wing

spinning wheel david clayton thomas (blood sweat & tears)

Mark... I dunno. could've been Bob. He played an evening of his own stuff at the way CULTural center (the old church in new bremen). You may be right about yarddog, instead of junkyard dog. He told a story about the nickname at that show, a dog that protects a junkyard? I wouln't have a clue about the sound of a second recording (he did ask me to play some mandolin for him at a recording session, that was to take place up north -chicago, or maybe in michigan - I passed on the invite for... I don't remember why). I don't know anything at all about an Acts 29, ... I was probably long gone. Don'tWorryBeHappy would likely remember at least his name, ... if he sees this and wants to chime in.

WordWolf, and JustSayNo..... Thanks guys love ya's _ing

Sorry dooj .... I don't know anything about that. Seems to me like they didn't stay around for very long. thanks again for helping out with the name.

I wish I were more computer savy... so that I could just post a link, but I did a google search on 'groovy christians of rye new york' and it returned, among other things, a published article called "My Cult Years" a personal history by John Seiffer. http://www.andretobias.com/cgi-local/display_col.pl?050720 In the article he quotes that it is his mom, speaking about him: "drugs I can understand, but this is creepy"

Now I See... You raise honest concerns about vic in his younger days. "... he had to be preying on women early on to be so bold.... perversions had to have started way back when he was young... he just ain't right, these actions ain't normal..." The early part of vic's life is pretty blank to us. For young adulthood, we've been at least a little misled about his schooling; then told that he simply 'left' church he was pastoring, merely because he made a choice to favor of da verd. I dunno what happened with him; but - what if he had been fired? or urged to leave over some stuff like this...? His personal history, given a part of 'twi - lore' is so one sided, skewed and spun. Lots of missing pieces. Aren't normal people (guys in leadership-teaching-speaking capacities) inclined to mention publicly of loving their wife? Or loving their kids? at least once in dozens of years? VP criticized his family, and publicly tolerated his wife. Aren't normal people inclined to admit to a least an occasional mistake? Or allowing that maybe just maybe a mistake could happen? VP criticized others, but not himself. I was so fooled, not only did I think he was normal... I also thought he set an example to follow. Time to pull away the curtain. Ex... 30+ years ago (although I thought I knew so much), I wish...

That is funny! Reminds me of my buddy, he sent in for an ordination from -yes- the back of a match book cover. They sent him a certificate. He used it to start up a prison fellowship ... way back when. It was even a TWI thing.

he was no pastor. he was no rock star.

Kris describe such an erie scene. Who greets a guest into their private quarters while wearing only a robe? Was he trying to be h*gh h*fner?

doojable: New Horizons! Thank you. waysider: Thanks! way to go! john m...... sometimes those names from long ago just tease my memory. 100% agree with you that vp's actions do not match those of one whose chief concern was the spread of the gospel. I know that money played a part. follow the money. always a motivator. I would not play that down. But his dander didn't get up much about money. He pretty much got things he wanted. (Even before the 70's growth spurt.) A lot of that with Harry's help. I think he may have used his brother. :( I wonder if there was maybe a quiet sibling rivalry that vic ultimately won? How carefully VPW guarded the things that affected his own self perception, and the precious perceptions of others about him. How carelessly he treated other things. When it came to money (even in the overall plaf loss-leader scam of TWI), the money maybe was sweet, but domination over people... surely that was sweet too. No doubt that some clergy ordinations became money makers. No doubt that some of them became money losers. But no doubt they all stroked that man-o-gawd ego, vowing their allegiance to his verd. A driving ego may explain a lot.

robes, much love to you and your family. very sorry for your loss.

Hi waysider, Hi GrouchoMarxJr, Hi Yanagisawa, I think that it was his pride / ego that motivated vpw more than money. The getting, keeping, and having of the upper hand in any possible way. Lots of examples come to mind. If vp ever wasted money, he never-never-never wasted the currency of his own self esteem. Vp regularly quipped against any egos in da vey purduction peoples ( I personally find that to be ironic) But, on another note: You mentioned so many localized groups. Do you happen to recall the name of that late 70's (or early 80's) quartet? they came from Chicago? (I think.) There were four guys (black vocalists, who sang to prerecorded tracks in a style kinda like 'earth-wind & fire'). and the song that vp hooked onto was a cover of "Celebration"? They were a 'from the field' musical group that vp brought into hq for a while, and did put on some ministry stages; they may have even done some touring for the ministry. Does anyone remember them? Reason I ask, is because of the quick and sudden demise they had when it came to VP's support for them. (I don't think I'm telling any secrets here...) Seems that one of those boys got caught up in a 'sex-on-the-road' experience that was made public, so VP cut em off and sent em home. Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? (no pun -or racial inference- intended) Was 'Hope' the name of that group out of Columbus? the ones that recorded album 'O Theopholis'? John.... (forgot his name). I really liked what he did. Used to keep up with him, seems forever ago now. Ralph D also brought a guy in once. Great singer, writer, artist. Forgot his name too. nicknamed Junkyard Dog? I'm sorry that I lost track of him too... and alfakat .... thanks. hope that you and yours are doing well!

Someone who kept a journal would know better than me (even though I was there) ... ya want a guess? for fading memories sake? either 78, 79, or 80.

VP does not deserve any of the cordial niceties that he his granted around here. But he does deserve much worse than merely being 'exposed' in the open light of day. What if this were your little sister telling you about this? What if it were your little brother? Even this many years gone by? I'll just call him a mean bully, ... to be nice about it. No way in all of creation is God ever gonna be happy about these things being done by VP. Pawtucket - I just listened to Losing the Way part 2 (but I guess that you can already tell that...) Thank you very much for your efforts. wing

:) "ps. something i would really enjoy is if someone would type their tongue out and we could see if we could get a translation going......" sounds like it could be some fun. and you just gave me a really good chuckle.

Sunesis, I read your post and think: "yeah, and tell 'em where he can shove it too!". But alas,... who could speak to vic like that and survive? ("survive" meaning: being able to stick around long enough to talk to anyone else about it afterwards.) I'm happy to hear that you got to voice a little support to PV; such a tender and gifted guy.

Thanks Thomas. There are missing pieces to the puzzle, even if you were there to see with your own eyes. Not lots of 'splainin going on then. Lots was left to your 'spiritual' awareness (whatever that meant?). I appreciate your imput. Hope you are ok with my curiousity too. Every little bit could help. Good luck about 'digging for the truth' (isn't that a tv show now?). Since you mentioned that he "modified by his personal spin of theology", I was saying the same thing -I guess- only I was asking if anyone had clues about those changes....?

I gotta say that I have no memory of an ordination process in twi like Thomas Loy B... described. Perhaps he had a different experience? Maybe that was a different timeframe? Maybe I was just in a different twi? The process, if that's what we call it, was subject to change, again and again. The criteria changed too, imo. But what motivated vp in his selection? Did he tack it to deacons, or elders, like the epistles describe? Maybe, but if so, why the variations? Perhaps there is some student of twi history out there who can map a consistent path, accounting somehow for exceptions. vp really didn't have to account to us anyway, did he? Does anybody here remember the very public (... ok, is was a corps week thing; but still...) fiasco that P*ul Verg***o experienced? About his ordination, from the main stage, vp spoke against it: "prove why I should ordain him!" kind of stuff. Comments from the crowd were allowed. vp was antagonistic - at least to my perception. But P*ul took it, a humble guy. and he was ordained. (He is accessible online -I think - selling his music.) What was up with that? was we 'casting lots'?

Thank you Exxie

Now I See, I'd forgotten that that was the style of praying! ...uggh, but your right. If I'm praying now, it's in my own language; and it's not to tell Him what to do anymore. The SIT thing still bothers me, cuz it became such a dominating focus. Sometimes I think that I was sooooo fooled to have SIT so much -- meanwhile those needful prayers that never got uttered, cuz I was too busy 'o-shanta-ing'

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This is great disscussion: clergy - ordained in der vey, how? or why? Which leads to opening the distinct possiblity that the early growth surge of der vey maybe had been hijacked from other more simple (more guileless) movements? Which leads to an earnest curiosity, how could this have happened? surely there had to have been some good in it? How did we, as people, fall into being a part of it at all? Even if you were there in the heat of it, how to explain it? Thinking for yourself (rationally) was not encouraged EVER: But renewing your mind to der vey was. And what about those lock boxes? It's hard to now track any of those clear thoughts since they were daily suppressed for so many years! I think that vic did have a plan. I think he was smart enough to have had one. I cringe today seeing hints of it surface. For example: Sunesis recently quoted Jm Doop expressing that vic treated him like a son. Now that may not be a bannered front page headline for some of you. But it is a vp tactic. Maybe he did it to you too? If vic could find a 'weakness' in you, then he'd try to test it, or to turn it around as a challenge; to obviate it into something that he could use, maybe make it better for you? (and a strength? well, he'd just give you a challenge to use it.) (Maybe some of you were taught to sell the class in this manner too?) I know he did it with me. Early on. Asked me to think of him as my father (he did know that I did not have one growing up). He told me to call him Dad whenever I spoke with him. At the time I thought it such a privilege, ooooo. I was aware of only one other person (also a close friend of mine) that vic was doing that with. But now I think that there were probably lots of others. It's creepy now, especially with finding out about what some of the women have gone through; but then it was so special. . It is just my opinion, but I do think that if vp thought you had some quality, or some possession, that he could possibly use; I think he'd find a means to get it from you. Today, as I now reflect on these long gone events; I am starting to look for what STRINGS WERE ATTACHED TO HIS (veiled?) KINDNESSES?

You're right RumRunner

more lines? " who sailed to sea. And he told us of his life..."

Hi Oakspear, I guess that you're asking me for names of way clergy ordained in the variety that I posted earlier? Other people here will know lots more about this than I do, and I'm not really trying to remember or even keep track of this stuff. So I'm not going to be any kind of authority for ya. If Don Wierwille was a way rev, ok, I can't say. He was always Don to me. "Some folks married into it (by becoming a spouse to an earlier corps grad)" When I wrote that as a part of my last post, I was thinking specifically of M*nty H*bbs. Others also come to mind, for example the recently widowed St*ve L*wder; and for that matter, one of the names that you mentioned in your post: T*m L*lly. Any of these guys may have found it on their own... who am I to say? Tom (& M*ke F*rt) spent their interium corps year at hq working together, often working with me. These two chatted alot about their future ministry plans and goals, getting ordained was high on their list. I will say that M*ke talked (joked?) about his marriage selection maybe helping him there. I think that there were assignments that carried a rev title, and not all of them 'on the field' ... at hq and other root locales, being a department coordinator could do it. You mentioned J*e C*ulter, maybe he wasn't, but - when I met him in 76 there in his av rm at the back of the brc (and for what it's worth, I liked him ) my memory has the rev being on his name tag even then. The names don't matter so much, IMO. But how vp went about it, or why, and that the standard qualifying criteria seemed to vary so much....... what was he thinkin? And by "he", I mean vp.