how creepy the instructors were acting and how homophobic they were (I mean - wow - some of the things they said). I'm so glad we stuck it out - the last day they made fun of the guy who had gone to every class but the last. He had brain cancer and seizures and it was a miracle he was even there. They laughed about him and how he didn't believe enough to be there. They even had a mini fellowship teaching about it.

That was it. The last straw in a long line of uncharitable behavior.

There is no defending that. I didn't want to. I'm glad I left then. There was no doubts.

I threw a lot of things away. I think I kept a few books - ones my father wrote in and gave to me. I need to look through all of my old books - I might have a few syllabuses lurking in a box somewhere. I don't know if I would keep them forever but I think I would like to read through them knowing what I know now.

Was the Christ inside him able to get money back from the people who cooked the pizza? Now that would have been an interesting conversation.

I've worked in customer service most of my life, I've heard something similar before. It's very hard to keep a straight face and be helpful without laughing. At least they didn't eat it all before Jesus told them that it was bad.

In particular,

the NASB is an excellent choice for this.

It's a hit among ex-twi'ers because it has the italics- which is the only legitimate reason

to prefer the KJV anymore. It is a word-for-word translation, which is the same approach

as the KJV. It is greatly superior to the KJV all other ways except nostalgia and

dramtic reading. It takes advantage of textual discoveries made in the last 2 centuries,

and it uses a consistent translation of words, where you have to spend less time ferreting

out in the Greek when a meaning changed because of translator bias- word A is translated

word 1 very consistently (not perfectly, of course, but much closer than the KJV.)

I've seen it lauded by scholars not familiar with twi- although they preferred other

versions for their own reasons, they complimented this one overall.

If you want to shock her, you can use her Greek Interlinears to show how the NASB doesn't

make the mistake the KJV does in talking about Jesus in early Luke-

which is one of 2 passages from the Gospels that shows that twi's doctrine about abortion

being ok because before 9 months it's not a baby is completely false- if one actually

reads the Bible without bias and without a KJV.

If you don't have the references handy for that, let me know and I'll lay it out simply.

(I've done it at the GSC before at some point.)

Oh, I have to really go though that slow and read through again. I remember the abortion being okay in TWI. I bought into it when I was young and stupid. Now having a son myself I feel ashamed of ever believing that. I can't believe my mother - who loved her kids would have ever agreed with what they said. I don't think she did really - because she said she couldn't imagine having an abortion herself. I remember having a conversation about when my son could see inside the womb or dream and it seemed to bother her a lot. Maybe it made her think about what they said.

Maybe, Nero, that's a way you could get to reach your Mom? Show/read to her from a different version, Hey, look what I discovered! (It might even be something close to one of the dreaded "literals"). After all, TWI never banned use of other versions of the Bible. They said that more study materials were available for KJV. And of course since VPW recorded the original PFAL class, some good new versions have been produced (some awful ones too). KJV is not "God-breathed."

I like Holman Christian Bible which is very readable, in sensible comprehensible English, yet seems to give nuances close to (what I understand as) the meaning of "original" words. NAB is good, RSV/NRSV are good too.

Maybe they banned the use of different bibles only where I was. I remember it was highly discouraged to read from a different translation. My mom was a bit weirded out by me using the bible my friend gave me but was happy I was at least trying to read the bible after telling her I was pretty much an atheist.

I'm so thankful that I'm free. I don't have to walk between the lines, so to speak. I don't have to eat frozen fruit for breakfast on a bleak cold February morning. I can wear a cross if I want to. (gasp!) I can go shopping alone. My Wednesday evenings are my own. I know you've figured out where I'm going with this.

Happy New Year.

Happy New Year Mr. Linder.

I had totally forgot about the cross! I had gotten one when I was younger because I thought it looked nice. Oh my god, how many times did I get chewed out for it?

I have a cross on my name badge at work now and no one says anything. Wonderful. :)