OneWhoIsFree

Well, no not really. You do not have the strength in your flesh to change your flesh. That's like trying not to have brown eyes when you do have brown eyes. You might "pretend" to behave differently, but the lusts and the desires that drive the behavior are still in the heart and what's in your heart will come out eventually, no matter how hard you try to mask it and cloak it with works of the flesh. Besides, unless you love God and care about what He thinks, why would you stop to think that you need to change your behavior anyway? This simply is not the testimony of scripture brother. There was a time in Saul's life when he did not have the spirit. Then God gave it to him and he could prophecy. Then he flaked out and lost the spirit. Actually, Moses said he wished all of God's people were prophets and that they had the spirit (Num. 11:29). Why was this Moses' desire? Because the people didn't have the spirit. Because of scriptures like mentioned above. Who says? Of course it is. That just affirms the truth of scripture regarding the deceitfulness of man. This in no way casts a shadow on God, Christ or their movement to save mankind known as Christianity. If the Bible is telling the truth, then it is the only way. But if one believes the Bible is a joke, then he has no standard to hold himself to and can tell himself whatever he wants to in life to make himself feel better. Plenty of people don't. That doesn't mean it's not the truth. If that's true, then Jesus Christ is a nobody and wasted his time. Neither is the case. Plenty of people who think they're enlightened who know nothing about God nor themselves. Love ya cman, :) Free

Belle, I think you miss the point. Again, a person is denied entrance into the kingdom of God because he is guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness. And anyone who has walked any length of road on the spiritual journey to God with honest self-evaluation knows in his heart of hearts what a wicked sinner he is no matter how much he struggles and strains to reach complete obedience to God, he fails miserably. Complete obedience??? Ha!! Try even keeping half of God's commands with any type faithfulness throughout your life. The flesh is very staining and at many times, overpowering. This is the reality of ALL the descendants of Adam. No matter what belief system people may wake up one day and find themselves following, they are all guilty of rebellion and evil against the true God and his neighbor. This is why Christianity is the only way because Jesus Christ is the only person who shed his innocent blood in my place therefore allowing me to walk away from God's judgment without perishing, which is what I deserve. The fact that Mayans called their god by a name other than Yahweh or Elohim is irrelevant. Besides, those are Hebrew names which other nations across the world, naturally would not have been familiar with (at least in the time of the Mayans). What they "called" God was not important but what they practiced in his name was. A Mayan might have looked at you and said his god created all things. But if he turns around says that god commands that they offer human sacrifice, then it is clear that they are not following the true God. And in offering human sacrifice, they are guilty of crimes against God and humanity. The Jews themselves had the "correct God" with His personal commandments and instruction. But that didn't matter to God. Just like the Mayans, what they called God was not important but what they practiced was. And they failed miserably. So have Buddhists, so have Hindus, so have Muslims and every other pagan society out there. Isn't that the point of Christ? In spite of all man's wickedness, God just seems to have a soft spot for us. Look at the OT where we see God fighting for thousands of years, patiently working generation after generation waiting, looking, searching for men and women to trust and to teach and to love all to protect and preserve this bloodline that would lead to a man who would enable God to righteously withhold His wrath and show mercy to us all. Far from being a God of "intolerance", look at what great lengths He has gone to in order to freely give everlasting life to anyone who calls on Him. No wonder when people turn their noses up at God's offer there is no place for them in the kingdom. What does it matter whether a person is a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist or anything else? It's all lame, it's all the works of the flesh and in the days of judging, it will not stand. It is clear to me that we are all wicked and none of us deserve any mercy and if someone doesn't conclude that about their own life, they need to seek the Lord for wisdom. But God who is rich in mercy.... For God so loved the world.... With all respect, Free

Belle, I always hope that we can communicate with honesty and lack of hostility since I am long done with the days of theological arguing. I will always respect your right to speak and I hope you will offer the same. You say my statements smack of egotism. Well that just depends on what your theology is. Look, if God doesn't exist, or if He does exist as some metaphysical ball of energy of whom we can never know anything about, then your accusation would be correct. It would be quite presumptuous of me to imply that anyone's behavior or belief system other than my owns is faulty, since we could never know for certain what the truth is. However, if there is a personal being called Yahweh who is who He says He is i.e. the creator, the originator, the giver of truth and one who will judge all men, then my statement would not be egotistical. I do not believe it is difficult to document that the bible speaks against homosexuality. But if God truly is the "Author" of it, then how is it egotistical to say to someone that what they are practicing is incorrect? For you to say that my statement is egotistical is presumptuous of you. Do you truly know my heart? If God doesn't exist, then everything is an illusion and the existentialists are correct. However if God truly does exist, then I would not be egotistical, I would be a defender of what God has spoken. Wouldn't I? How would that be egotistical? If someone is offended at what God has to say, that makes no difference to me. I have had to overcome the "uncomfortable" realities of my own sin and just what a wicked little person I can be and have been. Even if no one ever spoke out against anything anybody did or practiced, the words and instruction would still be recorded in the pages of scripture. That means Paul and Moses and Jeremiah and even Jesus himself would have to be accused by you of the same charge. I'm sure you know you can go to the gospels and find some pretty "egotistical" statements made by Christ himself. Well, they would be egotistical if he was a false Messiah, but since he was not, what he spoke was the truth straight from God. Did it matter that anybody got upset about it (which they did)? All I can say is that if God doesn't exist, in this matter, I am the fool. If He does exist, then you are the fool. All in fun!! :D Free

The real question is, does he witness to people while in the paint isle? Inquiring about home projects people are doing, are ya married, what do you do for a living, my name's Craig....yada yada yada. Sounds like a great job to have to move the Word. Do you think he's signing people up for the WAP? And more importantly, is he working with a fellow believer, someone who can help guard him from the adversary and protect him from devil spirits? Remember, 2 by 2? Just because he works at Home Depot now doesn't mean the adversary isn't after him full throttle. The adversary will never be happy until he destroys the MOG. ;) Free

So I'm sitting here trying to think up some cool topic that will get all kinds of responses, and I'm sitting here looking at all the threads thinking, my goodness, I just don't know what the hell to say anymore. I think that everything that can possibly be said or asked or pondered or debated about the Way International has been stated. Do you know how many threads I have seen called, "Athletes of the Spirit"? Do you know how many times I have seen a thread called, "The Good Things I learned from PFAL"? Do you know how many times I have seen comparisons made between VPW and King David??? I swear you guys everything that was, is or could possibly be has been debated and catalogued here at the Cafe. What's the point of my thread? I guess that I'm counting on all of you to come up with new topics because I just don't know what the hell to say anymore. I guess that leaves me...........free.

The fact of the matter is that if God exists and has spoken to us via the scripture, then He has spoken what He has spoken. The truth is the truth and was the truth long before I came around and darkened the earth with my shadow. People who label Christianity as "intolerant" are simply demonstrating their own lack of meekness and their intolerance for what God has to say about life. Christ said that people don't come to the light because they know their wickedness will be exposed. You can see why a homosexual might have a tough time coming to Christ because he knows God disapproves of his behavior and will be asked to change. He loving the sin, doesn't want to change and violently protects his idol by hurling insults at man and God. All will be revealed at the white throne. Free

Absolutely not. I am confident that I have studied the Word long enough on my own to know that simply having an attitude of trust in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what moves God's heart to have mercy on someone and to create them to be a child of His. What makes a man guilty to be thrown into the flames is his own wickedness and the sins he has brought forth in this life, not how much he knows about God (or more accurately, what he thinks he knows about God). I would say that I know quite a bit about God. But that statement is always relative because that may be true compared to the man standing next to me on the street, but the scripture says that "no man knows what he ought to know" and we all "see through a dark glass". Whatever a person thinks he knows about the Word is to be held with confidence, yet always ready to change in light of new understanding. This is meekness, and it is clear that nobody holds all the truth. Where you are with God in your understanding right now is where you are. If I ask you 20 years from now what you think about God, I'll bet you your understanding is much different (at least if you continue trying to grow). For someone to conclude that what they hold as the truth is so right on that he will harass, threaten and even murder fellow believers is insanity (church fathers hunting down "heretics"). A person doesn't perish because he believes or does not believe in the Trinity. Nor do they perish because they believe the dead are truly dead or because they believe they go to be in heaven immediately. A man perishes because he must answer for his wickedness, his crimes against God and humanity. Believing the dead are truly dead will not help you out in this situation. Only having the atonement of Christ's shed blood gets you off the hook. And this is appropriated to you only by trusting in the Lordship of Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead. So when I hear people say, "believe in the Trinity or you are a heretic and will burn in hell", I confidently roll my eyes and say, "whatever dude." <_< Free

HAPe4me, I knew Ernie Dahl back in the 70's and 80's. Who was Like a butterfly Kunkel? What song?

You know, heck I would prefer the CD. I assume they made some copies into CD. If anybody has it, I'll gladly just take a WAV soundbite converted to MP3 and emailed over of Mike V.'s monologue on the soundtrack. Anyone....anyone....? :-)

The Way International is such a complete and utter joke of an organization totally exposed for what it is. If anybody who left ever goes back, then I submit they did not continue in their pursuit of God after leaving. As a dog returns to it's vomit, so a fool returns to his folly. Free

Since leaving the Way almost 10 years ago, my doctrine and understanding of God has changed significantly. My image of God was of someone who could not legally encroach upon the matters of this world because it was legally owned by the adversary. But if we could struggle and focus and channel our mental energy on some mind picture (a.k.a. "believe"), that allowed God to supersede all of that in some way and God would come to our rescue. But if we didn't believe that somehow God's hands were tied and he could do nothing. What a sad understanding of the human journey to the spiritual IMHO. Many people out there believe that God is completely in control of every single event in human history and that nothing happens without God's sovereign approval because everything that happens is either done actively by God or by Him passively allowing it to happen. While I must say that I am not fully convinced of this position I am convinced that God is much more in "control" of things than I was acknowledging in my Way days. What is your view of God's control in this life? When you think about all of the bad things that happened in the way by VPW and LCM, to what extent were these things foreordained by God? I've always found it funny that for having tens of thousands of members all "filled with pneuma hagion" capable of operating all 9 manifestations, that all the sex and drunkenness and the reality of the abuse was kept hidden from so many of us for so long. It just seemed to take so long before the lid was blown open publicly on all of this stuff. You think God would have given revelation to somebody a lot sooner to help keep things clean? Maybe He did, but nobody listened. Or, perhaps He remained silent for some greater good. I guess it all depends on your theology. When Joseph revealed himself to his brothers and told them of their wickedness in selling him into slavery, he said that they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. We tend to complain about VPW and LCM and what they did and what they did and what they did. To what extent did God play a role? There's no question that ultimately, whatever God wants accomplished, will be. Just curious to all of your thoughts on this matter. :) Free

I can't believe it! I missed the ebay auction. I went out of town on Friday! I definitely am looking for the original version with Mike V. not the "snoring version", Don W. Well, if anybody happens to come across one or spots one online if you could contact me I would be so thankful!!! :)

Howdy all, does anybody know where I can get my hands on an audio cassette soundtrack of the production? I'll gladly pay. There's gotta be some out there laying around somewhere. Thanks! OneWhoIsFree

Misdirected in what way?

I have only met the man a few times. I have heard quite a few of his teachings from CES. I feel that I have learned quite a bit from him. It would be difficult for me to believe he is a man who doesn't care about God. And from those I have spoken to who know/knew him never have really anything bad they can say about him. What about anybody else here? Has anybody met him and to what of his character? I've never met this John Lynn. But it seems from personal testimonies that he is not a very well-liked man. I have thought about supporting CES at times because of what I have heard John Schoenheit share and express. But I also know that you can stand on stage and sound real holy and yet be a real jerk "off camera". I just don't know him well enough. Can anybody shed some light on this? Thanks, OneWhoIsFree

I was doing some browsing of old posts and saw that at one point there was some group in Belize that imported PFAL on DVD. However, that was a couple years ago. Has the Way stopped this? If not, does anybody know where I can obtain and/or purchase a copy...legally? With all these people who left the Way and with all this talk about the copyright stuff being questionable, there's got to be mass people out there holding on to it. So does anybody know who's got it? OneWhoIsFree